Protests following the killing of George Floyd

Withnail said:
Well it's like the manager thing and I think it goes deeper than that.

Are you saying if there are no black refs to choose from that there is no problem?
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Not necessarily, but you cant have black refs if there is none to choose from.

But then itd be an issue of why black people don't become refs. Is it purely coincidence or is there a history of racial bias therefore they dont bother wasting there time and that would need looked into then.
 
arnie_ni said:
Not necessarily, but you cant have black refs if there is none to choose from.

But then itd be an issue of why black people don't become refs. Is it purely coincidence or is there a history of racial bias therefore they dont bother wasting there time and that would need looked into then.
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Well yeah that is what I was getting at but wasn't sure you were on the same page.

I don't think it invalidates Foxbatt's assertion that 'there must be a reason...' but it's quite a complex thing to unravel I suppose and I really don't believe in coincidences.
 
Withnail said:
Well yeah that is what I was getting at but wasn't sure you were on the same page.

I don't think it invalidates Foxbatt's assertion that 'there must be a reason...' but it's quite a complex thing to unravel I suppose and I really don't believe in coincidences.
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I can only go with what they said on the programme. They said that there are black referees but they never get posts in the premier league. There are coaches too who are very good and very good business people too but they don't get the chances to go forward.
It's the same in management too and on the boards. Surely no one believes that they are not competent enough to referee or coach or manage a football club because of the colour of their skin or their ethnic background? Or are there people who still believe it?
 
Foxbatt said:
I can only go with what they said on the programme. They said that there are black referees but they never get posts in the premier league. There are coaches too who are very good and very good business people too but they don't get the chances to go forward.
It's the same in management too and on the boards. Surely no one believes that they are not competent enough to referee or coach or manage a football club because of the colour of their skin or their ethnic background? Or are there people who still believe it?
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There's definitely under-representation and if there are referees and it just so happens that none of them ever get the big jobs then it needs looking in to. Do you have a link to the programme out of interest?
 
Withnail said:
If you're not trolling I've no idea what is happening
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One of us is not understanding what the other one is saying. Is very possible I'm the one. Why would I be trolling? Are you trolling?
 
Withnail said:
There's definitely under-representation and if there are referees and it just so happens that none of them ever get the big jobs then it needs looking in to. Do you have a link to the programme out of interest?
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Kelly and ( Ian) Wright show. It was on the TV.
 
Foxbatt said:
Lucky the Raptors didn't think so and they made history.
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I didn't mean everyone, everywhere, of course. Although I'd think the NBA will buck trends in this because many of the roles in question are best filled by former players and currently African Americans make up over 80% of the league rosters.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
I didn't mean everyone, everywhere, of course. Although I'd think the NBA will buck trends in this because many of the roles in question are best filled by former players and currently African Americans make up over 80% of the league rosters.
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Im very confused by the last page.

Nick Nurse is white? Are you talking about Masai?
 
Withnail said:
Well yeah that is what I was getting at but wasn't sure you were on the same page.

I don't think it invalidates Foxbatt's assertion that 'there must be a reason...' but it's quite a complex thing to unravel I suppose and I really don't believe in coincidences.
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I agree entirely. I just dont like the assertion thats its racism right of the bat, it could be, but it might not either.

Its definitely worth looking into
 
arnie_ni said:
I agree entirely. I just dont like the assertion thats its racism right of the bat, it could be, but it might not either
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Then why may I ask? Surely among all those people there would be at least one who is capable of running a football club? One who is capable of coaching a top football team and one who is capable of refereeing a PL football match?
 
Foxbatt said:
Then why may I ask? Surely among all those people there would be at least one who is capable of running a football club? One who is capable of coaching a top football team and one who is capable of refereeing a PL football match?
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I duno why, thats why i said it would need investigated, it could very well be racism a few posts up.
 
arnie_ni said:
I duno why, thats why i said it would need investigated, it could very well be racism a few posts up.
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Just saw the news that FA has launched a diversity code in trying to get rid of the old boys network. All the PL clubs have signed off apart from Southampton who is waiting for the PL code to come out.
 
Foxbatt said:
Just saw the news that FA has launched a diversity code in trying to get rid of the old boys network. All the PL clubs have signed off apart from Southampton who is waiting for the PL code to come out.
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Definitely worth it.

Those old over the hill coaches keep getting positions.
 
Dwight Yorke said he was not even given a chance for an interview. There is certainly racism not only in football but every job in the UK. It's not only for black ethnicity but also against Asian and Muslims too.
You have to look the same as the person hiring you or else you are different and would find it hard to get a top job.
Yes there are and will be incompetent managers but how many of black managers are given chances that white managers get? Not much. Give a good black manager chances like Moyes gets or Bruce gets and eventually they will make it.
 
WI_Red said:
Im very confused by the last page.

Nick Nurse is white? Are you talking about Masai?
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Yes (he's a former player which might be unusual for an executive role) but it does stand to reason that over time we'll see more African Americans in these and coaching roles in the league.
 
