Religion, what's the point?

Carolina Red said:
Of course I don’t believe that.

But yes, that’s exactly what they claim.
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Yep. My family members forgave Jimmy Swaggart for his adultery ("he was humbled on live TV!") and support Kenneth Copeland despite his potion-scheme masqueraded as a church.

They treat these guys like the cult leaders they are.
 
I like watching Copeland and co. to see how they slip the scamming into their scripture. Osteen has a lovely smile too. I like to watch him every now and then.
 
Liberty University (evangelical Christian university in Virginia) already had hired the Baylor athletic director who got caught up in a cover up of a sex scandal...

Now they’ve hired Hugh Freese as football coach, who got let go at Ole Miss for calling hookers on his school phone.
 
Okay, logic says that religion is probably a lie. But why so many people still go to church?

I think the answer is: community.

Religion is the strongest community building factor of them all. In the United States, society is completely fragmented and there is zero community feeling, no matter how many politicians talk about "community". Everyone's dream is to make more money and move to a better area, and if they succeed doing that, they abandon and they forget their former neighbors (their former "community"). The only real sense of community is the church. No other factors give you any sense of real community.

And people need to belong in a community to feel happy. They need to feel they belong in something greater than themselves. If you take away religion, nothing is left.

That's the main reason people are willing to turn a blind eye to abhorrent behavior by church officials, and to logic. Your family might have some bad characters, but they have to go too far to cause you to completely abandon them. Your church is your community, they have to go too far for you to abandon them. And if you do abandon them, what is left? You don't belong anywhere any more. Secularism does not create a community.


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Here is my previous post for reference:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/religion-whats-the-point.215250/page-269#post-23352907
 
CA_vampire said:
Okay, logic says that religion is probably a lie. But why so many people still go to church?

I think the answer is: community.

Religion is the strongest community building factor of them all. In the United States, society is completely fragmented and there is zero community feeling, no matter how many politicians talk about "community". Everyone's dream is to make more money and move to a better area, and if they succeed doing that, they abandon and they forget their former neighbors (their former "community"). The only real sense of community is the church. No other factors give you any sense of real community.

And people need to belong in a community to feel happy. They need to feel they belong in something greater than themselves. If you take away religion, nothing is left.

That's the main reason people are willing to turn a blind eye to abhorrent behavior by church officials, and to logic. Your family might have some bad characters, but they have to go too far to cause you to completely abandon them. Your church is your community, they have to go too far for you to abandon them. And if you do abandon them, what is left? You don't belong anywhere any more. Secularism does not create a community.


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Here is my previous post for reference:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/religion-whats-the-point.215250/page-269#post-23352907
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Weekly church attendance in the United states is trending down. A Gallup poll had it at 38% of all Americans in 2017, down from 42% in 2008.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/pol...s-declining-religious-service-attendance.aspx

In many European countries the drop in attendance is way more drastic. 70% of people aged 16-29 in England do not attend church services weekly and not only that, they also do not identify with any religion. Similar trends can be seen in traditionally strong christian nations like Spain and Portugal which both now have the highest percentages ever of people who don't identify with any religion.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...christian-europe-young-people-survey-religion

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/re...England-attendance-plunges-to-record-low.html

People are looking to other places for a sense of community it would seem
 
Cardinal George Pell, the #3 man in the Catholic Church, has just been found guilty on 2 counts of sexually abusing altar boys.

The story can't be reported on in full here as there is another trial going ahead in February.
 
CA_vampire said:
Okay, logic says that religion is probably a lie. But why so many people still go to church?
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people still go to church?

or, further: people under the age of 50 still go to church?

you're right about community, but people find community in all sorts of things now - the pub, sports, the arts, the gym, the internet. the church is rightly dying, and is likely made up of 80%+ old people.
 
Handré1990 said:
The funny thing about that is the fact that it ‘horrified’ his family. This really shouldn’t be news to Catholics.
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I suppose you hope a new pope might improve attitudes but this is just like the horrid letter the bishop wrote when jamie Bland had his life support machine switched off.

As the last of the Hillsborough victims to die his family agonised over the decision for years and then it had to go through a judicial process.

