Nothing to lose with McKenna and Carrick, fans would be on their side and I a sure the football would be true to the club.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
That is rich coming form a person who has been arguing against my positions from day one. But is now trying to pretend our positions are 'some what aligned'
This
[ .... people are trying to shift blame away from Mourinho as if any manager that comes in will fail no matter what because Woodward is in charge. They're not understanding what Woodward is doing wrong.
Woodward's problems
1. He's hiring the wrong managers
2. He takes too long to sack said managers
3. He has no vision for what he wants out of managers and what approach United should generally follow
4. He gives managers too much power and when coupled with #3 and #1, it can lead to players the next manager will have no use for
These problems Woodward is to blame for does not mean the next manager will fail which is what they're not understanding. Woodward being incompetent only means that there is a higher chance he repeats those same mistakes and thus he ends up hiring the wrong manager a 4th time.
]
Is perfectly summarized as this = Just hire a progressive manager next. Then all will be well. Which you are boldly denying when
Basically as per your stance above:
i. Woodward having no vision for the long term future of the club doesn't matter even though he is in charge of football operations and is out of his depths
ii. United not having a director of football who can shape and entrench the long term identity and playing style of the club doesn't matter
iii. The fact these two things lead us to bad recruitment of both the managers and players to play under them doesn't matter
iv. the fact he sticks to a failed appointment long after their due for sack date doesn't matter
vi: the fact that moyes, lvg, and mourinho will have precipitated failure as a result of these issues 'don't count as proof' that these issues will ever hinder another managerial recruitment
Because none of these issues [miraculously, alongside others I wont mention] will have any effect on the work of United's next manager. I mean poor planning, no playing identity, plus awful recruitment will make his job such a breeze, even when it remains unchanged. Just throw in a Pochetino/young SAF type. And voila United will be great again
Sure. Its people like I who insist these issues must be fixed first before recruiting any other manager, who are the ones who 'don't understand what woodward/united are doing wrong'. Its us who thinks we should fix our club first so that we CAN get the right boss who don't understand. ........
I dont have to pull a thing. You are consistently self contradictory, yet keep insisting its you who understands, that you are the honest ones and others are lying. Yet your own posts testify against you. On top of it being very clearly you consistently poor grasp of the arguments you attempt to refute.
Case in point claiming my position contains 'absolutism'
Yes. It is impossible. I answered this earlier already when I said you have a better chance of being hit by lightening than United, with Woodward and the current football operations issues he brings, having a chance of 1) hiring the right man for the united job and 2) providing him the ideal platform for success
That is the problem with you consistently not grasping hat you are trying to refute. What part of the phrase 'not likely' do you not understand'? A club with structural issues leading to both poor long term planning and decision making is unlikely to engage in successful managerial recruitment. A thing you vehemently deny.
Hoo that's real rich coming from you. who cant' tell the difference between unlikely and never
No wonder you have decided my desire to change United's football operations into a competent unit is only based on 'the boogey man woodward'. Classic case of missing the point for like the umpteenth time in which you and I have exchanged posts
You seriously want to deny Manchester City have not been investing in their structures to achieve what they are getting now? You think they bought the likes of Aguero and Yaya Toure on a whim just because they could pay them huge wages? Seriously? Its not mere sopending that got City were it is. It was proper planning and direction. Leading them to invest in well laid plans which they are reaping from big time
Or a bit like sticking to a chairman out of his depth running football operations, leading to no footballing direction post Fergie, no footballing identity, poor managerial hiring and poor player recruitment. Arrogantly believing because we have the most money and the 'past methods' of a having chairman and a manager long term driving the club forward by sheer force personal will and personal brilliance worked for decades, it will still work now. sound familiar?
It would probably be fun, but there are tens of millions of pounds at stake if we fail to qualify for the Champions League in 2019/20 season. There is plenty to lose and absolutely no chance whatsoever of Woodward/the Glazers taking that kind of risk.
They'll go for the biggest name they can get.
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I'm not saying that at all. I've consistently disagreed with you on the fact that the next manager is doomed to fail. What part of that are we aligned on? That's literally what we've been arguing about.
