Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Rektsanwalt said:
you mean a devoted russian and pro-putin nationalist, who realizes the war can not be won and then fails at assassinating Putin?
I hope not
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Well a more successfull Stauffenberg I should have said ;)
(I don't think that the probable outcome of the war was the main motivation for Stauffenberg.)

I read a tweet on Twitter that there are supposedly even many high officials, politicians and militaries in russia that are surprised about what happens now. Putins determination and lunacy seem to not only suprise the western governments. So I wouldn't rule out that there are some former Putin supporters that might turn their back, especially if the protests in Russia grow.

Do you think thats possible?
 
Ali Dia said:
I don’t think so. Any Occupation will just breed “terrorism” and a long sporadic fight. I have a feeling this is still just some kind of crazy flex by Russia and they’ll pull out after threatening everyone and showing how strong and relevant they still are for a few months.
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Funny thing is they are so far showing the opposite.
 
sun_tzu said:
We should offer them both immediate nato membership... but we wont
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Neither Sweden nor Finland have ever applied for NATO membership and officially pursue a neutral politic, despite that both, especially Sweden is quite a lot NATO. However, I think the Ukraine thing has changed their minds, I am interested to see an opinion poll there (last one in Finland, only 20% something of people were pro joining NATO).
 
11101 said:
Putin doesn't want Russia to directly border Nato countries. He wants countries in between as a buffer but he wants them to be pro-Russian instead of pro-Nato. He's got that with Belarus and Georgia whilst Finland stays neutral. Ukraine was the only one actively pursuing membership. I think his goal in Ukraine is to install a more Russia-friendly government that will drop plans to join Nato then the troops will withdraw.

He can tolerate Estonia and Latvia because its a single front and it's too late, they're already in. If Ukraine joined, it would give Nato two fronts to attack from.
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What if the Ukrainian population doesn't accept a Russia-friendly government and we'll have another revolution? I'm really curious what Russia's long-term exit strategy is here.
 
So we can add Sweden and Finland to the list of things threatened with nukes by Putin.

nuclear war is his only card, and he is overplaying it. Nuclear war is just as costly for Russia as it is the West. The more he bandies the phrase about, the less inclined I am to believe it. Unless western troops are marching on Moscow, there is no way he is enacting MAD.

The amount of nonsense rhetoric and hate he is spewing is further proof that the man is not to be believed.

The west need to be stronger and braver and stand up to this bully. Yes, our lives will be harder and gas prices will go up, but that’s a small price to pay for what is at stake here. Failing that we may as well all submit to becoming Russian vassal states right now.
 
BBC.

“Putin tells Ukraine military to 'take power into your own hands’

Here's more from Vladimir Putin, who is addressing the Russian Security Council - and, indirectly, the Ukrainian military.
He says Banderites - a reference to World War Two anti-Soviet fighter Stepan Bandera - and so-called neo-Nazis "have put up heavy armaments including multiple rocket launch systems" in cities, including Kyiv and Kharkiv.
"Neo-Nazis" is a regularly used by President Putin to deride the Ukrainian government. Ukraine's President Zelensky, who is Jewish, has dismissed the term.

Putin says: "They are acting like terrorists across the world, shielding behind people in order to accuse Russia of causing casualties among the peaceful population.
"It is known for sure that all this is happening on recommendations from foreign consultants, American advisers above all."
He then addresses Ukrainian forces.
"I am addressing Ukrainian armed forces servicemen once again: do not allow neo-Nazis and Banderites to use your children, your wives and the elderly as a human shield.
"Take power into your own hands. It looks like you and us will find it easier to reach an agreement than with that gang of drug addicts and neo-Nazis in Kyiv."

Fecking tool. He makes the baddies in James Bond films look sane.
 
Revan said:
Neither Sweden nor Finland have ever applied for NATO membership and officially pursue a neutral politic, despite that both, especially Sweden is quite a lot NATO. However, I think the Ukraine thing has changed their minds, I am interested to see an opinion poll there (last one in Finland, only 20% something of people were pro joining NATO).
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They are now also both being included in NATO calls.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
And I will also add a demand that anyone pedalling Russian propaganda here shall be issued a permaban as well.
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Knowing what everyone is saying is crucial, if you ban what Putin supporters say and believe, we end up in an echo chamber. Repeating officials and sharing what their saying is hardly pedalling propaganda.

Though Putin is clearly the aggressor here, I’m not sure that all western governments are telling us the truth either.
 
Revan said:
Neither Sweden nor Finland have ever applied for NATO membership and officially pursue a neutral politic, despite that both, especially Sweden is quite a lot NATO. However, I think the Ukraine thing has changed their minds, I am interested to see an opinion poll there (last one in Finland, only 20% something of people were pro joining NATO).
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Indeed.



Risky move with Russia threatening millitary consequences, though perhaps now is the time to do so with Russia occupied in Ukraine.
 
