Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[TheReligion]

Agree with that

So they should both stay out of it. then what?

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Unpopular opinion, but I don't think there's any good guys here. It's criminals fighting criminals, and the common citizens paying a price for it. Putin doesn't have the 'western' luxury of social media and news organizations whitewashing his crimes globally, so it's easier to make him the only villain (he is, not questioning that at all). But the US and UK coming in with their holier than thou bullshit and using other countries to fight their proxy wars is a story we've heard all too often. London clearly encourages Russian corruption, and the US and UK have no right to speak about a superpower invading other countries. 'Spreading the seeds of democracy' and 'civilizing territorites' are just more palatable lies than de-Nazifying a nation. In India, we are yet to celebrate our 75th Independence Day - people seem to forget we had to fight our own wars, and lose many lives to force our English colonizers away to achieve the very goals they posture about championing today. Of all pseudo participants in this war, Germany, now sitting pretty atop a European hierarchy, should best remember what happens when you suffocate a proud animal of space, humiliate it on a global stage and back into a corner with only one way out.

I am shocked at the horrors unfolding in Ukraine - it is unprovoked war on civilians. I am by no means condoning Putin's actions - he is committing war crimes and should be punished, and his retaliation to Western isolation could and should have been diplomatic. I also believe democracy is the least of all evils, so will begrudgingly, but always, choose sides that fight for it. But it cannot be denied that the West forced wounded Putin and mowed him into a corner so they could wave their big dick around, and turned blind eye when Russian interference and corrpution suited their domestic interests while Putin gathered power in retaliation. History repeats itself, the roles merely change.

I hope Russia withdraws their troops. I hope Putin sees sense in his losses and takes the diplomatic route, maybe via Ukraine accepting neutrality and a couple of other conditions, so his economy can recover from the mess. I also hope that NATO stops expanding, Germany reveres its decision to strengthen its military, and China doesn't use this incident as a blueprint for Taiwan. Above all, I hope Ukranians can go back home and stop being pawns on a chessboard they could not influence, and stop living through a war that they did not deserve.

If “whataboutism” posts were deleted and the posters thread banned, this thread would be much much better and stay relevant on what is a very serious CURRENT topic.

 

[altodevil]

Sex tourist has another video up

 

[TMDaines]

I take it the people of Donbas who are fighting Ukraine for independence don't count?

They are, of course, clearly representative of the majority living in the Donbas in 2014, and not at all significantly comprised of insurgents from over the border.

 

[Phil]

indeed unpopular, what a load of shit

Well put

 

[TheReligion]

If “whataboutism” posts were deleted and the posters thread banned, this thread would be much much better and stay relevant on what is a very serious CURRENT topic.

Agreed

 

[Rektsanwalt]

Regarding all of the tu quoque bullshit going around in this thread, I have a simple question with a rather simplified version of what I'm thinking atm and can't really elaborate with my COVID-19 rotten brain:

the guy that hits his wife at home, but intervenes in a public space when someone else is hitting a woman for no reason, is he wrong when stopping the attacker?

 

[Water Melon]

Unpopular opinion, but I don't think there's any good guys here. It's criminals fighting criminals, and the common citizens paying a price for it. Putin doesn't have the 'western' luxury of social media and news organizations whitewashing his crimes globally, so it's easier to make him the only villain (he is, not questioning that at all). But the US and UK coming in with their holier than thou bullshit and using other countries to fight their proxy wars is a story we've heard all too often. London clearly encourages Russian corruption, and the US and UK have no right to speak about a superpower invading other countries. 'Spreading the seeds of democracy' and 'civilizing territorites' are just more palatable lies than de-Nazifying a nation. In India, we are yet to celebrate our 75th Independence Day - people seem to forget we had to fight our own wars, and lose many lives to force our English colonizers away to achieve the very goals they posture about championing today. Of all pseudo participants in this war, Germany, now sitting pretty atop a European hierarchy, should best remember what happens when you suffocate a proud animal of space, humiliate it on a global stage and back into a corner with only one way out.

I am shocked at the horrors unfolding in Ukraine - it is unprovoked war on civilians. I am by no means condoning Putin's actions - he is committing war crimes and should be punished, and his retaliation to Western isolation could and should have been diplomatic. I also believe democracy is the least of all evils, so will begrudgingly, but always, choose sides that fight for it. But it cannot be denied that the West forced wounded Putin and mowed him into a corner so they could wave their big dick around, and turned blind eye when Russian interference and corrpution suited their domestic interests while Putin gathered power in retaliation. History repeats itself, the roles merely change.