Don't tell me you think that I think there's nothing wrong with Woodward? No idea where you got that idea. I've always said Woodward is incompetent. I just don't think his failings automatically mean it's impossible for a quick short term fix that is the right hiring of a manager.
No I don't deny that. You literally quoted me where I said it's not likely. Not likely =/= guaranteed to fail. Until you prove that, you can't say a manager can't fix us in the short term.
How is it impossible?
I give up. You're literally saying it's impossible for Woodward to fluke 1 managerial appointment.
You're clearly just stubborn. The act is literally picking a manager. It's not like he has to skillfully get a hole in 1 or something whereby the act itself is incredibly difficult for him at this point. It's hiring a manager. He's done it 3 other times, well 2 since Moyes was Fergie's pick. His incompetency only means it's more likely he fails to pick the right one, but that's different from saying he's "100% guaranteed to fail" which is why I said your absolutism is too far fetched. Let's say Woodward decides to choose out of a hat from Jardim, Zidane, Pocchetino, Howe, etc... you think there's 0% chance he hires the right one? Oh come on man. And if he has a plan it's more likely the same choice of managers will be from that group of managers. Woodward fixing his incompetency only means we finally hire the right manager, which is surprise, the same thing as Woodward fluking the right manager. This is why I constantly state that the right manager can fix us.If there was an exam with 4 multiple choice questions there is still a realistic chance you ace the exam even if the process is wrong (never studying). Now over the long term, the odds get lower and lower so absolutism in this case is fine because it's practically impossible to get everything right constantly which is why I state that over the long term it's impossible for Woodward's incompetency to not doom us. This is simple logic mate.
Ultimately both of us have been arguing over whether a simple managerial hiring can bring us back to the top. I think it can. You don't think so because Woodward is the boogeyman so it's literally impossible in your eyes for the next manager to succeed even if both Woodward without a plan and a competent DOF all arrive to the same managerial choice is completely realistic.
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How do you quantify this? I’ll make the bet he has enough money to compete for the title. Let me know how you want to scale this.
Nothing stupid like he had to be able to my Messi either.
Its not mere sopending that got City were it is. It was proper planning and direction. Leading them to invest in well laid plans which they are reaping from big time
Or a bit like sticking to a chairman out of his depth running football operations, leading to no footballing direction post Fergie, no footballing identity, poor managerial hiring and poor player recruitment. Arrogantly believing because we have the most money and the 'past methods' of a having chairman and a manager long term driving the club forward by sheer force personal will and personal brilliance worked for decades, it will still work now. sound familiar?
They brought a player that Pep Guardiola was known not to get on with in Yaya Toure. Where is the long term planning on that? Please explain. It doesn’t take a genius to know Sergio Augero is a good player. The only alternative to not signing good players is to sign nobody. So are you insisting because they never signed no one they had a good structure in place? I mean are we going to applaud Chelsea’s structure now for identifying Eden Hazard? Was it there well thought out long term planning that got Hazard in preparation for Mourinho to win the title 2 years after. Your chatting wet lol.
If Mourinho does actually end up going before the season ends, I'd take Wenger on an interim basis, he's a good manager and would steady the ship nicely for whoever is mad enough to take us on in the summer.
Call me nuts but I actually agree. The club could do a LOT worse than Wenger on a six month contract.
I said Wenger a while back, too. I'd be all for it on an interim basis.
My thoughts exactly. He's a good technician and comes without any drama. I honestly believe a bit of good coaching and a non-existent toxic environment would do wonders for our players, especially the attackers.
@JPRouve did say a while back that he tends to adapt to the sort of players he has at his disposal, which I think is really good. It means he won't be imposing a certain style (especially as the season's already started), but use the players at his disposal in the correct manner. As long as his brief is to entertain and provide team cohesion then it should be fine. We might win nothing but never mind at this moment in time.
Not nuts. I would take him as well for 6 months.
Can’t believe it came down to this, but I would also take Wenger for 6 months, will be entertaining.
We’ll be playing a totally different type of football after a week of training.
We’ll be playing a totally different type of football after a week of training.
Laurent Blanc until the end of the season. If he does a good job then consider him on a permanent basis, else go all guns blazing for Poch.
