Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

frostbite said:
Sorry, but we are all Ukrainians in this.

Sure, I am just a fake "Ukrainian" watching the war in the safety of my living room. But still, it makes my blood boil when I watch the destruction of Mariupol. For what? All this death and destruction ... for what? For nothing! Absolutely nothing. Just because of the moron Putin. And the millions of Russians who have voted for Putin in the past 20 years. So yes, I have no problem imagining Russians as orcs or nazis.

And yes, I know that you and millions of other Russians are nice people, but also in 1940 millions of Germans were nice people, too. Those innocent Germans had (some) responsibility for what happened in Auschwitz, and innocent Russians today have (some) responsibility for what is happening in Mariupol. And I have the right to say this, even though I am not a Jew and I am not a Ukrainian.
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Dehumanizing the chosen enemy is what made Auschwitz possible. It's also what made Bucha or Mariupol possible.

If you think dehumanizing the Russians is right, you aren't much better than them. If at all, as you don't have the excuse of being brainwashed by propaganda.

So please let's stay civil here and value basic human rights, even for the Russians.

It's what separates us from them and is what makes us the better society.
 
Zehner said:
But I'm not discussing with Ukrainians but with, well, other people who write paragraphs about the war on a football forum.
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In Baltics, Poland, etc. we’re all very much Ukrainians currently (even on the battlefield field) since 2014, and if you ask any Ukrainian soldier they’ll single us out for the support shown. I agree with you that dehumanizing shouldn’t normally be celebrated but this is also part of the coping mechanism for us here given how close to home this is as past wounds are still fresh for many here. Big problem why with Russia it’s likely to repeat itself again in the future is because to this day there was no collective admission and apology for the past atrocities inflicted on people by Soviet regime in the same way Germany had to go through such processes.
 
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frostbite said:
Sorry, but we are all Ukrainians in this.

Sure, I am just a fake "Ukrainian" watching the war in the safety of my living room. But still, it makes my blood boil when I watch the destruction of Mariupol. For what? All this death and destruction ... for what? For nothing! Absolutely nothing. Just because of the moron Putin. And the millions of Russians who have voted for Putin in the past 20 years. So yes, I have no problem imagining Russians as orcs or nazis.

And yes, I know that you and millions of other Russians are nice people, but also in 1940 millions of Germans were nice people, too. Those innocent Germans had (some) responsibility for what happened in Auschwitz, and innocent Russians today have (some) responsibility for what is happening in Mariupol. And I have the right to say this, even though I am not a Jew and I am not a Ukrainian.
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It makes everyones blood boil. I have survived a war as a civilian and as a soldier. I lost my home, family and friends to bullets and grenades and still I know that in war nothing is always black and white. I promise you that the majority of the Russian soldiers do not want to be there, if you ever lived through a war you would know that. The monsters are the people orchestrating this war not the people forced in to it.
 
A russian friend I have in London was told to leave the restaurant where she normally has lunch, because they don't want to serve russians. But it's ok I guess, we're all ukranians and it's a coping mechanism... some people need to get a grip.
 
maniak said:
A russian friend I have in London was told to leave the restaurant where she normally has lunch, because they don't want to serve russians. But it's ok I guess, we're all ukranians and it's a coping mechanism... some people need to get a grip.
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Well that’s obviously not right, and what have this anything to do with orcs on the battlefield?
 
Anyway, it's important not to get too derailed on that topic as, even though I do believe that it's wrong, it's certainly not the first thing that we should be worried about at the moment.
 
Rajma said:
Well that’s obviously not right, and what have this anything to do with orcs on the battlefield?
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Do you honestly think the random joe who goes all in in the "these russian are inhumane" will differentiate between soldiers on the ground and russian civilians? Especially when the narrative seems to be that the average russian supports the war?
 
harms said:
Anyway, it's important not to get too derailed on that topic as, even though I do believe that it's wrong, it's certainly not the first thing that we should be worried about at the moment.
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Not the first thing for sure, but we should keep it in mind, especially because of this...
Rajma said:
Big problem why with Russia it’s likely to repeat itself again in the future is because to this day there was no collective admission and apology for the past atrocities inflicted on people by Soviet regime in the same way Germany had to go through such processes.
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Assuming Ukraine wins the war (which seems more and more likely) we need to make sure that Russia won't attack again. It's not enough to destroy the Russian army, that can be rebuild. The world has to destroy Russian imperialism as an idea, and the comparison to Nazi Germany is a very good one. The world made sure to get rid of their ideas (which was very successful).

