You're going to pretend the French League isn't a lower standard while Pogba is there just to prove a point?
Do you think maybe this is why someone might think you're suffering a bit of pro Pogba bias?
Pogba
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You're going to pretend the French League isn't a lower standard while Pogba is there just to prove a point?
Do you think maybe this is why someone might think you're suffering a bit of pro Pogba bias?
I could be wrong but I don't think I've read anything form anyone who doesn't think he's supremely talented and at his best, anything less than a really good player. I think after watching him every week for 5 years, we've seen a lot that is way off his best - a lot see wasted potential or at least someone that hasn't reached the heights and consistency his ability and talent suggest he could. You often see any criticism of him made out to be people saying he's 'shit'...it's just not the case - I think there are totally legitimate criticisms of him and that doesn't mean there's an "agenda" or that fans 'hate' him.
It's not all on him and he could certainly do with some better team mates but surely anyone can see he's a tactical headache and for whatever reason, we aren't getting the best out of him. The question is, does replacing him with better fits make us a better team than throwing money at him to stay? I don't know but I think it's a valid question.
Madrid with Modric and Kroos? They both started as attacking mids but moved to central midfield later on in their careers. And they were also both unbalanced until Zidane insisted on Casemiro to play behind them.
Barcelona as well had Xavi and Iniesta not only for Pep, but also for Enrique when he won the treble.
4-3-3 is a staple formation, and top teams have been trying to cram as much offensive talent into it as possible. There's no way that a 4-3-3 with 2 attacking mids is some sort of fantasy, it's been the winning formation for a while now.
Isnt Leicester with Ndidi Tielemans and Maddison in 2019 quite similar to Pogba and Bruno too
So Pogba was more or less our second best player last season?! That's flippin stupid as feck
Those people are like a fraction of 1% . 99% starts post about Pogba "He's obviously great player, but...". Which is exactly the problem with Pogba - what comes after the BUT, the conditions, the wrong partner, too much asked from him defensively, not a midfielder, not a winger, needs to play in three man midfield, next season we will see his full potential, he's the best player we have in fifa etc.
I don't think anybody would question his individual quality - and that's not the reason we're (most likely) willing to sell him. It's the question of tactical fit, as you said.
No chance. Ndidi is a defensive monster, Tielemans is very good all round midfielder. Pogba is poor defensively, while Bruno is very poor. This is a terrible mix whoever plays the DM role.
Well it's the same as pretending that Pogba now playing with McFred or an over the hill Matic is the same as playing with top midfielders like he has at Juve and France.
In fact the latter is worse because the PL is the toughest league in the world, so playing with lesser players will be highlighted even more so. But apparently 'we've done everything to fit him in.'
If were going to have a biased silly argument about Pogba it might as well be evenly biased on either side of the debate eh. Or alternatively lets acknowledge who he's been playing with in midfield here and I'll acknowledge Ligue 1 as vastly inferior to the PL.
Xavi? Modric? You never watch them don't you.Modric & Xavi are pretty much like Scholes, a CM who can play in midfield 2 of 442 or 4231. They are much more discipline during defensive transition and can read the game better, and they have world class ball retention which something neither Bruno and Pogba have.
Just because a player started as attacking mid doesn't mean every other attacking mid can develop to be CM.
So if you had 3 options. The first is to extend and make Pogba the highest paid player in the league. The second to lose him for free next season. The third to sell and get a DM this season. Which would you choose?
You're only emphasizing my point.
Modric & Xavi are pretty much like Scholes, a CM who can play in midfield 2 of 442 or 4231. They are much more discipline during defensive transition and can read the game better, and they have world class ball retention which something neither Bruno and Pogba have.
Just because a player started as attacking mid doesn't mean every other attacking mid can develop to be CM.
If even legendary players like Modric and Xavi had to play in a 3 man midfield with an extra body beside them (and a false 9 as well) AND a top DM behind them, then why should we expect Pogba to be able to match that playing in a 2 man midfield with a DM that's not a monster?
Sharing responsibilities should make things easier for everyone, so that even though Bruno and Pogba aren't as good as Modric, Kroos, etc, they can still have an impact since they'll have less of the defensive, offensive, and creative burden.
Why are you asking me that question when I never say anything about that.
