RedCafe has become toxic as feck.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I'm not remotely interested in mixing sport and politics. Football for me is an escape from the daily grind. Its supposed to be something to enjoy, and so is talking about it. The day I stop looking forward to United matches I'll just stop watching entirely.
Where does that train of thought come from? Are people not allowed to support players and the manager of a club the support? Are people who support a manager really the ones who create a toxic atmosphere? I just don’t get your post.
Personally never wanted Ole as manager as I knew he’d end up getting abused for his limitations as a manager.
Not as bad in your opinion, in other people's opinion it's worse than ever.
That's the problem with what you suggest, as soon as you try and "create a balance" you are using a single opinion to decide what makes the grade and what doesn't. You "balance" is just a nicer way of saying "censor". I don't think negative opinions should be censored.
The forum finds its own balance, if there are more negative posts than positive that reflects where the club is at and the opinions of the fanbase.
What a thread to put this in
That was intentional. Hahahaha
Anyone who defends this CEO or these owners can go play on the M60 as far as I care.
In other words, what the "Greater Internet feckwad Theory" stated back in early 2000.
As a fanbase we have certain expectations of our club, whether realistic or not. We expect to challenge for the title each year and go far in the CL and cups. We expect to recruit well - well thought out recruitment that improves the team year on year. We expect that behind the scenes work is being done to improve our operations on and off the pitch. We expect to be an ambitious, competitive, world leading club.
None of our expectations are being met. Yes we may be have been spoilt in the past, but the continuous failings of the club to deliver on the above expectations creates resentment. We are p*ssed off and frustrated at what we see and our inability to as fans to change this, and inevitably it creates toxicity. Some fans will take better to our uncompetitiveness better than others. We are a club and a fanbase divided and that is not exclusive to this site.
None of our expectations are being met. Yes we may be have been spoilt in the past, but the continuous failings of the club to deliver on the above expectations creates resentment. We are p*ssed off and frustrated at what we see and our inability to as fans to change this, and inevitably it creates toxicity. Some fans will take better to our uncompetitiveness better than others. We are a club and a fanbase divided and that is not exclusive to this site.
Well that's a different matter. I do agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of this thread though
You can't avoid it at the minute though. It's endless hot takes and repetitive parroting of old views and people attacking posters - like you are doing now - with ad hominem attacks instead of engaging with the point they're making. Free speech is no good if 99% of that speech is Twitter level bullshit or aggressive abuse directed at players, club or staff. Imagine if you as a football player read any of the utter nonsense people say on here.
Is that that same for positive posts as well then? Should they be removed if they can fit another thread?
Right now we have two threads on the front page for Pellistri, one on him signing and another on his performances. Should they be merged? Or are we just moaning about something that isn't a problem?
Not arguing the point just find it hypocritical, it's like Trump telling Biden to stop lying.
Make good use of the ignore button, a few (hundreds) after this place is more bearable.
I swear I never muted/blocked/ignored anyone until the last 3-4 years then I started, never looked back
I swear I never muted/blocked/ignored anyone until the last 3-4 years then I started, never looked back
It's a reflection of our current culture, people rather snipe each other and complain rather than calm down
Thank You Bilbo for raising the same concerns as me
Denis79, I have already at multiple points in this thread, stated that I have been guilty of these sorts of things here and have taken a step back from it all and realised that at points I too have contributed to it, when it's just not needed, I've held my hands up and felt that ok, even I, usually most placid in real life, have bitten and reacted when may be I shouldn't have and there's a time to start to find a way to weed out this behaviour from posters and from posters who are usually very good, reacting in such a way that they shouldn't
Your attitude and the way you’ve replied to posts here are the discussions I try to avoid to be honest, passive aggressiveness and sarcasm. You may have a point so I’ll concede
The toxicity is the result of the frustration and disappointment caused by different factors. Right now the toxicity is even higher simply because the disappointment is even bigger than previous years , which is mainly because many fans were pretty confident going into this season compared to the last years. Despite the loss against Sevilla the football played was pretty promising and the 2nd half of the season was overall really good. So I really think many , me included, were really looking forward to a good season and the start has been absolutuely terrible so far.
In addition to this no new RW and CB singning..
In addition to this no new RW and CB singning..
There are some who are aggressive and confrontational no matter what. Others can debate about it. This is the same with both Ole in and Ole out. It has been always the same even in the old BBC forum. We should not be personal about it. Most and I am sure almost every fan wants United to be the best club in the World. No one here supports the owners as far as I can see. Yes they do get blamed for appointing various managers who have not been capable of turning it around.
I am of the opinion that Ole is not good enough but I am most happy when United win a match no matter what. When they lose I get frustrated and angry of course. At the players if they feck it up and the manager for not being competent enough to change the match. I do not abuse them.
But when we lose there are some who come and have a vitriolic view of it( Just like abusing Maguire and Ole) or when we win to come and gloat at the Ole out brigade. This is what it makes so toxic.
A lot of good members here who can debate on the football too. So it is not everyone who is toxic here.