And for this to be possible the first thing we all have to acknowledge is that the Russians are people that can be better than what they are doing right now, that they aren't orcs that just have to be exterminated. And when the war is over ways need to be found how to rebuild Russian society in a different way, like it was done with the German society.
 
maniak said:
Do you honestly think the random joe who goes all in in the "these russian are inhumane" will differentiate between soldiers on the ground and russian civilians? Especially when the narrative seems to be that the average russian supports the war?
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Depends which kind of random joe you mean. I believe it is much more unlikely for an English random joe to differentiate than for a Baltic one, who might have Russian neighbours etc, due to the big Russian minority in their countries.
 
stefan92 said:
Not the first thing for sure, but we should keep it in mind, especially because of this...

Assuming Ukraine wins the war (which seems more and more likely) we need to make sure that Russia won't attack again. It's not enough to destroy the Russian army, that can be rebuild. The world has to destroy Russian imperialism as an idea, and the comparison to Nazi Germany is a very good one. The world made sure to get rid of their ideas (which was very successful).

And for this to be possible the first thing we all have to acknowledge is that the Russians are people that can be better than what they are doing right now, that they aren't orcs that just have to be exterminated. And when the war is over ways need to be found how to rebuild Russian society in a different way, like it was done with the German society.
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Totally agree, that’s what I tried to say basically. God bless people like @harms, it gives me hope that not all is lost there, and that such voices are just overshadowed by the level of propaganda.
 
Rajma said:
Well that’s obviously not right, and what have this anything to do with orcs on the battlefield?
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The image is a type of indiscriminate dehumanizing tactics. Those affect a lot more people than the ones you might be initially intending to. History is full of examples like this and it’s never led to anything good.
 
stefan92 said:
Depends which kind of random joe you mean. I believe it is much more unlikely for an English random joe to differentiate than for a Baltic one, who might have Russian neighbours etc, due to the big Russian minority in their countries.
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The random joe in the west. Selling the idea russian soldiers are not human, they're beasts, will obviously spillover to civilians.
 
Zehner said:
There are reports of poor and uneducated people being forced to sign contracts through various means and many of the atrocities being committed seem to be instructions by officers. The Chechen's main task in this war is to pursue and shoot deserters. And all that's ignoring that they are completely indoctrinated by a propaganda machinery without being taught any media competency or independent thinking during their education. Changes are that this could be you if you were born in their stead.

I'm not saying they are innocent or deserve mercy but their lifes are essentially tragedies themselves so being amused about their deaths or depicting them as worthless inhuman creatures is wrong.
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That never excuses the soldiers carrying out those atrocities though.
 
Redlyn said:
"Russia's actions are criminal but the west is not innocent".

This is my favourite news outlet presently and the most unbiased.

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Not this two sides again. People are still falling for this on 3rd month of this war. :lol: :lol: I’ll get myself banned if I try to respond to this horeshit. Please clean up this thread from baseless Russian propaganda.
 
Rajma said:
Not this two sides again. People are still falling for this on 3rd month of this war. :lol: :lol: I’ll get myself banned if I try to respond to this horeshit. Please clean up this thread from baseless Russian propaganda.
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Yea it’s mental. “The west is not innocent” part is kind of true though. We allowed to be manipulated by Russia for years and our response to Crimea invasion was diabolic. But the NATO pushing Putin is just a complete nonsense that is being spouted by Nazi supporters like the guy in this video.

 
dove said:
Yea it’s mental. “The west is not innocent” part is kind of true though. We allowed to be manipulated by Russia for years and our response to Crimea invasion was diabolic. But the NATO pushing Putin is just a complete nonsense that is being spouted by Nazi supporters like the guy in this video.