Your point is we can still play in midfield 3 of 433 with two attacking mid like Bruno and Pogba without inverted full backs. And I said, it is never be proven that can work and the fact you use Modric & Xavi as comparison strengthened my point and weakened your point because Modric & Xavi are not known as attacking midfielder, they are known as central midfielder like Scholes. They are much more discipline during defensive transition and can read the game better, and they have world class ball retention. Therefore, Modric/Xavi creates balance in their midfield 3. Pogba and Bruno in midfield 3 have no balance.
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The problem here is that yourself and others have bought into this idea one player can fix another. They can't. A player can help the team overall but he can't sort out the guy next to him.
You could put whoever next to Modric or Xavi and they'll still maintain their personal standard. Xavi wouldn't suddenly start overplaying or slowing things down if you'd have swapped Busquests for Mctominay. The team overall would have suffered but Xavi wouldn't change.
So similarly Pogba isn't suddenly going to fix his shortcomings because he hasn't a different bloke next to him. He's been playing this way since he was 18.
Is anybody really saying we should expect Pogba to do that? I don't think so. We should however accept what kind of player he is and move on.
Another point is that if you play a midfield two, you don't really expect it to be super creative and goal threat.
So instead of judging midfielder by how many goals he contributed to, we should focus on how many goals the team has scored (and conceded) when he was on the pitch.
The bizarre thing for me is how can people praise Pogba for good game against Switzerland, focusing only on offensive game, and completely ignoring the fact he played in midfield two so had other responsibilities as well. That's not a good example of a fully functional midfield. Therefore I don't see top class DM as a remedy.
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That's obviously not true, or else there would be no use of transfers and team building. Sancho would be judged as is without giving allowance for AWB and McTominay combining with him, and similarly Maguire would be rated without care for the fact that he has Lindelof playing next to him.
Take Bruno as a concrete example. His performances in the Euros were far from his club level, but we all took into account the setup and teammates around him weren't ideal. Simple enough concept.
As for the bolded, that's purely hypothetical as current version of McTominay wouldn't be seen anywhere near any Barcelona or Madrid team. What isn't hypothetical though is that Pogba has generally shown better performances in a 4-3-3 or roles outside the double pivot. In fact a big reason why Ole got the job is he had seemingly "unlocked" Pogba by playing him in a 4-3-3.
None of the above. If I were in charge I would renew Pogba's contract and sign a top DM.
In addition to the signing of top CB to partner Maguire with (Varane ideally) I think we would have more than enough to make it work whilst getting the most from one of the best midfielders in Europe.
That is a far better solution for us a club rather than lose Pogba and end up having to sign a top DM eventually anyway.
Disagree. A team is not built on individuals, they have to compliment one another. That’s team building.
The same way we aren’t looking to put a big slow CB next to Maguire. We are looking for a player like Varane because he compliments Maguires attributes and that’s how you build a team. You counteract a defensively weaker midfielder with a defensively stronger player to partner him (IF there is a benefit to be had from doing so / there clearly is a benefit to having Paul on the pitch.)
Yes, Pogba has played this way since he was 18 and he has won things and is chosen by manager after manager for club and country - why? Becuase he’s an excellent player, nobody in the professional game will tell you different.
Balance!! One DM is not enough to create balance for Bruno and Pogba of midfield 3 in 433.
Xavi and Busquets create balance for Iniesta to fit in. Modric and Casemiro create balance for Kroos to fit in. It remains hypothetical that a DM, Pogba and Bruno can work together in midfield 3 of 433 without inverted full backs.
Average players have won leagues and reached cl finals before.
To be fair you're right that Bruno + Pogba + top DM is still a hypothetical as we haven't tried it yet.
To that I'd say:
1) We already have Bruno and Pogba
2) We need a top DM anyway.
So I see no reason not to buy the DM we already need, and then try it out so that it's no longer a hypothetical. The players you mentioned matured into top CM'S in the latter part of their careers (ie very late 20's/ early thirties). Comparing them to current Bruno and Pogba (26 and 28 respectively), who are much more dynamic but less controlling doesn't account for how the latter 2 will mature.
Have average players gotten into the FIFPro World 11?
Well I wasn't arsed to look for examples, but one fell into my lap. A bit of proof that these sentiments do indeed exist.
All it does is reduce the discourse since I'm now having to think of a "comeback" to the notion that Pogba's an average player. I acknowledge there's an issue with how he fits in, and with the contract situation moving him on may not be the worst idea. But posts like that leave no room for common ground and just results in more polarized discourse.