I hope Russia withdraws their troops. I hope Putin sees sense in his losses and takes the diplomatic route, maybe via Ukraine accepting neutrality and a couple of other conditions, so his economy can recover from the mess. I also hope that NATO stops expanding, Germany reveres its decision to strengthen its military, and China doesn't use this incident as a blueprint for Taiwan. Above all, I hope Ukranians can go back home and stop being pawns on a chessboard they could not influence, and stop living through a war that they did not deserve.

I am sure that a significant of posters here are fairly rational and they do acknowlegde that US and their allies committed lots of crimes. I am one of these posters too. However, I fully support US/EU/NATO's stance in this war. For me they are doing what is right.

 

[MTF]

South Carolina tried that once. We were still the bad guys.

Haha, indeed best answer.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Unpopular opinion, but I don't think there's any good guys here. It's criminals fighting criminals, and the common citizens paying a price for it. Putin doesn't have the 'western' luxury of social media and news organizations whitewashing his crimes globally, so it's easier to make him the only villain (he is, not questioning that at all). But the US and UK coming in with their holier than thou bullshit and using other countries to fight their proxy wars is a story we've heard all too often. London clearly encourages Russian corruption, and the US and UK have no right to speak about a superpower invading other countries. 'Spreading the seeds of democracy' and 'civilizing territorites' are just more palatable lies than de-Nazifying a nation. In India, we are yet to celebrate our 75th Independence Day - people seem to forget we had to fight our own wars, and lose many lives to force our English colonizers away to achieve the very goals they posture about championing today. Of all pseudo participants in this war, Germany, now sitting pretty atop a European hierarchy, should best remember what happens when you suffocate a proud animal of space, humiliate it on a global stage and back into a corner with only one way out.

I am shocked at the horrors unfolding in Ukraine - it is unprovoked war on civilians. I am by no means condoning Putin's actions - he is committing war crimes and should be punished, and his retaliation to Western isolation could and should have been diplomatic. I also believe democracy is the least of all evils, so will begrudgingly, but always, choose sides that fight for it. But it cannot be denied that the West forced wounded Putin and mowed him into a corner so they could wave their big dick around, and turned blind eye when Russian interference and corrpution suited their domestic interests while Putin gathered power in retaliation. History repeats itself, the roles merely change.

I hope Russia withdraws their troops. I hope Putin sees sense in his losses and takes the diplomatic route, maybe via Ukraine accepting neutrality and a couple of other conditions, so his economy can recover from the mess. I also hope that NATO stops expanding, Germany reveres its decision to strengthen its military, and China doesn't use this incident as a blueprint for Taiwan. Above all, I hope Ukranians can go back home and stop being pawns on a chessboard they could not influence, and stop living through a war that they did not deserve.

Good post. Although I don't agree with a lot of it, (especially the part that asks Ukraine to give up it's right to self-determination to appease Putin), it is a well argued point of view.

 

[Pintu]

The issue you have here is if the UK and US don’t come out and tackle this who else will?

You can look at the hypocrisy and that’s for another thread but ultimately without the UK and the US this is a complete and utter cake walk for Russia.

You have to protect the sheep from the wolf and it takes a wolf to catch a wolf.

Exactly this. It takes a wolf to catch a wolf.

And I certainly don't feel ashamed of supporting the US/UK intervention on behalf of Ukraine. It doesn't mean I consider them "good guys" or that I support their disgraceful role in Yemen. It means that in this battle they are doing the right thing. And that's enough to fully support them here.

 

[led_scholes]

Neither do I, with Putin in charge. He needs to go, and then Ukrainians have a decision to make - take it back by force, or hope next guy will lift the lid in the country for what's been going on last decade and give it back to them, as I think just gifting it back to them will make whoever's next, hugely unpopular.

Why they should take Crimea back? Especially with force. The population wanted to leave Ukraine and join Russia. Do you also support Serbia taking by force Kossovo?

 

[Water Melon]

Any actual quotes from the talks?

 

[golden_blunder]

Russia blaming Truss for having to increase nuclear alert (which of course the BBC uses as a clickbait headline )

Misinformation and now a bit of ‘divide and conquer’ tactics (while ignoring all the shit they do). How do Russia think such outdated shit tactics work in modern day?

