Good point. I think we would have zero interest in signing him.
Rashford and Martial are a problem
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Good point. I think we would have zero interest in signing him.
If by problem you mean not consistently world-class, then yes they're a problem.
But they're fantastic forwards on their day, both of whom have the ability to change a game in an instant.
I do think we need an out-and-out number 9 to get the most from them. Whether or not Cavani can take that role, or Greenwood develop into it, is still to be seen.
But they're fantastic forwards on their day, both of whom have the ability to change a game in an instant.
I do think we need an out-and-out number 9 to get the most from them. Whether or not Cavani can take that role, or Greenwood develop into it, is still to be seen.
Out of position? That´s not exactly an excuse, both Martial and Rashford are attackers capable of playing centrally or from the left. If they played from the right wing , could be used as an excuse but in a game like this, surely can´t be excused. Martial showed some good touches in the first 20minutes but was isolated. If it´s down to his unwillingness to be available Iĺl leave it up to you. Rashford timing his runs better could get us into good chances, also his decision making showed again to be sub par.
Sure thing midfield was pressed as feck but if you have Bruno losing every fecking ball and concedeing possession it´s hard to create any kind of flow and release our strikers. I think "our style" is really direct because we know we have some pacy players who can hurt them but they themselves didn´t show in a good light. Not the first time. We should bring competition in. Be it Grealish or Sancho, they simply need it. Spend few game son the bench.Then they realize they have to work harder. Rashford especially feels untouchable and hardly a hardworker as when he started getting his first games.
I would prefer Grealish myself at this point, we have got a problem when Bruno is horribly out of form like this, aleso when Pogba leaves we need a replacement in a similar fashion. And lastly we need a consistent dribbler from the left. Rashford knows some tricks but he relies on open space than anything, if he doesn´t have that he tends to stop and play walking football. Grealish is the most fouled player and most consistent one. He could be a our Hazard if got him. Will he be expensive, yess but what can we do.. otherwise we stay below the summit forever..
Time for vdb to join the party. Thing is continuity of play time in their best position is the problem. Lw is both their best position, likewise Pogba.
How do you keep 2 players out of their best position playing well and on form?. We now have Cavani who's a total Cf, and that's at least half of their 2nd best position gone.. And we're left with out of position lad on the RW to do a job for the team.. And if Pog wants the lw spot for himself, then it's the bench for M/R with Cavani up front.
We have done well to get where we are now but really need that magical RW to come in and balance the team off. Then it's RW, Bruno, Pog and Cavani sometimes . Martial Rashford on the bench and rotating positions with any fwd position.
How do you keep 2 players out of their best position playing well and on form?. We now have Cavani who's a total Cf, and that's at least half of their 2nd best position gone.. And we're left with out of position lad on the RW to do a job for the team.. And if Pog wants the lw spot for himself, then it's the bench for M/R with Cavani up front.
We have done well to get where we are now but really need that magical RW to come in and balance the team off. Then it's RW, Bruno, Pog and Cavani sometimes . Martial Rashford on the bench and rotating positions with any fwd position.
I’m not sure they are top class on their day. Even when they score they rarely look masterful on the field. Outside of scoring when is the last time Rashford played well? When was the last time Martial played well? Forwards can be brilliant and contribute and not score. If those two don’t get on the score sheet they’re rarely not utterly irrelevant in their contributions on the pitch.
I can’t remember the last time we saw a performance from either. Playing poorly yet managing to score is acceptable for all forwards once in a while but outside of sometimes scoring occasionally there’s very little about either men’s game that’s particularly impressive. They don’t contribute much outside of their own goal tally stats and even they aren’t impressive
I struggle to see they’re two excellent players blighted by form but two average players who contribute very little outside of scoring goals which they don’t do often enough to justify overlooking just how little they contribute normally.
I said it last season Greenwood martial and Rashford at least need very serious competition at a club that wants to challenge for major honours. they can’t be left as the only viable option in their positions because we will get performances like that and then they start the next game and it breeds complacency and rewards poor performance. Rashford needs a long rest and martial needs to be dropped for a few weeks. We’ve tried playing them into form together for 6 months now and for the past few years theyve looked like they can challenge for top 4 but that’s it. If we want to kick on we need more
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I think we are at that stage of our rebuild where Martial and Rashford need to step up and be consistent otherwise they need to be upgraded rather than just have more competition.