Varane will improve us because he's better than Lindelof. He won't change Maguire. He won't make Harry quicker or make him score a few more headed goals.
Likewise whoever we buy it won't make Pogba sort his faults out. They'll make the team better because hopefully they're better than Fred or McTominay.
I think the disagreement boils down to this. You think Pogba doesn't have any problems with his own game. He just needs things around him to change and one player can do that.
Others, myself included, think Pogba does have problems with his own game and actually that can't be changed by another player. Only he can change that.
It's a difference of opinion that won't ever be resolved. We've all watched him for years so opinions won't change.
Likely none of this matters anyway. He'll probably end up at PSG soon.
Even ignoring the fact we would need to spent another 150M to the 80 we've already spent on Sancho, I don't get one thing. You make it sound like "we just need a top DM" like they are right there for the taking. So who exactly is that?
I believe posters on the other side (like me) believe it might, just might, be possible to finally "unleash" Pogba with the right signings, but I also strongly believe it would be just easier to sell him and use those funds for someone who would just fit our game.
And hypothetical situation, we sign Rice, Pogba has a meh season and we meet again one year from now.
What are the chances Rice is going to be blamed for not being the right partner for Pogba?
I say if he stays, we will be having the same conversations over and over again.
Overrated players do.
Yeah but this post should have been in Henderson thread.
I don’t rate rice all that much but if we had purchased Rice as an example along with an improved CB to partner Maguire (a quick player allowing us to push higher up somewhat) and we still had the same issues I would then agree it better to move Pogba on.
The problem is we should have done that when we signed him and not sign Matic who was past it, granted we could have expected more from Matic but he’s gone. So we’ve not seen Paul partnered with a proper (actual) DM of decent quality other than that one period where Matic was decent which coincided with Pogba also playing well which supports my view imo.
Now the narrative is that ‘we have tried everything and he just doesn’t fit in.’ When in fact we haven’t tried everything other than signing a DM who was past it.
You must have seen Pogba before we bought him back, would you have partnered that player with the likes of McFred and expected anything other than what we’ve seen? I personally would have expected worse partnering him with those players in this of all leagues.
Not when we’ve known (or some did) what you need to get the best from him. He’s not Kante, hes not Rice, he’s a unique talent that offers you much more going forwards from deep, one that you have to partner with strong defensive players.
It’s just a feckin waste when we need a top DM regardless. Scott and Fred aren’t the answer next season, that’s what we’ve got to look forward to and it will stifle the benefit of new signings like Sancho becuase our engine room is basic, only word I can use.
I don’t know where this myth came from that you can’t play with only one defensive mid. It’s just about the norm with bigger clubs. Even Mourinho started quite a few games with Lo Celso and Ndombele. Rudimentary modern football tbh.
Fair enough, but you have to consider that in reality we have done rather good in terms of transfers in the last few years. Personally I wouldn't blame the manager for not finding a partner for Pogba. For sure midfield is our weakest area, but if I had to make a choice:
A) extend Pogba contract
B) sell Pogba, buy a DM
I would not hesitate to choose B. I feel both options (keep Pogba and sign a DM) are very unlikely, and still I would rather sell Pogba and get a CB.
In the end where we differ is I don't think Pogba can be a part of consistently performing midfield. I see him as the final piece for an already dominant team rather than a player that will make us dominant. At least not in the system we play.
Anyway, I still maintain if we pair Pogba with anybody who is not absolutely top class DM (I struggle to name one that's available so you can help me out here), next year we will still be complaining about the wrong conditions for Pogba to shine.
But the problem is when you have a midfield of DM and two AMs which are poor off the ball, plus forwards who don't really help out. We've even had a thread how little defensive work our attackers do. It basically means you need to have both midfielders first of all competent defensively and of the ball in general (buildup play).
Basically we need to consider we are very top heavy team. I struggle to name another club that plays like we do. I think many people don't realize how difficult it is to play in midfield two for a team like ours.
You could make a point we could play Pogba&Bruno +1 DM against the low table teams. What would probably be true, but we're actually having very good record with Fred and McTominay midfield against those teams anyway.
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No one try it because it has no balance. If there is balance, someone would have try it. Pep knew it has no balance, thus, he used inverted full backs to provide more balance. Pep's Man City with Silva, KDB and inverted full backs basically already prove your point wrong.