…. Mr Peskov said: "Statements were made by various representatives at various levels on possible altercations or even collisions and clashes between Nato and Russia.
"We believe that such statements are absolutely unacceptable. I would not call the authors of these statements by name, although it was the British foreign minister."



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60558048

And there was me joking a couple of days ago that the U.K. started it by sending Liz Truss

 

[nimic]

Russia blaming Truss for having to increase nuclear alert (which of course the BBC uses as a clickbait headline )

Misinformation and now a bit of ‘divide and conquer’ tactics (while ignoring all the shit they do). How do Russia think such outdated shit tactics work in modern day?

…. Mr Peskov said: "Statements were made by various representatives at various levels on possible altercations or even collisions and clashes between Nato and Russia.
"We believe that such statements are absolutely unacceptable. I would not call the authors of these statements by name, although it was the British foreign minister."



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60558048

How is it clickbait, when it seems to be exactly what he said?

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

The issue you have here is if the UK and US don’t come out and tackle this who else will?

You can look at the hypocrisy and that’s for another thread but ultimately without the UK and the US this is a complete and utter cake walk for Russia.

You have to protect the sheep from the wolf and it takes a wolf to catch a wolf.

I agree that it takes a wolf to catch a wolf. And Putin definitely needs to be countered, sanctioned, pushed out of power. All I'm disappointed by is how quickly we forget that the wolf fighting the cause we believe in now is also, well, a fecking wolf who has preyed and will prey on the same sheep at another time.

Again, I firmly believe that Putin needs to be stopped right now - a message that the outraged reactions will no doubt ignore. That the priority right now is to de-escalate, to save lives and avoid further humanitarian crisis in Ukraine. But the tragedy of Ukraine should NOT be a means to provide the 'good wolves' with more geo-political power. Neutrality is the best and only way forward for the 'sheep'.

 

[the_cliff]

Regarding all of the tu quoque bullshit going around in this thread, I have a simple question with a rather simplified version of what I'm thinking atm and can't really elaborate with my COVID-19 rotten brain:

the guy that hits his wife at home, but intervenes in a public space when someone else is hitting a woman for no reason, is he wrong when stopping the attacker?

Except unfortunately it's not that simple.
The guy that hits his wife at home isn't the one at personal risk for stopping the attacker. He's more on the side lines shouting words of support to the much weaker nice guy who is at risk for stopping the attacker and is likely going to get beaten up because of it.

 

[TMDaines]

Good post. Although I don't agree with a lot of it, (especially the part that asks Ukraine to give up it's right to self-determination to appease Putin), it is a well argued point of view.

“Criminals fighting criminals”

At least we know Ukrainians can still be the target of casual racism.

 

[WeePat]

What happens with the criminals who are sat in prison when a nation is under attack like this? Must be terrifying to be confined to a building unable to flee in the face of the threat of destruction?

 

[Rightnr]

Unpopular opinion, but I don't think there's any good guys here. It's criminals fighting criminals, and the common citizens paying a price for it. Putin doesn't have the 'western' luxury of social media and news organizations whitewashing his crimes globally, so it's easier to make him the only villain (he is, not questioning that at all). But the US and UK coming in with their holier than thou bullshit and using other countries to fight their proxy wars is a story we've heard all too often. London clearly encourages Russian corruption, and the US and UK have no right to speak about a superpower invading other countries. 'Spreading the seeds of democracy' and 'civilizing territorites' are just more palatable lies than de-Nazifying a nation. In India, we are yet to celebrate our 75th Independence Day - people seem to forget we had to fight our own wars, and lose many lives to force our English colonizers away to achieve the very goals they posture about championing today. Of all pseudo participants in this war, Germany, now sitting pretty atop a European hierarchy, should best remember what happens when you suffocate a proud animal of space, humiliate it on a global stage and back into a corner with only one way out.

I am shocked at the horrors unfolding in Ukraine - it is unprovoked war on civilians. I am by no means condoning Putin's actions - he is committing war crimes and should be punished, and his retaliation to Western isolation could and should have been diplomatic. I also believe democracy is the least of all evils, so will begrudgingly, but always, choose sides that fight for it. But it cannot be denied that the West forced wounded Putin and mowed him into a corner so they could wave their big dick around, and turned blind eye when Russian interference and corrpution suited their domestic interests while Putin gathered power in retaliation. History repeats itself, the roles merely change.