Your kidding right? Bringing in a player who understands the principles of winning attacking football and being comfortably on the ball, to lead Man City, a club not known for that culture, into eventually being fertile ground for hiring a Guardiola who once used him for that type of football isn't planning?
not the point. Aguero was never signed just because he was a ' good player'. A thing you are surprisingly eager to deny...
Huh? What does that sentence even mean? When did City sign no one?
Chelsea's good planning enables them to consistently by good players regardlesss of who their active manager is. No matter how often the manager changes. Which is my point.
You are simply conflating all planning together devoid of context. What City did is nothing like what Chelsea do. They do long term planning of 5 years, Chelsea have a a consistent resusable year to year plan. The point is it is good solid planning either was. United in comparison have none and its reflected in who we hire to coach players and who we sign to be coached. On top of the results and style of play on pitch. Im amazed you are refuting this.
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Jardim 100%
I don't see us getting top 4 and at some point a decision will have to be made. Jardim is available I would get him. Poch will be very difficult to get, especially with Football's Lex Luthor, Dan Levy involved. That fella is still probably bitter about Berbatov/Carrick deals.
I don't see us getting top 4 and at some point a decision will have to be made. Jardim is available I would get him. Poch will be very difficult to get, especially with Football's Lex Luthor, Dan Levy involved. That fella is still probably bitter about Berbatov/Carrick deals.
Exactly!
Plus the way Levy negotiates we'd spend the whole bloody summer negotiating and still Poch won't be here.
I do feel though that Poch wouldn't come. He'll feel an obligation to take them into the new stadium. That's my gut feeling.
So amazing but yet Lukaku, De Bruyne, Salah and Juan Mata even all have been let go whilst been proven world elite players. But looking at who sold them I’m not surprised there good planning with those players wen to pot.
Your missing the actual point, there was no planning involved with those purchase except they was good players and the club wanted them. Your making a complex maths equation out of 2+2. You don’t buy Yaya Toure thinking about Pep’s arrival, the guy bloody hates him. Pep didn’t say go City Yaya and I’ll catch up with you in 5 years, make sure everyone around the club is prepared for me. It’s mythical bull. Shock horror good players like KDB and David Silva can play good football. At Bayern Munich Pep signed Thiago in his first season. One player and he got them playing the same style he plays now. Are you telling me Bayern planned for Pep too. Was it there great structure that meant he could play his football?
I mean West Brom have a great academy, they teach there players how to play the right way and or all very good technical coached. Yet Tony Pulis goes there and his style of play has nothing to do with the West Brom set up. My whole point this stupid correlation that the set up has to be perfect for managers to succeed is nonsense unless we are talking about financial backing. There not at clubs long enough these days and there coaching style is only effective on those 18-22 they have in there squad. Which is why we went from a possession based team without a clue to a do what you like team without a clue.
If Poch wants to come what can Levy actually do? Is he going to make Poch manage the reserves until he changes his mind? Who's he going to have running the first team in that situation? Will he risk completely ruining their season just to spite Poch?
If your manager wants to leave there's nothing a club can do. Can you imagine the squad morale if you knew your manager wanted out? Levy in this situation is completely powerless and that's why managers have no monetary value.
Yes that's true... but my gut feeling is that Poch doesn't want this job. If he goes, I think it will be to Madrid.
Yep. I'm sure Jardim is hungry to prove himself yet again. Not like Monaco improved at all since Henry took over. Jardim did incredible things at Monaco then had his entire team dismantled.
The thought of seeing Martial, Lingard, Chong, Rashford under Jardim is reason enough for me. The club blocked all of Mourinho's signings because they are probably all old and no no resale value. Jardim would fit the clubs policies. He can work with the young players and he can sign young players even if they are for big money. Provided their value goes up. Like Martial's.
Plus he'll actually coach them properly. I'm sorry but we don't look like we've been coached for ages. It's surreal seeing the players of an elite club looking so disjointed and amateur at times. Mourinho has really robbed us with the huge salary he's taking home.
It's not just about getting him. A lot depends on what happens this season. If top 4 becomes unlikely, we would need need to make a change. From what I have read it will cost less to sack him if Mourinho fails to get top 4. Not sure about clubs thinking on this. I would have thought securing top 4 is more important and saving money on sacking Mourinho.
Top 4 is already unlikely (I'd say it's completely delusional to believe we'll get top 4 under this management).