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All of those players work very hard off the ball, to get back into some sort of defensive shape.
Pogba does not. That is part of the problem. He's a central midfielder that doesn't believe he has to put in a shift defensively.
Pogba does. He is not particularly worse defensively than any of them, and defending is not where any of them excel.
My arthritic gran looks more mobile than Pogba when he cant be bothered.
He played well in a couple of matches but nothing like what was expected and with little or no consistency. The truth is he cannot be relied upon to play to a consistently acceptable level over a period of games or even over 90 minutes. Ive said it before, Pogba has all the ability and skills to be amongst the top players in the world, no argument. Pogba is 28 years old but his constant lapses of concentration during matches are more akin to an 18 year old and this immaturity negates all his good points.
I would sell him. The need to find the perfect blend of players to let him be effective severely limits our tactical options. We need players who can adapt and thrive even in adverse conditions. Give me a jeep anyday of the week which can push on through all kinds of terrain rather than a Ferrari which requires silky smooth asphalt to perform.
To be fair, without clouding judgement with any hate or favouritism, Pogba has been horrible in first half of season but was amazing in the 2nd half. It really depends on which periods you are looking at, or just the overall.
I’d give up Pogba by the way. Not that he isn’t good enough, but to field a team with Pogba and Bruno together, we probably need a very strong DM there to test it out, some one in similar level as Kante, which I‘m afraid isn’t available in the market.
To save all the trouble, I’d just sell Pogba, and buy Camavinga, and play safe with 2 DM system. At least Camavinga would offer us much more going forward than McFred while maintaining the same level of defending, and the big creativity void left by Pogba could as well be filled by Sancho.
To save all the trouble, I’d just sell Pogba, and buy Camavinga, and play safe with 2 DM system. At least Camavinga would offer us much more going forward than McFred while maintaining the same level of defending, and the big creativity void left by Pogba could as well be filled by Sancho.
Ok. The reason I gave those 3 options is because I think we are likely to do one of them this window. Not because I dont want us to get a DM and see if it can work with Pogba and Bruno. I dont think people should dismiss the possibility of that midfield working out as it is yet to be tested
I think there's a reason theres so much talk and demand that we should sell Pogba than ever before. He's on his last year of his contract and he expressed his desire to leave last season. It makes it very likely imo that if he renews then he's going to be the highest paid in the league knowing his agent. Either that or he runs his contract out next season and leaves for free. So to avoid any of these two options, the third option is to sell Pogba now and get a replacement/DM. Which is why I'm asking again, which of these three options will you choose?
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Ideally I think we'd all want that, but what about the practical details? How much of a raise would you want if you were in Pogba's shoes? If I were him knowing this would probably be the biggest contract of my career, I'd want to maximize my earnings.
So the question is - how much money would you offer him? Is he worth 500k/week? 600k/week? I mean looking at what Griezmann makes at Barca or what Mbappe's next deal would be I'd want something similar from United. Do you think we should agree to those terms?
Real Madrid shockingly are the most sensible team in this window when it comes to a player running down his contract i.e. Varane. They will off load him. Whereas ourselves i.e. Pogba and PSG i.e. Mbappe are deluded in thinking that wantaway players will sign new deals cause we will flash stupid amounts of money at them.
The camavinga kid sounds great, but it sounds like hes a replacement for matic rather than pogba. Utd will still need a player with the ability to turn defence into attack in a blink of an eye with a long field pass. Other than pogba we have no one with that ability (bruno included).
So not sure what utd would do to replace that ability.
The camavinga kid sounds great, but it sounds like hes a replacement for matic rather than pogba. Utd will still need a player with the ability to turn defence into attack in a blink of an eye with a long field pass. Other than pogba we have no one with that ability (bruno included).
So not sure what utd would do to replace that ability.
That is correct. It is a myth that he is (only) midfielder that does not track back
We are a better team with him, but we should set him a firm deadline for signing a new contract otherwise we do a swap deal with Madrid or sell him to PSG.
Year 7079 on RedCafe : Don't worry guys, next year is the year we finally see the best out of Paul Pogba
This narrative needs to die. He has been one of our best players for few season. It seems people are living in denial when it comes to Pogba.
This was in 18-19
Even in 19-20 and 20-21 season he was pretty good when he was fit and one of the reason why our season fell apart was because he got injured.
It's just he has been incredibly injury prone for last 2 season.