Foxbatt said:
...... There is certainly racism not only in football but every job in the UK. It's not only for black ethnicity but also against Asian and Muslims too.....
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For sure, that‘s the case in Europe. It‘s not a UK thing.
 
arnie_ni said:
I agree entirely. I just dont like the assertion thats its racism right of the bat, it could be, but it might not either.

Its definitely worth looking into
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An adage we were taught in med school was that "uncommon presentation of a common disease is more common than an uncommon disease" meaning that you should go about by trying to exclude the usual suspects first before looking into more obscure possibilities.

Racism, as a social disease is common, and it would make sense to exclude it first before looking at less likely causes.
 
Jaqen H'ghar said:
An adage we were taught in med school was that "uncommon presentation of a common disease is more common than an uncommon disease" meaning that you should go about by trying to exclude the usual suspects first before looking into more obscure possibilities.

Racism, as a social disease is common, and it would make sense to exclude it first before looking at less likely causes.
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Which is the opposite i suppose of what i was saying.

I was always of thought if you jump to racism first and it isnt, that gives racists more opportunity to shout down genuine cases, with a "here we go again" or the "boy the cried wolf" attitude.
 
arnie_ni said:
Which is the opposite i suppose of what i was saying.

I was always of thought if you jump to racism first and it isnt, that gives racists more opportunity to shout down genuine cases, with a "here we go again" or the "boy the cried wolf" attitude.
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I get what you mean. I wouldn't go so far as to label it racism, but rather to acknowledge racism as a very probable cause. If I can't find evidence to exclude it though, it's probably it.
 
No one here thinking accusations of racism demands substantial evidence? It's not a small thing to be accused of
 
Jaqen H'ghar said:
I get what you mean. I wouldn't go so far as to label it racism, but rather to acknowledge racism as a very probable cause. If I can't find evidence to exclude it though, it's probably it.
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Isnt that the opposite of innocent until proven guilty.
 
nimic said:
Innocent until proven guilty is a legal principle, not a moral principle.
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I get that, but can you call something racist without racist evidence, or do you assume racism and try to prove otherwise like jaqen said?
 
arnie_ni said:
I get that, but can you call something racist without racist evidence, or do you assume racism and try to prove otherwise like jaqen said?
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What is racist evidence? If someone is involved in a car crash I don't assume racism, but if they were shouting "white power" I might. I just don't see what cases you're thinking of where people just assume racism where there is no "racist evidence".
 
nimic said:
What is racist evidence? If someone is involved in a car crash I don't assume racism, but if they were shouting "white power" I might. I just don't see what cases you're thinking of where people just assume racism where there is no "racist evidence".
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We're talking about the lack of black referees in the PL and whether this is due to racism.

Follow the posts back

Edit that probably sounds a bit bitchy
 
arnie_ni said:
We're talking about the lack of black referees in the PL and whether this is due to racism.

Follow the posts back

Edit that probably sounds a bit bitchy
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Racism is a bias, and apart from people admitting to it (which is unlikely) there will be no solid proof. It can still be detected though through patterns of action on an individual level and statistics on a larger level.

It's common enough that you can attribute to it anomalous patterns and statistics that cannot otherwise be explained.

I don't think the innocent until proven guilty bit applies because racism is not the crime, it's the motive. The crime is unfair treatment. Once it's established that X has been treated unfairly, and Y cannot come up with a plausible justification then it's safe to assume that the motive is racism.
 
Jaqen H'ghar said:
Racism is a bias, and apart from people admitting to it (which is unlikely) there will be no solid proof. It can still be detected though through patterns of action on an individual level and statistics on a larger level.

It's common enough that you can attribute to it anomalous patterns and statistics that cannot otherwise be explained.

I don't think the innocent until proven guilty bit applies because racism is not the crime, it's the motive. The crime is unfair treatment. Once it's established that X has been treated unfairly, and Y cannot come up with a plausible justification then it's safe to assume that the motive is racism.
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No, it's not.
 
Jaqen H'ghar said:
Racism is a bias, and apart from people admitting to it (which is unlikely) there will be no solid proof. It can still be detected though through patterns of action on an individual level and statistics on a larger level.

It's common enough that you can attribute to it anomalous patterns and statistics that cannot otherwise be explained.

I don't think the innocent until proven guilty bit applies because racism is not the crime, it's the motive. The crime is unfair treatment. Once it's established that X has been treated unfairly, and Y cannot come up with a plausible justification then it's safe to assume that the motive is racism.
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I agree with you When have no black referees or any in the board of a football club then if it's not racism then what?
 
e.cantona said:
What's (not) plausible?
What if race is not in the picture, is it then safe to assume whatever you want?
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There is no need to assume hypotheticals when you have racism, a real issue, despite you trying to pretend otherwise.

To answer the absurd hypothetical, you can assume whatever bias the numbers suggest. All the refs are tall? Heightism. All are Lords? Classism. All young? Ageism, etc. As long as the numbers show a bias you should assume the most logical and proceed to prove or exclude from there.

Edit: implausible would be to attribute significant anomalies to coincidence, or in the case of refs and coaches there not being enough interested candidates, for example.
 
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