We need to make a change now. An interim manager till the end of the seaon is a must.
Rather you have consistently disagreed with what you imagine my stance to be. Whilst missing my actual point time and again.
The fact you still can't see confirms what I said ealier. You simply do not understand....
Huh? When did me saying you utterly deny that the problems Woodward's incompetence is causing directly hinders sustained success of hired managers = You think there is nothing wrong with Woodward?
Yet another example of you imagining what I've said. Rather than dealing with what I actually post....
I have repeatedly said from the start if United DONT fix the structure and planning issues in football operations things are unlikely to change regardless of who we hire.
You instead insist I'm saying that next boss is 'guarnteed to fail inANY circumstance'.
Now you want to claim what?
What part of the phrase 'sustained success' do you not understand?
Is 'sustained success' shor term?
That is why I insist. You clearly think merely hiring a progressive manager is a magical cure to all our ills. Because you simply don't umderstand what my argument is about. Plain and simple.
Yes. For He hasn't showed any signs of being especially lucky. You seem all to willing to bank on his one in a million chance at a special fluke.I give up. You're literally saying it's impossible for Woodward to fluke 1 managerial appointment.
Which he has flunked at stupendously three times due to his current methods and planning skills. But you expect him miraculously to suddenly do it right, without changing a thing.
The real reason you and I are at odds. Not the ones you keep inventing.
I won't 'come on'. As per his current methods he will hire the one with the best world wide rep. Never recruit for him players to solve each department the manager will want fixed. Yet he will want a return to the Busby Fergie ways on pitch.
Of course you do because you DONT understand!
I mean you clearly admit you think picking the right manager through competence and a great plan is the same as merely stuff.bling on to one by a pure fluke. Which says it all and ends the argument right there. Nothing further needs to be added.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. The fact you still imagine my argument is based entirely on Woodward being 'a boogey man' of some sort, rather than directionsless and poor planning with knocking on effects precisely confirms my insistance that you do not understand. There is nada left to be added to that.
Mourinho finds a way to get a big win when he needs it. Like Juventus, Our position in the is still strong in the CL. So the club are probably looking at that. But the main reason Mourinho is still in the job is because they don't believe a viable candidate is available.
The fact that Jardim is not being considered when he is out of work, just shows how inept this football club has become. Unai Emery was surprising choice but he has come in and done very well. Jardim is more than capable doing the same.
I have been watching United youth in European youth league. And i have heard that Nicky Butt want the youth team he is coaching, playing on the front foot. Like most of United fans want it. Pogba and many others players want it. I didnt remember when he said that.
Its great to watch and follow United youth. They are on top of the youth league and the thing that has impress me most is Angel Gomes as a cm playmaker. Previous season i had just observed him as a cam, wingers or striker. This season as a dictate cm player. I expected a bit taller player as a dictate cm player. So with Gomes height, he is looking really first in first metres. He safe with the ball and its really difficult to take the ball from him. He might can do a good enough job as a deep laying cm playmaker on the first team level.
But back to Nicky Butt. Im sure he will the first team to play on the front foot too, going into big games in premier league. And Butt has playing on the highest level of football before. Both for the best and for the underdog team Newcastle. So he definitive how high intensity and speed are needed on the top level. The hard work, focus and everything shall be on top. And like i have said before. He is a natural coach and leader. Composure, but still has the temper to benefit of the performances.
And like i said. He want his team he is coaching playing on the front. And i think and believe Butt has personality and character to be United first team head coach. If he move up to interim head coach for the first team, then Carrick can try to coach and take over the youth. So my vote will definitive go to Nicky Butt. Let him coach until the rest of the season. If its not working. Then summer i would contact Dortmund about permission to talk with their head coach Favre. Then he might bring some of his best Dortmund players to Old Trafford too. Some players are just meant to play for some specific manager. Like Matic for Mourinho.
But in the end. I hope and wish it will work out with Nicky Butt, so United dont need to hire Favre from Dortmund. But still, no matter who is manager. United shalll buy some of Dortmund players next summer. Do a Liverpool on Southampton and City with Monaco, get their best players. Sorry, for Dortmund fans. United are aiming to become one of the best club in Europe again, so United will always try to bring the best playerd around the world to Old Trafford.
