Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[neverdie]

Which state funds them?

the us and eu apparently.

 

[The Firestarter]

the us and eu apparently.

Any official info on this?

 

[the hea]

the us and eu apparently.

Could you please provide some info about this?

This is what they say themself:

Bellingcat does not solicit or accept funding and contributions directly from any national government. Bellingcat can solicit or accept contributions from international or intergovernmental institutions such as the European Commission or the United Nations.

If it is like you are saying and they are receiving direct state funding from the US it would be interesting to read about it, because that is some pretty bold claims you are making.

 

[neverdie]

Any official info on this?

https://www.mintpressnews.com/bellingcat-intelligence-agencies-launders-talking-points-media/276603/
https://thegrayzone.com/2021/10/09/bellingcat-intelligence-contractors-extremists-syria/

editorial line for each of the above is typically anti-imperialism and sometimes outright provocative for the sake of clicks. but from time to time they do manage a worthwhile investigative expose. the bellingcat story to me seems minor but they do a good job of clarifying its status and receipt of funds from various states. anyway that's your trigger warning as most won't want to spend too much time on either of these sites as one is very anti-us which takes the form of anti-ukraine and that i don't condone.

 

[Sir Matt]

Any official info on this?

Source: the Russians, Syrians, and any other target of Bellingcat's work.

 

[neverdie]

Source: the Russians, Syrians, and any other target of Bellingcat's work.

source is bellingcat's own financial documents.

or consider that amnesty has been accused of being pro-russian. if it had financial ties to russian state intel and was staffed in part by former russian intel officers, you might make that case very concretely. that's the situation bellingcat finds itself in. doesn't detract from the accuracy of their work but it does mean they are not some independent outfit run by amatuer sleuths with no editorial bias.

 

[Raoul]

Source: the Russians, Syrians, and any other target of Bellingcat's work.

And the useful idiot stooge outlets who parrot Putin's narrative by attacking the west.

 

[Raoul]

bellingcat is basically a state funded outfit. not sure how good they are or aren't but they've been provided with support by the us and uk in particular. they aren't independent basically which might explain why they have a decent arsenal of intel tools that surpass most open intel outfits.

It was started by a kickstarter campaign (aka it was crowdsourced) and has received grants by a range of organizations across the EU, such as the Open Society Foundation and similar groups.

 

[neverdie]

It was started by a kickstarter campaign (aka it was crowdsourced) and has received grants by a range of organizations across the EU, such as the Open Society Foundation and similar groups.

including the national endowment for democracy iirc which is a cia cutout. the two above articles lay it out pretty conclusively.

 

[Raoul]

including the national endowment for democracy iirc which is a cia cutout. the two above articles lay it out pretty conclusively.

Its not. Its a government organization created to promote democratic institutions in other countries, which is a good thing, unless of course you are conspiracy theorist who hates democracy.

 

[the hea]

https://www.mintpressnews.com/bellingcat-intelligence-agencies-launders-talking-points-media/276603/
https://thegrayzone.com/2021/10/09/bellingcat-intelligence-contractors-extremists-syria/

editorial line for each of the above is typically anti-imperialism and sometimes outright provocative for the sake of clicks. but from time to time they do manage a worthwhile investigative expose. the bellingcat story to me seems minor but they do a good job of clarifying its status and receipt of funds from various states. anyway that's your trigger warning as most won't want to spend too much time on either of these sites as one is very anti-us which takes the form of anti-ukraine and that i don't condone.

I read the first article and there wasn't a single piece of evidence to confirm your claims, just baseless claims about CIA links to private citizens who have worked for Bellingcat or donated to them.
Just the the same old Russian propagande, without any actual proof.

 

[nimic]

Its not. Its a government organization created to promote democratic institutions in other countries, which is a good thing, unless of course you are conspiracy theorist who hates democracy.

It's a bit more complicated than that.

 

[neverdie]

Its not. Its a government organization created to promote democratic institutions in other countries, which is a good thing, unless of course you are conspiracy theorist who hates democracy.

its formation was closely tied to the cia. that's historical record. what the cia did covertly the ned would do overtly. and spreading and promoting democracy is not usually a good thing, ask the arab world. or are they conspiracists who hate democracy?

 

[Raoul]

its formation was closely tied to the cia. that's historical record. what the cia did covertly the ned would do overtly. and spreading and promoting democracy is not usually a good thing, ask the arab world. or are they conspiracists who hate democracy?