The bishop then sends out a letter, knowing they attend one of his parishes denouncing the decision, saying it is a mortal sin etc etc.
 
Is anyone looking at the events of Greek Orthodox Church? Bartholomew of Constantinople (first among equals, and the spiritual leader of Greek Orthodoxs) wants to grant independence/autocephaly to Ukrainian Orthodox Church (essentially their three churches getting united and being independent). This seems to have pissed off Russian Church and Russian politicians. Likely because of its influence (despite being only the 7th most senior Church, it has almost half of Orthodoxs population) most of the other churches are siding with Russians in this one. Russia has broken communication and essentially declared Bartholomew as heretic, as have done Russian satellite churches, with other churches siding with Russians (bar Romanian Church who is siding with Constantinople, Albanian Church calling for dialogue, and Alexandria and Jerusalem not siding with anyone).

Could this have consequences like a religious war in Ukraine? Could church of Constantinople be relegated from the most important Orthodox church, to the Church of Turkey, and Russian Church becoming the most important church (in practice, they already are)? Could this lead to another grand schism of Eastern Orthodox Church?
 
buchansleftleg said:
I suppose you hope a new pope might improve attitudes but this is just like the horrid letter the bishop wrote when jamie Bland had his life support machine switched off.

As the last of the Hillsborough victims to die his family agonised over the decision for years and then it had to go through a judicial process.

The bishop then sends out a letter, knowing they attend one of his parishes denouncing the decision, saying it is a mortal sin etc etc.
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I mean those people chose to follow/believe in the Catholic doctrine, suicide is a mortal sin, hence, it shouldn’t be news to them. As an aside, all religions have these arbitrary rules, but most followers have the choice to jump ship. If they havent’t they shouldn’t feel shocked when religious leaders point out failure in the eyes of their beliefs.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
I believe that Satan doesn't actually lie to people in the Bible. Whilst Yahweh does so many horrible things, including lying of course.
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Even his name is Luciferi, which means kind of 'the bringer of light', which can be interpreted as the bringer of knowledge. I mean, he gave knowledge to Adam and Eve. Where have we seen it before? Prometheus, who has brought fire/knowledge to humans. In both cases, he was punished from God, be if Jahweh or Zeus.

The legend of Satan is essentially a unification of Angra Mainyu from Zorostrianism with an European spin (Prometheus of Greeks). However when you consider things, he doesn't do anything bad actually. The fecker has always trying to help us, while the God was making wars, doing genocide and so on.
 
Revan said:
Even his name is Luciferi, which means kind of 'the bringer of light', which can be interpreted as the bringer of knowledge. I mean, he gave knowledge to Adam and Eve. Where have we seen it before? Prometheus, who has brought fire/knowledge to humans. In both cases, he was punished from God, be if Jahweh or Zeus.

The legend of Satan is essentially a unification of Angra Mainyu from Zorostrianism with an European spin (Prometheus of Greeks). However when you consider things, he doesn't do anything bad actually. The fecker has always trying to help us, while the God was making wars, doing genocide and so on.
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Exactly, all of those characters are based upon earlier mythical characters from various belief systems.

The story about Adam, Eve and the Garden of Eden is ludicrous if taken literally (as the bashers do). Are we to believe that all of humanity was born from the incestuous relationship of Adam, Eve and their three sons? And as you point out, who is the good guy in that story - the snake who was showing Adam and Eve how to become enlightened, or the God who would curse every person to ever exist because Adam and Eve wished to eat from the tree of knowledge?

An omnipotent God would surely have seen that coming anyway.
 
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"My life is in danger. My family threatens to kill me for the most trivial things."

Ms Mohammed al-Qunun tweeted that her father had arrived, "which worried and scared me a lot"

Just absolutely fecking mental.
 
Why are countries like Thailand and India forcing these people to return against their will?

This feels like the fugitive slave law on a worldwide scale
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Why are countries like Thailand and India forcing these people to return against their will?

This feels like the fugitive slave law on a worldwide scale
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Has the answer got anything to do with Saudi influence?
 
Olly Gunnar Solskjær said:
"My life is in danger. My family threatens to kill me for the most trivial things."