So its just a big compliment to Dortmund as a club, to had brought so many really good football players to the club, and that is the same with Manchester United. So we hope you dont mind we buy some of your best players. Same go to Ajax. There are reasons why those two clubs are playing really good football right now. They do have the level and quality of the players. And at Old Trafford, they will allow to continue to playing like that. Dominate, playing on the front foot, attack when its right and most effience, to win matches. Joining a winning team.
Its great to watch and follow United youth. They are on top of the youth league and the thing that has impress me most is Angel Gomes as a cm playmaker. Previous season i had just observed him as a cam, wingers or striker. This season as a dictate cm player. I expected a bit taller player as a dictate cm player. So with Gomes height, he is looking really first in first metres. He safe with the ball and its really difficult to take the ball from him. He might can do a good enough job as a deep laying cm playmaker on the first team level.
But back to Nicky Butt. Im sure he will the first team to play on the front foot too, going into big games in premier league. And Butt has playing on the highest level of football before. Both for the best and for the underdog team Newcastle. So he definitive how high intensity and speed are needed on the top level. The hard work, focus and everything shall be on top. And like i have said before. He is a natural coach and leader. Composure, but still has the temper to benefit of the performances.
And like i said. He want his team he is coaching playing on the front. And i think and believe Butt has personality and character to be United first team head coach. If he move up to interim head coach for the first team, then Carrick can try to coach and take over the youth. So my vote will definitive go to Nicky Butt. Let him coach until the rest of the season. If its not working. Then summer i would contact Dortmund about permission to talk with their head coach Favre. Then he might bring some of his best Dortmund players to Old Trafford too. Some players are just meant to play for some specific manager. Like Matic for Mourinho.
But in the end. I hope and wish it will work out with Nicky Butt, so United dont need to hire Favre from Dortmund. But still, no matter who is manager. United shalll buy some of Dortmund players next summer. Do a Liverpool on Southampton and City with Monaco, get their best players. Sorry, for Dortmund fans. United are aiming to become one of the best club in Europe again, so United will always try to bring the best playerd around the world to Old Trafford.
So its just a big compliment to Dortmund as a club, to had brought so many really good football players to the club, and that is the same with Manchester United. So we hope you dont mind we buy some of your best players. Same go to Ajax. There are reasons why those two clubs are playing really good football right now. They do have the level and quality of the players. And at Old Trafford, they will allow to continue to playing like that. Dominate, playing on the front foot, attack when its right and most effience, to win matches. Joining a winning team.
I am really torn about this. I like Jardim, and he is the obvious first choice since Poch is not leaving. I wonder though; if it would not just be detrimental to give him the reins in January already. Not being able to do anything significant in the transfer market and having to turn a boat around during the time of the season where we play the most games. No pre-season, no real time on the traning pitch. It might be best to let Mourinho see this season out and take full responsibility and let a coach as Jardim to have a fair shake to implement his type of football with a full pre-season. See Chelsea and Sarri. It can work.
It is better to get a new Manager if we can get the one we want in January or even now. That gives him more time to evaluate the team and find transfers by the time the season is over and the transfer window gets open. Otherwise the time he has to sort out everything is too short.
The decision shouldn’t be rushed. I’d rather we get Carrick and McKenna preparing the team for a new attacking coach for next season. It would uplift the players and reduce damage control.
For me if Poch will not come (which I don't think he would want to anyways), then it should be Jardim. After that i'm not even sure anymore.
Time to go. 0-0 against Palace at home is just unacceptable. Clearly not getting the best out of the players most of whom he has bought. See ya Jose.
The Poch.
You don't think he would consider the United job as a challenge worthy of his ability?
Not at the moment, possibly in two summers. I geniunly believe he’s happy at Spurs and he believes that team hadn’t reached their full potential yet.
If Jose leave, do you all believe that we will go for Poch? Or is it just fans wish?
Why is Eddie Howe not on the poll? Surely he's more likely than Mark Hughes & Gary Neville!!
Get Hughes off the poll.
Just update the Poll lol. Zidane's not even on it. Has the orgainiser of the Poll gone on a Sabbatical.
Personally speaking, just a wish. Don't think it's at all likely that he'd join even if we made an approach.