Its not.

But apparently the fringe article you posted (which is total BS by the way) was a from an outfit called MintPress which is allied with moral paragons Russia, Iran, and Syria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MintPress_News

 

[neverdie]

I read the first article and there wasn't a single piece of evidence to confirm your claims, just baseless claims about CIA links to private citizens who have worked for Bellingcat or donated to them.
Just the the same old Russian propagande, without any actual proof.

bellingat received state contracts. many. it received indirect contracts later linked to state agencies. its founder walked back the idea that it hadn't. that's all the proof you need for what i stated, that bellingcat are not some purely independent open intel org and are in fact tied to state actors. but you can see what you want to see. as an example, we know the editorial line of the two websites above. how often do they do work critical of russia? rarely. how often does bellingcat do work critical of the us? rarely?

 

[neverdie]

Its not.

But apparently the fringe article you posted (which is total BS by the way) was a from an outfit called MintPress which is allied with moral paragons Russia, Iran, and Syria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MintPress_News

it's fringe alright but it's not bullshit. i acknowledged their bias before posting it. i know it well enough. doesn't mean they're wrong.


on the ned, which you take as conspiratorial, here is some fairly good information on the topic:


1

in zimbabwe/africa

In December 2001, the U.S. government passed its Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act, which further tightened the screws on a nation already reeling under what amounts, in essence, to a form of collective (i.e. immoral and illegal) punishment. Considering that Zimbabwe imports 100 per cent of its oil, and 40 per cent of its electrical equipment and spare parts, these sanctions and interferences have, single-handedly, destroyed or substantially hobbled the country's industrial and agricultural sectors. None of this is to say that Mugabe hasn't acted harshly to crack down on internal dissent. But one must immediately counter with the fact that Zimbabwe is very much the subject of extensive foreign subversion. Much like the so-called "colour revolutions" in Serbia, Belarus, Georgia and Ukraine -- and numerous other attempted "revolutions" across the globe -- Zimbabwe's "independent" oppositional groups have received extensive funds, equipment and organizational support from the likes of the U.S. State Department, USAID and the ubiquitous U.S.-funded National Endowment for Democracy (called essentially the "civilian" arm of the CIA). And, of course, the international media can be relied upon to conjure their usual bang-up demonization campaign. Meanwhile, we hear not a media peep about countries right next door. Such as Tanzania, where even the barest hint of a strike is met with state violence and imprisonment. Or Rwanda, where under the Western-backed Tutsi leadership, thousands are routinely "disappeared." Or Uganda, where there has not been a free election since Yoweri Museveni came to power in 1986. Then again, according to a recent update by the Oxford Research Bureau, the United States and Britain (with extensive support from Canada through its sub-imperial role in Afghanistan) are now responsible for the deaths of 1.3 million people in Iraq since 2003.

"Pariahs" and "monsters," it seems, are very much in the eye of the beholder.


Pariah or scapegoat?" Spectator.

2

general overview/cia linkage

Essentially the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) is a soft power organization that promotes the ideological values of the US while advocating for democratic progress around the world. According to the NED’s own information about its history the organization was founded on the premise that “American assistance on behalf of democracy efforts abroad would be good both for the US and for those struggling around the world for freedom and selfgovernment,” and that, by their own admission, “the model of a non-governmental organization that receives public funding to carry out democracy initiative should be considered by other countries that appreciate the benefits of participating in this significant worldwide movement” (“History | National Endowment for Democracy,” n.d.). With origins dating back to Lyndon B. Johnson’s administration, the US first started its exploration of the notion to fund democracy building objectives around the world when it was revealed that the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) was receiving funding to “wage the battle of ideas at international forums,” and so Johnson’s administration recommended the establishment of a “public-private mechanism” to fund overseas activities openly (“History | National Endowment for Democracy,” n.d.). However, it took until 1983 for the NED to be fully approved and created by an order of congress known as H.R. 2915 (“History | National Endowment for Democracy,” n.d.).

The creation of the organization was an open attempt to remedy the fact that a covert spying agency was caught using some of its funding in a manner that Congress, the Executive Branch, and the American people deemed less than admirable. So, from the shadows of a CIA program exercising its will to create governments abroad favorable to the US in the name of preserving and promoting democracy the initial discussions of having an open organization dedicated the US government’s agenda was born. The origins of the NED seem less than favorable in terms of promoting the various ideologies associated with democracy in a manner befitting the crux of its ethos. This organization, by its own admission, is not based on the
autonomy usually associated with that of NGOS. In fact, the very nature of the organization was founded on the premise to serve the will of the American government. Despite its attempts to frame itself as an autonomous organization free from the influence of the government, the NED is in fact a shell organization that funnels money through the four institutions created in its wake to further the American agenda abroad.