I hope Russia withdraws their troops. I hope Putin sees sense in his losses and takes the diplomatic route, maybe via Ukraine accepting neutrality and a couple of other conditions, so his economy can recover from the mess. I also hope that NATO stops expanding, Germany reveres its decision to strengthen its military, and China doesn't use this incident as a blueprint for Taiwan. Above all, I hope Ukranians can go back home and stop being pawns on a chessboard they could not influence, and stop living through a war that they did not deserve.

If Jeremy Corbyn were a poster on the Caf...

 

[Smores]

Exactly this. It takes a wolf to catch a wolf.

And I certainly don't feel ashamed of supporting the US/UK intervention on behalf of Ukraine. It doesn't mean I consider them "good guys" or that I support their disgraceful role in Yemen. It means that in this battle they are doing the right thing. And that's enough to fully support them here.

Hopefully after this war comes to it's peaceful resolution there's some self reflection on this and roles in other ongoing human tragedies.

That would be the best time to argue these things but I'm sure it would be a very quiet thread in truth.

The calls of censorship in this thread are a bit much though. One post every 5 pages steers off topic and it's the same posters who then escalate it beyond that page each time with the same opinions posted.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Unpopular opinion, but I don't think there's any good guys here. It's criminals fighting criminals, and the common citizens paying a price for it. Putin doesn't have the 'western' luxury of social media and news organizations whitewashing his crimes globally, so it's easier to make him the only villain (he is, not questioning that at all). But the US and UK coming in with their holier than thou bullshit and using other countries to fight their proxy wars is a story we've heard all too often. London clearly encourages Russian corruption, and the US and UK have no right to speak about a superpower invading other countries. 'Spreading the seeds of democracy' and 'civilizing territorites' are just more palatable lies than de-Nazifying a nation. In India, we are yet to celebrate our 75th Independence Day - people seem to forget we had to fight our own wars, and lose many lives to force our English colonizers away to achieve the very goals they posture about championing today. Of all pseudo participants in this war, Germany, now sitting pretty atop a European hierarchy, should best remember what happens when you suffocate a proud animal of space, humiliate it on a global stage and back into a corner with only one way out.

I am shocked at the horrors unfolding in Ukraine - it is unprovoked war on civilians. I am by no means condoning Putin's actions - he is committing war crimes and should be punished, and his retaliation to Western isolation could and should have been diplomatic. I also believe democracy is the least of all evils, so will begrudgingly, but always, choose sides that fight for it. But it cannot be denied that the West forced wounded Putin and mowed him into a corner so they could wave their big dick around, and turned blind eye when Russian interference and corrpution suited their domestic interests while Putin gathered power in retaliation. History repeats itself, the roles merely change.

I hope Russia withdraws their troops. I hope Putin sees sense in his losses and takes the diplomatic route, maybe via Ukraine accepting neutrality and a couple of other conditions, so his economy can recover from the mess. I also hope that NATO stops expanding, Germany reveres its decision to strengthen its military, and China doesn't use this incident as a blueprint for Taiwan. Above all, I hope Ukranians can go back home and stop being pawns on a chessboard they could not influence, and stop living through a war that they did not deserve.

Good post.

 

[TMDaines]

Oh, and if anyone thought these actions were going to swing Russian-speaking and -looking people further towards Russia, you probably need to reassess.






I only wish my wife’s grandad hadn’t already lost his marbles, so we could see how he – a completely dyed-in-the-wool Soviet communist, now Russian-speaking Ukrainian – would be having his worldview shifted.

Edit: typo

 

[golden_blunder]

You are right, this is going to be unpopular opinion.

It's Russia invading an independent, sovereign country whose citizens just wanted to live their regular life. There absolutely are bad and good guys here.

I've had enough of the 'there are two sides to each story' bullshit for today.

What US and UK did or did not do is irrelevant here. Ukraine want to be part of Europe and have every right to it.

Correct

 

[Rightnr]

Careful, you're about to be attacked by people who have been whitewashed by said social media and propaganda tools.

Dear, oh, dear.

 

[Smithy89]

Oh, and if anyone thought these actions were going to swing Russian-speaking and -looking people further towards Russia, you probably need to reassess.