Ms Mohammed al-Qunun tweeted that her father had arrived, "which worried and scared me a lot"

Just absolutely fecking mental.
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tbf, if my daugther ran away she'd do well to be scared if she saw me coming to pick her up. So, the fear she's reporting while real, may not be unusual, if that makes any sense.
 
utdalltheway said:
tbf, if my daugther ran away she'd do well to be scared if she saw me coming to pick her up. So, the fear she's reporting while real, may not be unusual, if that makes any sense.
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I think cases like this are not the same as an angry dad and a rebel teenage girl.
 
utdalltheway said:
tbf, if my daugther ran away she'd do well to be scared if she saw me coming to pick her up. So, the fear she's reporting while real, may not be unusual, if that makes any sense.
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Yeah in a normal case I can see that, but this seems to be, "They're going to kill me. Literally murder me" which separates it slightly.
 
Feminist *and* atheist... good luck.

If her story is true, I hope (pray? :nervous:) she can get away.
LGBT, atheist, and otherwise dissenting voices on social networks in places like Saudi Arabia are incredibly vulnerable to the doxxing of personal information. It’s such a popular activity among the truly devout and sociopathic that there’s now an app that lets you report atheists directly to Saudi cops. Doxxing is unpleasant anywhere, but Saudi Arabia is one of the few places where it can easily get you imprisoned, or worse.
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I spoke with atheists who were also legal minors. There was Lisa, a girl in a coastal city far away from Riyadh. From her experience, being farther away from the capital meant less danger, as she found social conservatism to be far stronger in the heart of al Saud’s power.

Like most I talked to, she hadn’t been an atheist for more than a year. When I asked her what spurred her into nonbelief, she warned me, “first answer is ridiculous and gross.”

“I think the number one reason that gave me doubts was... shitting. I just couldn’t believe that allah would do that on purpose. How can you shit one minute and then be praying the next?”

She subsequently showed me something she had been writing about why she no longer believes. Her reasons went far deeper than the scatological. She spoke about the gross abuses of power at the hands of religious police, preachers, and families; the shame that is drilled into Saudi children’s heads; the mutaween who terrorize at will; and the ever-present fear she feels, all of which made a child in one of the world’s most powerful theocracies decide there was no God.

Fear was the common thread among everyone I spoke to. That fear is made worse by the arbitrary way in which the state metes out punishment. A vocal atheist or gay person may get lashes, imprisonment, execution, or a slap on the wrist, depending on how powerful the clan they belong to is, whether they’re connected to the sharia judge or not, and how angry hardliners are at their transgression.

Before the state gets involved, punishment for straying from the narrow path of acceptability is frequently dealt out by families and Saudi society at large.
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Families usually make an attempt to bring atheists back to the light of belief by bringing in an imam before resorting to other measures, but it’s more perilous if their sexuality is what offends. “Your family will harm you if you bring shame to them,” Rebecca, an atheist student, told me. “Being LGBT is more shameful and harder to hide.”

Privately-administered punishments for LGBT family members range from essentially imprisoning them in their own homes to exiling them, from corporal punishments to death. In one case I was told of, a girl who was found to be gay was shot by members of her own family. They told the authorities that she died cleaning a gun, an explanation apparently acceptable to everyone.

Young people in Saudi Arabia are not automatons who pray five times a day and wait to get married. They have lives, relationships, and the same dramas that kids anywhere else do. They drink, smoke, and have sex, despite the laws of the land. They usually do so in compound parties, big soirees where clans invite their friends over to their walled-off estates, mostly away from the prying eyes of the public. But if you’re a nonbeliever or LGBT, even this isn’t a safe option. To be caught drinking is one thing, but if the authorities who bust up the party take your phone and see that you’re an atheist or gay, it becomes a whole different set of problems.

For Sarah, an atheist and lesbian minor, the solution is easy: To avoid the ire of Saudi society, she avoids Saudi society. “The pretending is somewhat easy. I just avoid interacting with people when I can.”
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Grylte said:
I think cases like this are not the same as an angry dad and a rebel teenage girl.
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And yet she is a rebellious teenager. If her life truly is in danger then put her on the plane to Oz and let her apply for asylum there.
Would the Aussies let her in?
 
All good I was trying to be funny with the pray tell bit, but failed :(
 
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