[Shimo]

To me it's not the formation - it's the philosophy of patience. The idea that we need to be patient just makes us that fraction slower to make things happen. Only when we were a goal down did I see us try to up the tempo. Patience is good if we are at least creating a chance every few minutes but, when we go most of the game without any real chances, then surely that means we are doing something terribly wrong.

When you have a well organized team, a bit of chaos is needed. Otherwise they just sit back and just snuff out any chances. Surely LVG is smart enough to realize we just are not creating enough chances with the current philosophy - especially not with the players he has at his disposal - then again he probably is too stubborn to believe he has it wrong and it's the players that are not executing his vision.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

To me it's not the formation - it's the philosophy of patience. The idea that we need to be patient just makes us that fraction slower to make things happen. Only when we were a goal down did I see us try to up the tempo. Patience is good if we are at least creating a chance every few minutes but, when we go most of the game without any real chances, then surely that means we are doing something terribly wrong.

When you have a well organized team, a bit of chaos is needed. Otherwise they just sit back and just snuff out any chances. Surely LVG is smart enough to realize we just are not creating enough chances with the current philosophy - especially not with the players he has at his disposal - then again he probably is too stubborn to believe he has it wrong and it's the players that are not executing his vision.

I do not see why we can't keep the ball but get it forward quicker and move it faster round the box, that is what we have been doing in some games and have looked threatening doing it. It's this slow passing the ball backwards and sideways that is killing us.

 

[Sunny Jim]

Just bring Fergie back

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

I don't know what was worse, the fact that our plan B and our strategy to "go for it" was to lump it up to Fellaini, or the fact that that was the only time we looked remotely like scoring.

 

[ManUArfa]

There's no point playing 3-5-2 if the wingbacks we use don't provide the service and we don't have enough predators/bullies lurking in the box. This can get success against teams who want to put men behind the ball but we had the wrong players today to make it work. Shaw was nowhere near as effective as Young has been as a LWB and RVP was isolated without Falcao alongside.

 

[Litch]

Southampton are a good team. Look at their results. We need to accept that the difference between the so called lesser teams is getting smaller every season.....

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I don't know what was worse, the fact that our plan B and our strategy to "go for it" was to lump it up to Fellaini, or the fact that that was the only time we looked remotely like scoring.

Probably both, as it is everything the club has always hated to do.

 

[saivet]

Good post. I've issues with the overalls performances if some of the back kind this year but this isn't their fault.

Total lack of creativity and slow, predictable patters of play are the problem.

Defensively they were okay today but it also doesn't help when we struggle to build from the back.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Defensively they were okay today but it also doesn't help when we struggle to build from the back.

Exactly, they might be keeping the ball out of the net, but then it's no good as you say if they don't have the confidence or know how to get the ball to our creative midfielder to create chances up front. The defence as shown today is still prone to the odd moment of stupidity, which makes it imperative that we are creating chances.

 

[Godfather]

Need to watch highlights of the 06/07 season when we actually played attractive football to get over this waste of 90 mins.

 

[RedRover]

We didn't deserve to lose. Southampton did absolutely nothing all game, yet with all the ball neither did we. 0-0 would have been the apt score. We had more possession, more shots, more tackles, won more aerial duels, had more successful dribbles. We were still shite though no question, but they jsut came for a draw today and couldn't believe their luck when our 3 centre backs decided to stand around 1 player.

I disagree. Neither side created a lot but they took their chance when it presented itself. They deserved to win the game. We had more ball but did nothing with it and as the home side need to go and break the opposition down.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Yes Colin. That's exactly what I meant. I want us to specially lose by 5 goals to 3 every week.

I don't think that's a good idea then.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

I don't think that's a good idea then.

 

[noodlehair]

Remember when everyone hated Moyes because of his "dinosaur tactics"?

Remember when Rio said Moyes was crap because one minute he'd be telling the players to play it short and the next telling them to hoof it long?

 

[RedRover]

Defensively they were okay today but it also doesn't help when we struggle to build from the back.

I'm not having that to be honest. Our midfield were getting the ball in space and with enough time to do something with it.

The passing was neat and tidy, even under pressure, but lacked a cutting edge. It's not any defenders fault that multi-million pound midfield and forward players can't do their job and provide creativity. And I include the wing backs as midfielders here, not as defenders.

We haven't defended that badly lately, but look poor going forward. It needs to be addressed.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Remember when everyone hated Moyes because of his "dinosaur tactics"?

Remember when Rio said Moyes was crap because one minute he'd be telling the players to play it short and the next telling them to hoof it long?

Sounds familiar.

 

[manichester]

Trying to turn Di Maria into Robben and Rooney into Scholes is not going to work.

 

[KeninDC]

60 percent posession, 83 percent accuracy and 0 shots on goal. Tells me that something is wrong. Sure, Soton is a good defensive side-but all the posession and knocking the ball around didn't lead to enough solid chances. Losing 1-0 at home is pretty poor, especially given a fully healthy squad. Is this really how LVG wants the team to play?