Ideally this should be their last season as guaranteed starters.
We really needed Sancho. Would have pushed these two along. Coasting right now.
It's true that the thread has been derailed lately. I would like to add one little thing though because you posted the video with their achievements from last season. I know that many people hate stats and prefer to trust the "eye-test" but it is a fact that both Martial and Greenwood outperformed their xG considerably last season. Martial scored 17 goals with an xG of 11.74 while Mason scored 10 league goals with an xG of 3.58. If there's one thing that xG usually gets right is that particular "regressing to the mean" prediction or the "evening out" of a bad form. For example, when we were dropping points left, right and centre in the first half of last season, the xPts stats were "predicting" that things would eventually become better for us because our points total wasn't reflecting our efforts on the pitch.
Back to our three strikers. Rashford's 7 goals with an xG of 5.69 is no big news really. Whatever his starting position, he's our focal point for finishing our attacking moves. He is given licence to try his luck from distance, he's the main recipient of the balls we play in behind defences and we also try to set him up on the left side to cut inside and shoot. He will get caught offside lots of times because we like to play the early balls in behind and he will miss a lot of chances because no one else, besides Bruno, will have a direct attempt at goal more often. Last season he scored 17 league goals with an xG of 19.93 which was deemed a good season for him.
Martial is a more flair player, he likes to dribble and to finish with a flourish. He may not be a big goalscorer, hence the question marks regarding his ability to lead the line, but more often than not, the goals he scores ooze with quality and this is why he has so many personal fans. Since 2016 he's outperforming his xG by an average rate of +2 (PL stats) but he's not scoring many goals. Last season, he got 17 league goals with an xG of 11.74. Thus far, he's doing worse (2 goals with xG of 4.44), therefore we can expect him to hit form but scoring 15+ league goals will be a bonus.
Greenwood, in his breakthrough season, registered 10 goals with an xG of 3.58. The stats tell us that his current slump in form was to be expected since far more experienced strikers can't keep it up and be so clinical for consecutive seasons. In this sense, the club did a good job in acquiring Cavani's services. He is a seasoned striker who can help us get the necessary goals we need in the bag in order to reach our team goals this season.
Martial and Greenwood's numbers last season seem to be outliers, similar (but not exactly the same) to Kane's 16/17 season, Salah's 17/18 or Mane's 18/19. We should expect improvement but we shouldn't depend on a repetition of what happened last season post-lockdown. It could happen but it probably won't. For example, Lewandowski didn't outperform his xG by more than 3 goals last season (in the Bundesliga) when he was literally on fire and, hands down, the best forward in the world. But when you score 34 goals with an xg of 31, it is an indication that the team worked hard not only to create many but also good chances for its forward.
I believe that our players' numbers will improve but i also believe that is our job to help them. The principal of a rather laissez-faire approach has helped Solskjaer a lot in the early stages of his rebuilding job. The answer from now on lies on what Solskjaer, Phelan and Carrick were shouting at Bruno yesterday: Keep the ball, recycle it and let players from the behind lines join the attack. In other words, work with the ball to create better chances. If we limit the instinctive shots from impossible angles and if we focus on getting players in good positions inside the box, there's a good chance that we won't need Rash, Tony and Mason to outperform their stats. It's no coincidence that our three best chances yesterday came from our ability to create space and time for Shaw and AWB to get in good positions in the final third.
I wouldn't pay 80 million quid for Grealish but by watching us on the pitch, a player of his mould would probably sweeten up our general play in the attacking half.
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Replace Martial with Haaland and we win the league at a canter.
What those pictures don’t show is how well the Liverpool defence boxed him in and shepherded him to safety. It’s not like he ever had a clear opportunity to cut it back to Cavani, Fabinho was parallel blocking that angle at all times.
Exactly, I'm more in praise of Fabhino's covering of Rashford than blaming Rashford for not passing. One thing I might say was that Rashford should not have continued to try and beat Fabinho but rather slowed down and look up to see a better option.
Fixed.