The Boy said:
Knowing what everyone is saying is crucial, if you ban what Putin supporters say and believe, we end up in an echo chamber. Repeating officials and sharing what their saying is hardly pedalling propaganda.
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Russian officials deserve no spotlight whatsoever from the moment their boss called a Jewish president of a sovereign country a provider of safe haven to Nazis when that president himself had a chunk of his family decimated by actual Nazis.
 
There are zero scenarios where Putin attacks Finland but doesn't attack Baltics. Zero.
 
11101 said:
Putin doesn't want Russia to directly border Nato countries. He wants countries in between as a buffer but he wants them to be pro-Russian instead of pro-Nato. He's got that with Belarus and Georgia whilst Finland stays neutral. Ukraine was the only one actively pursuing membership. I think his goal in Ukraine is to install a more Russia-friendly government that will drop plans to join Nato then the troops will withdraw.

He can tolerate Estonia and Latvia because its a single front and it's too late, they're already in. If Ukraine joined, it would give Nato two fronts to attack from.
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Exactly right.
I tried to make this same point earlier but some people simply fail to grasp an understanding of the situation.
 


Not sure if posted yet, but this is sickening to read. Obligated entry into the army is madness imo.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Even Putin can’t spin a Jewish Nazi, it’s crazy the levels to which he has stooped to justify the unjustifiable.
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some orwellian shit over there , no wonder they are getting insane, its hard for a brain to keep up with all the multispeak
 
11101 said:
Putin doesn't want Russia to directly border Nato countries. He wants countries in between as a buffer but he wants them to be pro-Russian instead of pro-Nato. He's got that with Belarus and Georgia whilst Finland stays neutral. Ukraine was the only one actively pursuing membership. I think his goal in Ukraine is to install a more Russia-friendly government that will drop plans to join Nato then the troops will withdraw.

He can tolerate Estonia and Latvia because its a single front and it's too late, they're already in. If Ukraine joined, it would give Nato two fronts to attack from.
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I know that's the official reasoning, but personally I think this is all muscle flexing from someone who's losing it. No one could believe that NATO would ever, ever invade Russia. For me, it's all about pride and showing the world how big and strong Russia still is. I'm surprised he hasn't been pictured riding into battle topless on his horse yet.
 
stevoc said:
Wouldn't that move have basically played into Putin's rants about NATO being an Anti-Russian organization with designs on expansion towards Russia though?

I don't see how the major NATO members justify putting boots on the ground in a non NATO country when the organization is held up as a defensive alliance, not to mention the risk that Russia attacks anyway and it spirals out of control very quickly into a global conflict and destabilizing the entire region. As shit as this entire situation is I think NATO powers are doing the responsible thing for world peace in general by only using economic sanctions against Russia and supplying weapons to Ukraine without getting involved directly.
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This is a very valid point. The best answers I have is that these things are not binary. There was no NATO that caused WW1 or 2. We are talking about a democratic country who peacefully disarmed their nuclear deterrent in exchange for guarantees of security from UK, US and Russia. I can’t say I am an expert, but do those guarantees not still stand? We are talking about a country who aspired - and even wrote into their constitution - to join NATO.

The only difference between the current situation and Hitler is that the latter didn’t have nukes. It’s unfortunate that we live in a world where mutually assured destruction is a possibility, but it is. The question is, is Putin really prepared to destroy the world (since I’m damn sure they would be the ones to make the first strike if it happened)? And would the Russian people and military let him? Until troops are marching on Moscow, I can’t see it happening. As long as NATO was clear about retaking Ukraine (and maybe Belarus while we are there), there is no reason to escalate.

My other idea was to enact a no-fly zone over Ukraine. Putin publicly claims that this is a special military operation, focused on the Donbas. With that in mind, a no-fly zone over the rest of Ukraine (ie Kyiv) should not interfere with his plans. Ukraine has the right to request their airspace be protected.
In practice, this would either mean Putin ceding that this is a full invasion, or sacrificing air operations - which would give the Ukrainians a much better fighting chance, if nothing else.

Alternately, tell Ukraine to sacrifice the Donbas and Crimea region in exchange for immediate NATO membership. If this conflict is about Donbas (which publicly, it is, according to Russia) then the conflict is over and you get Ukraine into NATO immediately. Again, is Putin going to start throwing nukes around for the sake of Western Ukraine? Not convinced.
 
VorZakone said:
What if the Ukrainian population doesn't accept a Russia-friendly government and we'll have another revolution? I'm really curious what Russia's long-term exit strategy is here.
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Simple. They don't have one.
 
harms said:
To be fair renouncing DNR & LNR’s independence just after announcing it would be a move that even Russian propaganda would fail to explain. Probably.
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We've always been at war with Eurasia.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Russian officials deserve no spotlight whatsoever from the moment their boss called a Jewish president of a sovereign country a provider of safe haven to Nazis when that president himself had a chunk of his family decimated by actual Nazis.
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As one who posted two tweets from Russian officials, I would feel very, very unfairly treated if I was permabanned (or even threadbanned) for that. Delete the tweets if it's deemed necessary, sure, but come on. The sheer lunacy of the tweets deserved a place in this thread to be discussed and provide context, and is no different from providing the exact same quotes in a BBC article.