 

[Carl]

Well that was fecking shit. I'm not naive enough to think this is purely down to the system that we're playing but it's certainly contributing.

It's just dull, drab, boring football. Awful to watch. The way we panicked in the last 20 mins and just played hoofball to Fellaini was embarassing too.

 

[noodlehair]

Well that was fecking shit. I'm not naive enough to think this is purely down to the system that we're playing but it's certainly contributing.

It's just dull, drab, boring football. Awful to watch. The way we panicked in the last 20 mins and just played hoofball to Fellaini was embarassing too.

It wasn't panicking. The manager brought Fellaini on in order to instruct our players to do that.

It was certainly embarassing but what makes it embarassing is that it was on purpose.

 

[hobbers]

Problem is 90% down to formation.

This system relies on attacking wingbacks bombing forward and putting crosses in. We already know that Valencia can't beat the first man and Shaw looked too scared to even try a cross.

With stale wing backs offering no attacking impetus you're left with 1 man short every attack and a very narrow area for the forwards and Rooney/Mata to operate in. With no wingers making wide/diagonal runs the opposition defence are guarenteed to have a piss easy day.

Of course, we actually don't have any quality wingers at the moment. Mata is no good there and Di Maria is by far his most effective on the left of the midfield three.

 

[RedRover]

Trying to turn Di Maria into Robben and Rooney into Scholes is not going to work.

Spot on. As I said above, square pegs into round holes.

Here's a novel idea - build a system around the players you have, not decide on a system and crow bar players into it whether they fit of not.

The worst part is he doesn't seem to know where he wants to play some players, even after six months coaching Rooney and having actively bought Di Maria presumably having some idea of where he would play.

Seems frighteningly like its all being done on the hop. Players shifted about every other game and no consistency even when players are fit.

 

[Garethw]

Just bring Fergie back

I was thinking the same thing during the match. The trouble is he's an old man and we'd be back to square one a year or two down the line.

 

[Carl]

It wasn't panicking. The manager brought Fellaini on in order to instruct our players to do that.

It was certainly embarassing but what makes it embarassing is that it was on purpose.

It definitely was panicking. I've no doubt that the intention was to hit Fellaini with long balls but the players have a responsibility to at least make sure they're iun a position to do that and not just launch it from any old angle at any given opportunity.

 

[Garethw]

Problem is 90% down to formation.

This system relies on attacking wingbacks bombing forward and putting crosses in. We already know that Valencia can't beat the first man and Shaw looked too scared to even try a cross.

With stale wing backs offering no attacking impetus you're left with 1 man short every attack and a very narrow area for the forwards and Rooney/Mata to operate in. With no wingers making wide/diagonal runs the opposition defence are guarenteed to have a piss easy day.

Of course, we actually don't have any quality wingers at the moment. Mata is no good there and Di Maria is by far his most effective on the left of the midfield three.

A 352 also depends on the CB's being playmakers as well as defenders. Our defenders can't even pass the fecking ball, let alone push up and start attacks.

 

[POF]

It was a very poor performance. I think Southampton were lucky to get the win. They never really looked like scoring but United got what they deserved.

After all of the talk about a fully fit squad, this was a game for United to make a statement and that subs bench (3 centre backs for a home game) was embarrassing. Chasing a winner, they replaced the front 2 and a wing back with 2 midfield players and a centre back.

 

[hobbers]

A 352 also depends on the CB's being playmakers as well as defenders. Our defenders can't even pass the fecking ball, let alone push up and start attacks.

That too. It absolutely invites the high pressing tactics that we've seen teams employ against us.

It's largely why we've looked so frail at the back this season. Not because teams cut through us like butter but because in this system so much of the time the ball is at Smalling/McNair/Evans feet and they get aggressively pressed and hoof the ball away, since they lack the quality and composure to do anything else.

 

[Danny Boi]

I'm not having that to be honest. Our midfield were getting the ball in space and with enough time to do something with it.

The passing was neat and tidy, even under pressure, but lacked a cutting edge. It's not any defenders fault that multi-million pound midfield and forward players can't do their job and provide creativity. And I include the wing backs as midfielders here, not as defenders.

We haven't defended that badly lately, but look poor going forward. It needs to be addressed.

I agree with that,I actually thought we were much improved passing out from the back today.We were comfortable on the ball and the defenders rarely hoofed the ball forward unlike other games.

The problem was with the tempo and penetration in the final third.In the 10 minutes or so when Mata had his 2 or 3 chances we looked pretty good l,asid e from that though we were very stale.

The 352 causes too much pressure on wingbacks to provide service they arn't capable of.Also Rooney and Di Maria were both in position.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

A 352 also depends on the CB's being playmakers as well as defenders. Our defenders can't even pass the fecking ball, let alone push up and start attacks.

Our defenders have trouble standing up sometimes nevermind being playmakers. They are playmakers for the other team more than us.