I only wish my wife’s grandad hadn’t already lost his marbles, so we could see how he – a completely dyed-in-the-wool Soviet communist, now Russian-speaking Ukrainian – would his worldview shifted.

Maybe some of these will help stop the anti west/pro russia comments that keep popping up in here.

 

[Jippy]

The issue you have here is if the UK and US don’t come out and tackle this who else will?

You can look at the hypocrisy and that’s for another thread but ultimately without the UK and the US this is a complete and utter cake walk for Russia.

You have to protect the sheep from the wolf and it takes a wolf to catch a wolf.

We need Liz Truss to adopt the mindset of a wolf.

 

[shamans]

Exactly this. It takes a wolf to catch a wolf.

And I certainly don't feel ashamed of supporting the US/UK intervention on behalf of Ukraine. It doesn't mean I consider them "good guys" or that I support their disgraceful role in Yemen. It means that in this battle they are doing the right thing. And that's enough to fully support them here.

By this logic, it could be easy for Russians to justify their actions?

US/UK powers slowly spreading their sphere of influence, bringing Ukraine into NATO, parking missiles right outside of Russia. Russia does not have the influence of countries in Europe or US. They have the military might though, so they will exercise that.

It doesn't make it right. Just trying to give a better picture

 

[Rightnr]

Good post.

I will quote every one of you wannabe communists and ask you to explain yourselves or go away.

Some of you wannabe diplomats would have Ukraine partitioned to satisfy Putler. If that's diplomacy for you, go and live in Mother Russia.

 

[TMDaines]

 

[lefty_jakobz]

I will quote every one of you wannabe communists and ask you to explain yourselves or go away.

Some of you wannabe diplomats would have Ukraine partitioned to satisfy Putler. If that's diplomacy for you, go and live in Mother Russia.

Wana be communists? Hahaha! who the fk even are you?

 

[Smores]

I will quote every one of you wannabe communists and ask you to explain yourselves or go away.

Some of you wannabe diplomats would have Ukraine partitioned to satisfy Putler. If that's diplomacy for you, go and live in Mother Russia.

Grow up.

 

[shamans]

You're supposed to mention Yemen and how we're all racists as well mate, do it right.

Does it bother you to have a mirror put in front? Why make the injustice of calling out the same shit in other countries a joke? feck Russia but lets not kid ourselves how bigoted some of the news outlets have been about this. Calling this a bigger crises because it's "civilized europe".

You have some on here thinking this is a fascinating first time ever war on social media.

 

[Rektsanwalt]

Except unfortunately it's not that simple.
The guy that hits his wife at home isn't the one at personal risk for stopping the attacker. He's more on the side lines shouting words of support to the much weaker nice guy who is at risk for stopping the attacker and is likely going to get beaten up because of it.

Which doesn't change a thing about what I was trying to say: doing good things is good, doing bad things is bad and just because someone who does bad things now does something good, doesn't make that thing bad by association with former actions.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[The Corinthian]

I will quote every one of you wannabe communists and ask you to explain yourselves or go away.

Some of you wannabe diplomats would have Ukraine partitioned to satisfy Putler. If that's diplomacy for you, go and live in Mother Russia.

Grow up, or if you’re going to be so emotional, log off and cool off before posting.

 

[Bepi]

Let’s be clear on this: the only way Putin and similar despots have to succeed is to make the world go back to the 1920s technologically, first and foremost… which is the only way they have to keep million / billion people subjugated. Russian “light” (without heavy MADs) campaign in Ukraine is a fiasco: equipment and logistics are outdated, morale is low, their own population is largely brotherly with Ukraine does not see what this war is about at all. Putin cannot win in any substantial manner from this war, he can only dig his (and our) hole deeper until doom. That’s why extreme caution is needed from NATO in dealing to achieve defusion, without being too carried away once this gets uglier, in case the talks are not successful today. The fact that they are still going after four hours is a signal Ukraine is really trying… because, and make no mistake, folks: this war has a wolf and a sheep.

 

[Drifter]

If Jeremy Corbyn were a poster on the Caf...

That's a bad thing?. Rather that than Tony Blair, George Bush.

 

[the_cliff]

Which doesn't change a thing about what I was trying to say: doing good things is good, doing bad things is bad and just because someone who does bad things now does something good, doesn't make that thing bad by association with former actions.

You've solved the problem of crowded prisons. Let's let all the murderers out as long as they commit a good deed today.

 

[BlueHaze]

Putler