By posing as an NGO the NED advocates freedom in a manner to help foster other American interest, just as its CIA precursors, used democracy promotion to create governments favorable to US interests. As journalist Robert Parry (2014) suggests, the NED is a, “shadow foreign policy apparatus built by Ronald Reagan for the Cold War survives to this day as a slush fund that keeps American neocons well fed and still destabilizes target nations.” There has been massive criticism of the NED’s activities since its inception. Recently, the organization was criticized for its role in Ukraine and Venezuela. Parry (2014) studied the current undertakings of the organization and found that the policies enacted on behalf of the organization in the Ukraine and Venezuela were consistent with activities that used to be conducted by the CIA; activities such as sponsoring organizations in direct opposition to democratically elected leaders that served the political and economic interests of the US.

The National Endowment for Democracy: Theory, Context, and Practice by Albert Jesse Opraseuth B.A., Georgia State University, 2009

3
soft power/friendly dictators.

He demonstrates that congressional control over funding constrained operations to cases genuinely aimed at strengthening democracy through democratic methods, and that senior officials in the NED and the administration subordinated democracy to security interests. As a result, the NED pursued democracy promotion on a tactical basis in countries in which such a policy was believed to enhance U.S. national security. In friendly dictatorships, this meant support for elite forces who enacted surface reforms without a fundamental elimination of injustice to preserve stability.

Søndergaard, Rasmus Sinding. Review of Democracy Promotion, National Security and Strategy: Foreign Policy under the Reagan Administration, by Robert Pee. Journal of Cold War Studies, vol. 21 no. 2, 2019, p. 199-201. Project MUSE muse.jhu.edu/article/726141.

4
in haiti

NED got involved in Haiti in 1985, just before Jean-Claude (BabyDoc) duvalier fled. As with its operations in many countries, in Haiti, NED and its spin-off organizations, which share many common board members and affiliations, are interlocked with official government institutions such as the U.S. Agency for International Development (AID).

Between 1986 and 1990, NED funneled over $2.3 million in funds into Haiti.

A 1988 study commissioned by AID noted that Haiti had between 800 and 1,500 "non-governmental organizations," with U.S. funding reaching at least 400.

At a time when the democratic and popular movement was picking up steam, the study recommended more support for "the independent sector" and listed possible recipients. AID and NED each helped found institutions which later received sizable grants. One of those, the Haitian Institute for Research and Development (IHRED), played a very partisan role in the eighties and especially in the 1990 elections when it was allied with Marc L. Bazin, the U.S. government's preferred candidate, and helped him create his coalition. (Bazin later served as the second illegal prime minister of the post coup d'etat regime, overseeing rampant corruption and repression. Another NED grantee - Jean-Jacques Honorat from the Haitian Center for the Defence of Rights and Freedom (CHADEL) - served as the first illegal prime minister of the regime.)

"Subverting democracy." Multinational Monitor, vol. 15, no. 3, Mar. 1994, pp. 13+. Gale General OneFile, link.gale.com/apps/doc/A15409609

all the above are snippets. won't reproduce full length for obvious reasons. but just wanted to clarify the ned/cia link is not as you would claim, something only the conspiracy theorists will entertain.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...9a-de6e-4bb8-99b9-462c76b59a16/?noredirect=on

this article does a decent summary job:

When these covert activities surfaced (as they inevitably did), the fallout was devastating. The CIA connection, intended to protect people and organizations from public embarrassment, had precisely the opposite effect.

"A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA," agrees Weinstein. The biggest difference is that when such activities are done overtly, the flap potential is close to zero. Openness is its own protection.

 

[Raoul]

I read the first article and there wasn't a single piece of evidence to confirm your claims, just baseless claims about CIA links to private citizens who have worked for Bellingcat or donated to them.
Just the the same old Russian propagande, without any actual proof.

Its total trash. Even the links in the "article" don't resolve to what the author claims. "Spooks" and "Intelligence Companies" are neither. Its basically nonsense for easily led left wingers in search of group recognition on topics they know little about.