Right but I think the reason he was out off doing that was because Henderson was boxing him in on his right side. If he stopped and turned in left Fabinho would have it, if he tried to cut back to his right Henderson was on his shoulder. In the heat of the moment he fancied his afterburners to create a bit of space ahead of them but with two hustling him he never quite managed to stretch his legs.
Yeah, I’ve watched the replay a few times. He did have a chance to play Cavani in early on but it wasn’t an easy pass and Fabinho would have had a chance to follow the ball and run down Cavani.
After that opportunity went away he had to either beat Fabinho himself or hope for Pogba to somehow find an extra few yards of pace so he could play him through. There was no chance to get the ball to Cavani in any of those images other than some sort of extravagant backheel, which would be easily read.
Basically Fabinho’s management of the situation was absolutely flawless.
Changing a correct statement to an incorrect statement doesn’t “fix” anything.
i don’t think so. When you see Rashford running blindly, martial walking around and Bruno misplacing simple passes then you’re relying on your fullbacks to provide service which isn’t ideal. I think haaland would probably struggle in this team currently too. He’s a great player and something we need but I think we need actual wingers playing with him
Fixed again. You're welcome.
We have an xG 30 and have scored 34 goals yet it’s our attackers that are the problem? This thread should be labeled “Pogba, Fred and mctominay are not creative enough and is Ole selecting a balanced midfield to support our attackers?”
Hang on, Martial has two league goals but is only expected to have 4 (rounded down) by almost the halfway point of the season?
So the problem lies in the team not creating enough goal-scoring chances for him. He has three league assists, but is that enough to compensate for the dearth of goals? We need to do something different because this isn't working for us or him.
Is it because our "outlet" ball is usually to Rashford? But Martial is as quick and skilful as Rashford, so why can't he also be an outlet? Is it because he wants the ball to feet? So many questions, which I think is what's frustrating fans. We should know how to get the best from Martial after five years here, and we should be seeing it. But if this is it, it's not working.
‘Yes, this thread is a train wreck. I sometimes wonder, in this day and age, what it means to be a club supporter.
I don't know how to comprehend their position in the squad and on the pitch. Martial is played on the left and in the central position. Rashford is played on both the flanks. They're not getting used to either positions and it's hurting our game. Last season when we had no option but to play Rashford on the left, Martial central and Greenwood on the right; they slowly but clearly grew into those positions and made more out of it but this season it's been catastrophic with the addition of Cavani in the mix. They've all moved positions and every game there is a change in position and it is hurting the flow of the game. Martial has dropped very badly this season and Rashford (although has been scoring some important goals) hasn't performed to the heights expected of him. They need to be played in a certain position and they need to be played there week in week out in order to establish their position in the team. Ole needs to make a decision with the formation, players, position and stick to it so they can learn more and more about each others' movements in and around the box. Sancho or the addition of a proper wide right sided forward will solve most of our problems but these guys have to improve their all round game and specially their finishing. It has been nothing less than ridiculous.
Just been looking at MUFCINFO.com at the comparative PL goal strike ratios of the current squad against their predecessors and from this it looks like
http://www.mufcinfo.com/manupag/com...mestic_competition/all_premiership_goals.html
The all competitions stats vary slightly but not enough to make a huge difference to their relative standings.
This says to me that Martial and Rashford are not world-class or even elite. RvN scored 150 goals in 219 games. Martial and Rashford have scored 157 in 487 games.
A couple of posters have said that what counts is getting the ball in the net and I follow this view. With approaching a combined decade of first team experience, I don't see Martial and Rashford making the jump to the top level in our record books but I'd love to be proved wrong (and the sooner the better).
- Martial and Rashford with a rate of .31 and .33 respectively are OK but not top drawer against others who wore their jerseys. They sit in a cluster with Ole @ .34, Berba @ .38, Saha @ .34, Tevez @ .34, Hernandez @ .38
- Our most regular goal scorers are/were RvN @ .69, Rvp @ .55, Rooney @ .45, Bruno @.55, Lukaku @ .44. Eric @.44, Cole @ .44, Yorke @ .43, CR7 @ .4
- Greenwood is firing @ .27 after 74 games, which is better than Scholes @ .21, Welbeck @ .2 and Giggs @ .17
- For the benefit of any old timers reading this, Gordon Hill comes in @ .38!!
http://www.mufcinfo.com/manupag/com...mestic_competition/all_premiership_goals.html
The all competitions stats vary slightly but not enough to make a huge difference to their relative standings.