I am of the opinion that Ole is not good enough but I am most happy when United win a match no matter what. When they lose I get frustrated and angry of course. At the players if they feck it up and the manager for not being competent enough to change the match. I do not abuse them.
But when we lose there are some who come and have a vitriolic view of it( Just like abusing Maguire and Ole) or when we win to come and gloat at the Ole out brigade. This is what it makes so toxic.
A lot of good members here who can debate on the football too. So it is not everyone who is toxic here.
Hear hear. I agree with everything here.
Too many people believe that free speech means that they should be allowed to post anything. No, free speech means you are free from prosecution of the Government for voicing your opinion.
It doesn't mean that a privately owned forum (like redcafe is) have to allow all voices equal room if they feel it's bringing their forum in a negative direction.
I'm not necessarily advocating for us doing this here now, but as an example:
I work in an industry where there are people very vocal about what we are doing, and as such there are communities around elements of it. At my last company we had a discussion forum that had turned very toxic, where a core group of members were feeding off each others negativity. Since it had been left alone and nobody dealt with the toxicity, it had turned so bad that they were the ones creating most of the discussions, scaring away anyone new coming in.
The owners of the company were quite reluctant to deal with them as some of the worst ones were the most longstanding fans that had been the most supportive from the beginning.
It wasn't even part of my job to deal with this, but I saw how it was negatively affecting the communication and vibe around our company (and thus the employees tasked to interact with it). I persuaded the managers to finally ban certain members after repeated warnings, and within weeks the forum grew to become much more active with lots of new people coming in that wasn't immediately put off by the toxicity and behavior that those "hardcore" people knew better cause they had been fans for longer.
I'm not saying that just banning a few people will solve our club, I'm just pointing out how negativity feeds on negativity, and can actively block other positive discussion from happening.
Couldn't agree more with the OP. Threads predicting when our manager is sacked and the like, general toxic conversation, the Ole-out thread bumped after each game (good or bad). I just cant get behind that.
We must however remember that this is a first class forum and it's not the forum's fault the club is in such a bad place at the moment.
Also there is a MASSIVE hatred (rightly so) towards the Glazers and with no real way for the fans to vent that anger it inevitably spills out here on the forum. Where we should draw the line is when it litters every thread, every signing (see Cavani), every topic.
It's not about acceptance of people's opinions, of course that's what a forum is for, but when peoples negativity affects other peoples experience of the forum itself then (in my opinion at least) it should be curbed. Easier said than done. But if this is the no 1 forum for all things Manchester United in my opinion it should be 'pro United' but it's anything but at the moment.
We must however remember that this is a first class forum and it's not the forum's fault the club is in such a bad place at the moment.
Also there is a MASSIVE hatred (rightly so) towards the Glazers and with no real way for the fans to vent that anger it inevitably spills out here on the forum. Where we should draw the line is when it litters every thread, every signing (see Cavani), every topic.
It's not about acceptance of people's opinions, of course that's what a forum is for, but when peoples negativity affects other peoples experience of the forum itself then (in my opinion at least) it should be curbed. Easier said than done. But if this is the no 1 forum for all things Manchester United in my opinion it should be 'pro United' but it's anything but at the moment.
Who's Johnno, or are you being sarcastic.Oh, hello Johnno
How do you accurately determine a good post from a bad one, and by extension, a good poster from a bad one, when everything is relative?
"Judge not for ye shall be judged"
Or something.
"Judge not for ye shall be judged"
Or something.
We are competitive though, and we have a manager in charge who clearly bleeds for this club and has made a lot of self-less decisions that will benefit us going forwards, probably after he himself will see the benefits. He gets torn apart on here. Its unnecessary. There are many better ways to voice the frustrations that you feel constructively without having to go there (generally speaking, not aimed at you).
For me, the Glazers are largely fair game. They take more than they give and show no indication of love for this club. Tearing apart the players and staff that so obviously do want the best for us is wrong, and that more than anything is where this forum tips into toxicity.
I didn't ask about your interests though and what football means to you, but appreciate you sharing that.
I do doubt the logic of viewing anti Glazer/Woodward/Ole opinions as anti Manchester United ones. Hence the political analogy on which your view is ...?
And others can view sport differently to you of course.
Agree. Ole have been thrown under the bus like other managers before him. Glazers and Woodward are to blame for this.
I don't agree with that last sentence. I've noticed a whole lot of posters, who historically have not been so prone to posting emotionally/negatively, that don't post here anymore. The excessive moaning is driving people away. That's not balance.
Totally agree. It’s toxic as feck.
There’s also a huge difference between constructive criticism (which is fine!) and wishing our captain would hurry up and get sentenced so he can rot away in a Greek jail.
Head over to the United Instagram feed and check out comments on any post relating to Chris Smalling’s departure. Harry Maguires name gets dropped into almost every comment. So instead of a positive series of well wishes for a long-time club servant we have endless sledging of our current captain. It’s disgraceful.
Feck those “supporters.” They don’t deserve our history.
I also seriously worry about the mental health of some players if this keeps up. My wife is a counsellor and a few of her clients are high profile football players. They’re not immune to it, and I’d have thought in this day and age we’d show a bit more collective empathy around the issue.