 

[Raoul]

it's fringe alright but it's not bullshit. i acknowledged their bias before posting it. i know it well enough. doesn't mean they're wrong.

Its about as useful as getting propaganda directly from a totalitarian country, then posting it here as if it were legit.

 

[harms]

https://www.mintpressnews.com/bellingcat-intelligence-agencies-launders-talking-points-media/276603/
https://thegrayzone.com/2021/10/09/bellingcat-intelligence-contractors-extremists-syria/

editorial line for each of the above is typically anti-imperialism and sometimes outright provocative for the sake of clicks. but from time to time they do manage a worthwhile investigative expose. the bellingcat story to me seems minor but they do a good job of clarifying its status and receipt of funds from various states. anyway that's your trigger warning as most won't want to spend too much time on either of these sites as one is very anti-us which takes the form of anti-ukraine and that i don't condone.

Going by their financial papers the "shady" part of their financing, which they aren't hiding by the way, accounts for a significantly lesser part of their annual budget.

The site is trash, they're extremely picky in terms of what information they use (that fit their narrative) and what information they don't use; they don't back a lot of their claims by any evidence. I doubt that they're paid by the Russians but they're exactly the sort of the Western media that are targeted by the Russian propaganda machine (a more complicated part of it) based on the anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist, anti-colonialism etc. agenda.

 

[neverdie]

Its about as useful as getting propaganda directly from a totalitarian country, then posting it here as if it were legit.

While vehemently insisting that it is independent of government influence, Bellingcat is funded by both the US government’s National Endowment for Democracy and the European Union. CIA officials have declared their “love” for Bellingcat, and there are unambiguous signs that the outlet has partnered closely with London and Washington to further the pair’s imperial objectives.

Now that the media consortium has obtained access to high-tech satellites capable of capturing 50cm resolution imagery of any place on Earth, it is time to place these connections under the microscope.

To explore the relationship between Bellingcat and centers of imperial power, look no further than its officially published financial accounts from 2019 to 2020. According to these records, Bellingcat has accepted enormous sums from Western intelligence contractors.

the ned promotes colour revolutions in states where it sees a strategic value in spreading democracy. it doesn't do it in saudi arabia. the rationale for its founding was that it would do overtly certain things the cia did covertly. i don't really care what ned gets up to but the idea that you dismiss bellingcat's own financial statements which demonstrates ties to defense contractors and in some cases actual states, or state bodies, like the eu and uk, because you don't like the editorial line of the people who publish the material makes no sense.

especially in a climate where people are demonizing human rights organizations for being biased and not independent despite all of them having condemned russia without hesitation and consistently.

 

[the hea]

bellingat received state contracts. many. it received indirect contracts later linked to state agencies. its founder walked back the idea that it hadn't. that's all the proof you need for what i stated, that bellingcat are not some purely independent open intel org and are in fact tied to state actors. but you can see what you want to see. as an example, we know the editorial line of the two websites above. how often do they do work critical of russia? rarely. how often does bellingcat do work critical of the us? rarely?

But just show some proof, everything you say are just baseless claimes without any proof. Same with the articles you posted.
You could try and read an article from Bellingcat. They are always very transparent how they do things, they disclouse what methods and techniques they use for their stories and always describes how they got to the conclusion they did.

 

[neverdie]

But just show some proof, everything you say are just baseless claimes without any proof. Same with the articles you posted.
You could try and read an article from Bellingcat. They are always very transparent how they do things, they disclouse what methods and techniques they use for their stories and always describes how they got to the conclusion they did.

my only claim is that they were state funded. which has been proven. i have no problem with bellingcat but they receive state funds and funds from orgs that are directly related to intel agencies. it doesn't make their stuff less reliable but you can't pretend that there isn't a relation when there clearly is.

 

[Rajma]

My god some people are just plain dumb.

 

[neverdie]

Going by their financial papers the "shady" part of their financing, which they aren't hiding by the way, accounts for a significantly lesser part of their annual budget.

The site is trash, they're extremely picky in terms of what information they use (that fit their narrative) and what information they don't use; they don't back a lot of their claims by any evidence. I doubt that they're paid by the Russians but they're exactly the sort of the Western media that are targeted by the Russian propaganda machine (a more complicated part of it) based on the anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist, anti-colonialism etc. agenda.

i don't advocate for the website. i only post the link because it demonstrates the one thing i claimed. that bellingcat receives state funds, and demonstrates it through its own financial disclosures.