This says to me that Martial and Rashford are not world-class or even elite. RvN scored 150 goals in 219 games. Martial and Rashford have scored 157 in 487 games.
A couple of posters have said that what counts is getting the ball in the net and I follow this view. With approaching a combined decade of first team experience, I don't see Martial and Rashford making the jump to the top level in our record books but I'd love to be proved wrong (and the sooner the better).
If you look at his stats throughout his career with us, you'll see that this is the norm for him. In 15/16 he had 11/7.20xG, in 16/17: 4/3.28xG, in 17/18: 9/6.79xG, in 18/19: 10/7.56xG and we come to 19/20 where he scored 17 goals with an xG of 11.74. It can be explained in the sense that he is a player who likes to receive the ball to his feet in a team that prefers to pass the ball into space mostly. And, unlike Rash and Bruno, Martial likes to pick his moments. I know it wasn't the case under LvG but we used to struggle a lot under Louis in the chance creation category.
Credit to Solskjaer who has almost doubled his shots stats last season from around 40 to 80. The quality of the shots remains an issue because an xG of +5.26 is more likely to regress than to be improved upon.
Furthermore, he's usually the one who has to open up pockets of space for the others by occupying the opposition centre-halves or by dropping deeper to receive the ball and link up with others. Whether he's doing it well or not is open for discussion. On top of that, his trademark move of starting in the centre and moving to the left to receive the ball and get an opportunity for an iso play against a CB, demands the rest... Rash, Cavani(Greenwood), Bruno and Shaw... to be involved. And for that to happen, we need good ball retention in the attacking half and a patient passing game. But can McFred support such a passing game? Martial can score goals on the counter but the majority of the goals he scored last season where when either Matic or Pogba (or both post lockdown) were on the pitch. Most of the others were against canon fodder like Norwich and Newcastle. On the other hand, the McT/Fred partnership has proved to be crucial in Solskjaer's plans. You see things aren't black and white.
The main issue is that Rash, Tony and Greenwood are hardly creators themselves. They are not the same players but they all understand the game as forwards. Rashford is not the only one with tunnel vision near the edge of the box. This leads to another problem: 9/10 of our attacking plays have to go through Bruno. At a club with our aspirations the forwards have to be able to provide variables: Ability on the half-turn, receive the ball with back to goal, ball circulation, creating numerical advantages etc.
This means that we have to create better chances for them (i mentioned it earlier) but they also need to keep adding things to their game. The importance of a good passing game can never be overstated. The crazy thing about City is that they actually DON'T outperform their xG significantly. Even in their last _not so good season_, xG suggests that they fully deserved their 102(!) goals. But are Jesus and Sterling so much better than our lads? Don't think so. They create more options for themselves by controlling the ball and pushing numbers forward. Liverpool are more similar to us in the sense that they thrive in the phase "between transitions". But their general play has benefitted a lot from the numerical advantages and the work between the lines that their front-three can offer. They pin down opponents and they bombard them with "first-time" shots, crosses, through balls etc. SAF did the same but he always craved for balance: creativity on the wings and one of the two forwards (Cantona, Rooney, Cole) was always able to find pockets of space between the lines. He wasn't just filling the starting line-up with forwards.
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Change the thread to Martial is a problem. Mid January and he's been awful all season.
Such a shame given how good he looked towards end of last season. If fact he Greenwood and rashford were the one area of the team I felt we had no reason to worry about. Very strange how all 3 have fallen away so badly in a short time, though rashford has still hit a very good level just not often enough
I already have big question marks about Martial. I don't think he's good enough for United.
Rashfords decision making makes me wish there was a better option out there.
His decision making is absolutely atrocious and will cost United titles in the big games, Rashford cost United 2 extra points yesterday, a chance to get a buffer over Liverpool and City, now City can overtake United.
Need a winger who knows when to pass, cross versus head down and smack it as hard as he can to try to score.
Rashfords decision making makes me wish there was a better option out there.