There’s also a huge difference between constructive criticism (which is fine!) and wishing our captain would hurry up and get sentenced so he can rot away in a Greek jail.
Head over to the United Instagram feed and check out comments on any post relating to Chris Smalling’s departure. Harry Maguires name gets dropped into almost every comment. So instead of a positive series of well wishes for a long-time club servant we have endless sledging of our current captain. It’s disgraceful.
Feck those “supporters.” They don’t deserve our history.
I also seriously worry about the mental health of some players if this keeps up. My wife is a counsellor and a few of her clients are high profile football players. They’re not immune to it, and I’d have thought in this day and age we’d show a bit more collective empathy around the issue.
Personally I don’t think the cafe is anywhere near as toxic as Twitter!
There is much more sensible discussions on here with plenty of valid points.
There is much more sensible discussions on here with plenty of valid points.
That's fair enough but you have to realise all posters won't feel the same way you do about the players or the manager. The same way some praise a player, some will criticise, it's a part of football and if you can't take that, take a break from the forum. Same way you strongly believe Ole is the man to take us forward others will feel the opposite.
It's the nature of man to defend a opinion even more firmly if attacked. The name calling of other posters has to stop more so than the actual hyperbole of who's shit and who's not.
He said cult following, thats not supporting. Way before JM became United manager, he had fans among so called United supporters and even today after everything he said and done, he still has, you can see them among those who critic Ole today, their agenda is different than rest. Now, maybe its me who is weird but how that works actually, you supporting United while being a fan of a person who at the time goes against a team you supposedly supporting and winning titles with Chelsea and have zero connection with United in the past. Similar case with Amadeus and Poch.
We take the piss out of Bluemoon and RAWK. Some people on here are definitely other supporters and a there are a few others a lot worst than the ones we laugh about.
Short memory? Werent United 8th? United were miles off top 4 with no chance in sight, somehow beat city 3 times in a row. lost pogba and rashford due to injury. The lockdown helped us out massively as they both were fit for return. And the collapse of Sheffield and Leicester city wouldn't have happened without covid or the great run they had, would have continued.
It was a miracle only from the position he put us in. All in all I'd say it was just about acceptable as far as league campaigns go. I'm sure you wouldn't call a manager who takes us near relegation and then lifts us to 5th as a miracle worker. We were really happy at the end of last season but your statement was a bit funny
That’s like saying something isn’t as bad as Hitler, as a positive. Twitter is the absolute pits, but it’s where this place is headed.
Agree completely with this.....We should all be bouncing with joy after the brilliant start that we”ve had this season...Supporters are completely out of order for expressing their displeasure....After all we”ve only lost 2 out of our first 3 games...We”ve conceded just 11 goals in 3 league games....Let’s flood this forum with some positivity now....
Yes, I am being sarcastic.
We laughed at RAWK for their mellodramatic love letters to Rafa (they were cringy as feck though) and the whole "next year" schtick, but honestly i'd much prefer naive optimism over endless moaning and pessimism.
We were spolied as feck under Fergie and this fall from grace has been hard to stomach, espcially when fecking Liverpool and City and dominating the league, but as far as football fans go we are still one of the more privlieged fan bases in the world so it could be a lot worse. Unless of course you became a fan in 2013, then your time as a United supporter have been fecking awful
I'd say most of the toxicity stems from the whole Ole in/out debate and both sides are guitly there.
We were spolied as feck under Fergie and this fall from grace has been hard to stomach, espcially when fecking Liverpool and City and dominating the league, but as far as football fans go we are still one of the more privlieged fan bases in the world so it could be a lot worse. Unless of course you became a fan in 2013, then your time as a United supporter have been fecking awful
I'd say most of the toxicity stems from the whole Ole in/out debate and both sides are guitly there.
Been a lurker on RedCafe since the early 2000s when it had a full website and forum.
The ambience and mood then seemed different (greater positivity and loftier ambitions) than what it is now. There was a sense of justified arrogance about supporting United and it came across in the posts.
Things have changed dramatically ever since winning games was no longer a foregone conclusion anymore. Every game is now an epic battle rather than a mostly one-sided affair. Understandably there is greater frustration now than ever before.
The ambience and mood then seemed different (greater positivity and loftier ambitions) than what it is now. There was a sense of justified arrogance about supporting United and it came across in the posts.
Things have changed dramatically ever since winning games was no longer a foregone conclusion anymore. Every game is now an epic battle rather than a mostly one-sided affair. Understandably there is greater frustration now than ever before.
Then keep your opinions to yourself please.
Yeah, there's always balance that's needed in these debates. I've read a few times some claiming the achievement of third as a "miracle" - even though top 4 was the target when the season started as there really wasn't any teams to fear outside of Pool and City. Unless we start thinking the season/Ole only started when Bruno arrived, yeah. Then maybe it was a "miracle".
It would be interesting to see a bell curve of sorts. What sort of percentage of fans would be on either "extreme" (PE teacher vs miracle worker) and what percentage would be in the middle 2 quartiles.