Actually, I think you fail to grasp the difference between posting propaganda, and sharing direct and relevant information for context in a thread about an ongoing war. Actually reading what the officials say about this war, may help understand what is actually going on. Posting these things is not the same as condoning or agreeing, and they're not from any dubious sources. This is (by extension) Putins own words. If we can't post that, we might as well close this thread entierly.

This is just a very bad take, imho.
 
Walrus said:
This is a very valid point. The best answers I have is that these things are not binary. There was no NATO that caused WW1 or 2. We are talking about a democratic country who peacefully disarmed their nuclear deterrent in exchange for guarantees of security from UK, US and Russia. I can’t say I am an expert, but do those guarantees not still stand? We are talking about a country who aspired - and even wrote into their constitution - to join NATO.

The only difference between the current situation and Hitler is that the latter didn’t have nukes. It’s unfortunate that we live in a world where mutually assured destruction is a possibility, but it is. The question is, is Putin really prepared to destroy the world (since I’m damn sure they would be the ones to make the first strike if it happened)? And would the Russian people and military let him? Until troops are marching on Moscow, I can’t see it happening. As long as NATO was clear about retaking Ukraine (and maybe Belarus while we are there), there is no reason to escalate.

My other idea was to enact a no-fly zone over Ukraine. Putin publicly claims that this is a special military operation, focused on the Donbas. With that in mind, a no-fly zone over the rest of Ukraine (ie Kyiv) should not interfere with his plans. Ukraine has the right to request their airspace be protected.
In practice, this would either mean Putin ceding that this is a full invasion, or sacrificing air operations - which would give the Ukrainians a much better fighting chance, if nothing else.
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I would say that it is fortunate that we live in a world with MAD.
And who would enforce the no fly zone.
First time you engage and shoot down a Russian jet, what is their response going to be.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Russian officials deserve no spotlight whatsoever from the moment their boss called a Jewish president of a sovereign country a provider of safe haven to Nazis when that president himself had a chunk of his family decimated by actual Nazis.
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no one is asking for the spotlight to be put on them or for them to be praised etc.

I’m just saying that it’s ridiculous to demand people are banned for repeating what Russian officials say in a thread all about what Russia is doing.

I think people here are clever enough to know that the President of Ukraine is not a neo nazi or a drug addict regardless of what Putin says.
 
VorZakone said:
What if the Ukrainian population doesn't accept a Russia-friendly government and we'll have another revolution? I'm really curious what Russia's long-term exit strategy is here.
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According to Michael Weiss, the best case scenario for them would be to capture Kyiv and then force a de facto dichotomization of the country. Hope this isn't the case and his sources are wrong. If it's true, sadly, the worst is yet to come.
 
Skåre Willoch said:
As one who posted two tweets from Russian officials, I would feel very, very unfairly treated if I was permabanned (or even threadbanned) for that. Delete the tweets if it's deemed necessary, sure, but come on. The sheer lunacy of the tweets deserved a place in this thread to be discussed and provide context, and is no different from providing the exact same quotes in a BBC article.

Actually, I think you fail to grasp the difference between posting propaganda, and sharing direct and relevant information for context in a thread about an ongoing war. Actually reading what the officials say about this war, may help understand what is actually going on. Posting these things is not the same as condoning or agreeing, and they're not from any dubious sources. This is (by extension) Putins own words. If we can't post that, we might as well close this thread entierly.

This is just a very bad take, imho.
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Yes for context its also worth remembering that the propaganda is all the majority of russians are seeing and therefore its pretty important as contextualisation as to how putins actions will be viewed in russia - which again is pretty key to understanding who viable a prolonged war / occupation will be politically for him and how people may or may not perceive nato and sanctions imposed.
 
Zen86 said:
I know that's the official reasoning, but personally I think this is all muscle flexing from someone who's losing it. No one could believe that NATO would ever, ever invade Russia. For me, it's all about pride and showing the world how big and strong Russia still is. I'm surprised he hasn't been pictured riding into battle topless on his horse yet.
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That's not what it's for but it is an organisation designed to counter Russia, and Putin does have a point that Nato has expanded Eastwards since its inception. This war is his version only he's using tanks instead of a membership agreement.
 
Buster15 said:
I would say that it is fortunate that we live in a world with MAD.
And who would enforce the no fly zone.
First time you engage and shoot down a Russian jet, what is their response going to be.
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I don’t know what the response will be, but I don’t think it will be pushing the big red button and endings humanity.
 
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