His decision making is absolutely atrocious and will cost United titles in the big games, Rashford cost United 2 extra points yesterday, a chance to get a buffer over Liverpool and City, now City can overtake United.
Need a winger who knows when to pass, cross versus head down and smack it as hard as he can to try to score.
Comparing Rashford, who started this season aged 22 with the strike-rate of former strikers who joined the club in their prime is incredibly unfair. Even Martial, who is 25 now, will have his averages dragged down by joining the club when much younger than Ruud, Berbatov, Yorke, Cole, RvP etc
You would need to calculate it per 90' to get a clearer picture and compare it to rest of the league. For sure there are other teams that create more chances but in our case it's Rashford, Cavani, Martial, and Greenwood so there is no one striker getting all the chances.
For example, based on last season form he scored 17 goals from xG=10,9, meaning he overachieved by 55%. If he remained on that level he'd have 6 goals this season already. Based on this season (2 goals from xG=3,7), he's scoring 54% of expected goals which is very low.
Another way to look at it: If Martial was as bad as he is this season in converting chances last season, he'd score 6 goals instead of 17.
Also, last season he accumulated 0,37xG/game, this season it's 0,34 so pretty much the same.
All in all, he is performing badly this season but he set the bar very high last season.
I'm not sure it's as simple as that. xG is a judgement of how likely each goal is to be scored taking account of range, angle, how the ball is received, etc. But it doesn't take account of who the player is.
So you would expect a player who is a better finisher than the average (however you define that) to outperform their xG consistently. You would expect all players combined to approximately match xG.
I understand your point but it does help to shape thinking regarding recruitment and how long do you give players to become established? What we're seeing this season is regression. Maybe they will play themselves out of it, but do you believe that they will reach the .45 plus rates over their full careers?
That s true also
In recent times only Messi consistently outperforms his xG. Even Ronaldo has regressed to the mean in the last 4-5 years. Lewandowski rarely scores more than 3-4 goals than his xG suggests. Kane had a +9xG in 16/17 but his numbers are similar to Lewa's. This season he has 12 goals with 10.05xG. Even Mane and Salah have outperformed their xG significantly only once each in their Liverpool careers. In this sense, xG suggets that if you're not Messi, you are dependable on the chances your team creates for you and on the chances you can create by your skills. But you can't score worldies for consecutive seasons.
Well Rooney is the only striker on that list who was at United for (almost ) his whole career so, as I said, it’s not a fair comparison. Similar to the way Ronaldo’s strikerate is lower than almost everyone on the list despite becoming the best striker of the lot.
As for how long I would give a player to get established the answer is longer than Rashford is being given by many on here. Especially when he’s coming off the back of a season with a very acceptable number of goals.
Ruud: 128
Hernandez: 131
Bruno: 141
RVP: 142
Ole: 152
Berbatov: 153
Cole: 155
Yorke: 155
Rooney: 173
Ronaldo: 173
Lukaku: 179
Saha: 180
Greenwood: 187
Cantona: 197
Martial: 208
Rashford: 214
Tevez: 239
Welbeck: 253
Rashford's young enough that I could see him improving somewhat, on the other hand I think Martial's now pretty much the player he'll always be.
Wouldn't you have to strip out penalties to compare between those who did and didn't take them?
I'm finding this a useful discussion with good insights BTW, thanks guys.
Maybe there’s a risk of paralysis by analysis? I equate consistency to reliability, so whichever way you look at it, a proven goal scorer keeps putting the ball in the net when chances present. In the case of penalties, these can be missed or scored, like any other chance. Responsoibility for taking them is a sign of reliability too.
In each of these comparisons, what is clear is that Martial and Rashford don’t compare well with the majority of the names on this list. Pogue has pointed out age and experience differences, which is fair but it still feels to me like neither of them are demonstrating that they are improving as their game time increases.
If we wanted to buy an attacker and each of them played for someone else, would you buy either of them now? And if so, how much would you pay for them?
God I hope so. Having someone in the same league as Harry Kane leading the line would be such a drastic improvement in our performances and hopefully, results.
I know that is dumb because you could say that about any team, and I am not helpful because I don't really know any options for the role, besides Haaland. But, we will go nowhere if we keep relying on Martial.