 

[Frosty]

Meanwhile:

Zaporizhzhia: Real risk of nuclear disaster in Ukraine - watchdog

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62449982

The UN's nuclear watchdog has called for an immediate end to any military action near Ukraine's Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant, warning of a "very real risk of a nuclear disaster".

IAEA chief Rafael Mariano Grossi said he was "extremely concerned" by reports of shelling at Europe's largest nuclear power plant.

It comes as Ukraine said parts of the facility were "seriously damaged" by Russian military strikes.

Russia seized the plant in March.

It has kept its Ukrainian employees, but Kyiv accuses Russian forces of firing rockets at civilian areas from the site, employing "terror tactics".

Friday's strikes underline "the very real risk of a nuclear disaster that could threaten public health and the environment in Ukraine and beyond", Mr Grossi said in a statement.

"Any military firepower directed at or from the facility would amount to playing with fire, with potentially catastrophic consequences," he added.

Ukrainian staff must be able to carry out their important duties "without threats or pressure", he said, adding that the IAEA should be allowed to provide technical support.

"For the sake of protecting people in Ukraine and elsewhere from a potential nuclear accident, we must all set aside our differences and act, now. The IAEA is ready," said Mr Grossi, days after stating the plant was "completely out of control".

The operator of the Zaporizhzhia plant said the Russian missile strikes had forced the closure of one "power unit", adding that there was a risk of radioactive leaks.

The strikes "caused a serious risk for the safe operation of the plant", operator Enerhoatom wrote on Telegram.

Moscow said Ukraine carried out the attack.

 

[TMDaines]

My god some people are just plain dumb.

Been a while since I had to add anyone to the ignore list, but I would have added him if I could.

 

[Frosty]

 

[Simbo]

 

[Frosty]

 

[Cheimoon]

Please read the above tweet that summarizes everything perfectly. I don’t have time to explain obvious things.

I'm not going to explain either, then, but I'll just say that the tweets show that Amnesty's report is exaggerated but not entirely wrong. And also that, after Amnesty has criticized Russia time and again during this war (and again when publishing this report), it's flat-out crazy that this one report leads you to the conclusion that Amnesty is in Russia's pocket and is contributing to a genocide.

 

[Raoul]

 

[Rajma]

I'm not going to explain either, then, but I'll just say that the tweets show that Amnesty's report is exaggerated but not entirely wrong. And also that, after Amnesty has criticized Russia time and again during this war (and again when publishing this report), it's flat-out crazy that this one report leads you to the conclusion that Amnesty is in Russia's pocket and is contributing to a genocide.

By giving a helping hand to Russian propaganda during the actual war is quite clear contribution to the genocide? This attempt at false equivalence when it comes to the civilian victims is just morally wrong on every level all it does it helps Russia to create an illusion that both sides are to blame and many peoples will for it = less support in the west in terms or donations or military assistance. I mean Russian embassy in uk that publicly called for execution of Ukrainian POWs just a few days ago now shares the report proudly and that’s all you need to know about the state of it and who it was meant to serve.

 

[Gehrman]

Roger waters having a mare here.

 

[FireballXL5]

Would Russia have attacked Ukraine if it had been in NATO, Roger?

 

[Gehrman]

Would Russia have attacked Ukraine if it had been in NATO, Roger?

Waters also kind of failed to mention that Russia made a pledge to give Ukraine assistance in case they were attacked as part of the nuclear disarment treaty. Anyway I love Waters as a artist and he's probably a nice bloke, but celebrities are shit at politics.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-f...ato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

 

[Frosty]

 

[Frosty]

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Gehrman]

 

[Cheimoon]

By giving a helping hand to Russian propaganda during the actual war is quite clear contribution to the genocide? This attempt at false equivalence when it comes to the civilian victims is just morally wrong on every level all it does it helps Russia to create an illusion that both sides are to blame and many peoples will for it = less support in the west in terms or donations or military assistance. I mean Russian embassy in uk that publicly called for execution of Ukrainian POWs just a few days ago now shares the report proudly and that’s all you need to know about the state of it and who it was meant to serve.

I will just always disagree with that sense. You're calling for self-censoring, for the suppression of anything negative about Ukraine. And even more, you're suggesting that anyone who isn't doing that is intending to help Russia (as your last sentence says). I find that attitude (which is not just you, obviously; many people on here seem to think the same) deeply troubling. Orwellian.