 

[noodlehair]

It definitely was panicking. I've no doubt that the intention was to hit Fellaini with long balls but the players have a responsibility to at least make sure they're iun a position to do that and not just launch it from any old angle at any given opportunity.

Well when you suddenly go from "keep the ball at all costs" to "pump it long to Fellaini", you can't expect the players to not be slightly confused as to exactly what they're supposed to be doing.

I mean, are both of these things the "philosophy"? Because that's somewhat impossible...and whenever someone doesn't follow the philosophy, Van Gaal blames them.

I don't know about you but when I watch our games this season, at any given point at least half our team gives the distinct impression they don't really have a clue what the feck they're supposed to be doing.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Well when you suddenly go from "keep the ball at all costs" to "pump it long to Fellaini", you can't expect the players to not be slightly confused as to exactly what they're supposed to be doing.

I mean, are both of these things the "philosophy"? Because that's somewhat impossible...and whenever someone doesn't follow the philosophy, Van Gaal blames them.

I don't know about you but when I watch our games this season, at any given point at least half our team gives the distinct impression they don't really have a clue what the feck they're supposed to be doing.

In a way it is against the philosophy, because just randomly pumping the ball to a big man gives possession back to the other team, unless of course you have a players who can cross the ball. We don't have anyone who can do that consistently. You get the odd good cross, but most are dire.

 

[Browniee]

We are just an awful team at the moment. Clueless, drab, hit and hope football. I mean we had Juan Mata, Wayne Rooney, Angel Di Maria and Robin Van Persie in our starting line up, on paper world class ruthless match winners yet we had one measly shot on target.
I'm backing LVG to te hilt but his 'philosophy' isn't working with these players.
Every player wearing red today didn't know what the feck they were doing.
I really haven't got a clue what to suggest anymore, is it really the 3-5-2? Is it really just an extra CB making the whole team awful? That said 'one extra CB' has been Carrick at times, an excellent passer and reader of the game so what's the problem?
We are creating less and less and each game goes by, it's really worrying.
I think we'll make top four (just) but it's going to be a struggle what with the fixtures we have come March april may. We need to be winning games like today.

 

[Americano]

I hated Moyes most for not learning from his mistakes, not reacting quickly enough to make a difference, and persisting in obviously ineffective tactics.

 

[Carl]

Well when you suddenly go from "keep the ball at all costs" to "pump it long to Fellaini", you can't expect the players to not be slightly confused as to exactly what they're supposed to be doing.

I mean, are both of these things the "philosophy"? Because that's somewhat impossible...and whenever someone doesn't follow the philosophy, Van Gaal blames them.

I don't know about you but when I watch our games this season, at any given point at least half our team gives the distinct impression they don't really have a clue what the feck they're supposed to be doing.

There's definitely a conflict in "the philosophy" however professional footballers can surely understand more than 1 way of playing. It's not like this problem of unimaginitive football has arrived with van Gaal either.

 

[Garethw]

I hated Moyes most for not learning from his mistakes, not reacting quickly enough to make a difference, and persisting in obviously ineffective tactics.

where's Bill Murray? It's groundhog day in the United dugout at the moment.

 

[Blue always red]

After 21 games under Moyes we had 37 points and were 7th in the league.

 

[Asger]

After 21 games under Moyes we had 37 points and were 7th in the league.

And he had Champions team then.

 

[Clas Sified]

Guys calm down with the knee-jerk reactions. Southampton are a good team, we didn't just get beaten by a midtable or relagation battlers. They're true top 4 contenders.

IMO, we're set for the rest of the season. Most of our summer signing are coming back, and as more come back, I'm confident that LVG will (hopefully) swap back to 4 at the back, whether that be a diamond or something else.

 

[Sam]

Utter clusterfeck of a match. I actually thought Southampton were there for the taking, and were hardly impressive at all, despite all their praise. They basically scored from their only chance all match.

We were woeful beyond belief.

 

[sunama]

Here's a novel idea - build a system around the players you have, not decide on a system and crow bar players into it whether they fit of not.

Wherever LVG has gone, he has operated a strict system.
The system is the star of the show, not the players.
This means that there is no particular need for star players - just players who can hold possession and pass the ball, without panicking.
He looks for intelligence, not flair.

Players will either adapt/learn to play in the system OR be benched/fired/sold.
It is upto the players to adapt to the system, not the other way around.
Players must be able to play in multiple positions and be able to play in any position on the pitch (Total Football).

I realise that some of you are young, so are unaware of what he did at Ajax, AZ, Barca, Bayern, etc. The guy is very stubborn and he will persist with his system or be sacked. He won't change it (if he believes in it).

I hated Moyes most for not learning from his mistakes, not reacting quickly enough to make a difference, and persisting in obviously ineffective tactics.

With Moyes, the issue wasnt the lack of Plan B. The issue was that he was completely out of ideas. He'd reached a point where he felt that he needed (virtually) a brand new team. And in all interviews, he was stating this (ie. a major clearout & rebuild). At least LVG has come in and is making use of those same players and getting results.