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Precisely. If you want to blame the west/nato in this, it can only be done from the angle that they didn’t do enough to deter Putin in the first place.
 
harms said:
Orcs and Nazis shouldn’t be equated. Orc is a race (or even a literally de-humanizing plot device), nazism is an ideology. By calling them orcs you ignore the actual reasons of why all of this is happening, leaving the window open for it to happen again in the future. Do call them nazis or fascists though, they clearly are.

The last thing I want is to escape collective responsibility — believe me, I thought about it more than you and probably anyone else on this forum over the past 2 months. And it has nothing to do with orcs.
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I can understand the Ukrainian soldiers calling the Russian troops "orcs". Yes, it's dehumanising, but it's not easy for most soldiers to kill another human being when you can actually see them (i.e. when they are in individually-visible eyesight range), as many studies have shown - so part of their training is designed to overcome this natural barrier.

De-humanising the enemy military is a psychological aid to this process. And if you are fighting a war where it's kill or be killed, there is no space for niceties.

However, extending this to the civilian population of the enemy nation is wrong and not helpful. Some people disagree and say that the civilian Russians support Putin, but this is not by any means especially true or fair. For starters, I'd guess that many Russians don't support Putin, but can't do much about it and so just keep their heads down. And we can hardly rely on Russian voting numbers for evidence of Putin's popularity - these are as rigged as anything else in Russia, with state control of all media and political opponents murdered or jailed. Moreover, many Russians simply don't know what is being done in Ukraine - because the only info they get is from the state media.

Of course there are Russians who do support Putin, quite a lot of them I imagine, but some of that support will be based on lack of knowledge. I don't know what proportion of Russians are ultra-nationalists who positively like Putin's dictatorial rule and aggression, but I'd guess it's a minority.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I can understand the Ukrainian soldiers calling the Russian troops "orcs". Yes, it's dehumanising, but it's not easy for most soldiers to kill another human being when you can actually see them (i.e. when they are in individually-visible eyesight range), as many studies have shown - so part of their training is designed to overcome this natural barrier.

De-humanising the enemy military is a psychological aid to this process. And if you are fighting a war where it's kill or be killed, there is no space for niceties.

However, extending this to the civilian population of the enemy nation is wrong and not helpful. Some people disagree and say that the civilian Russians support Putin, but this is not by any means especially true or fair. For starters, I'd guess that many Russians don't support Putin, but can't do much about it and so just keep their heads down. And we can hardly rely on Russian voting numbers for evidence of Putin's popularity - these are as rigged as anything else in Russia, with state control of all media and political opponents murdered or jailed. Moreover, many Russians simply don't know what is being done in Ukraine - because the only info they get is from the state media.

Of course there are Russians who do support Putin, quite a lot of them I imagine, but some of that support will be based on lack of knowledge. I don't know what proportion of Russians are ultra-nationalists who positively like Putin's dictatorial rule and aggression, but I'd guess it's a minority.
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Very good post and I agree.
 
Morality aside, I'd say it's also wrong to use dehumanizing language/art from a strategy perspective. What you want is for Russian soldiers to surrender, mutiny or desert. You have to convince them that they're fighting the wrong kind of war. You have to convince them that their leadership treates them like cannon fodder. They give you terrible rations, terrible equipment. Your leaders have massive dachas for themselves and continue to have their hands in your pocket. They're robbing you blind.
 
UN confirms Mariupol evacuation according to the BBC:

A United Nations spokesperson has also confirmed that an operation to evacuate civilians from the southern port city of Mariupol is taking place. Earlier Russia said groups of 25 and 21 people had been evacuated from the area near the Azovstal steelworks, the last remaining part of the city under the control of Ukrainian troops.

Ukrainian soldiers have said 20 people left the steelworks yesterday. Ukrainian officials say there about 1,000 civilians and more than 500 wounded soldiers trapped at the industrial complex.

However, there are also an estimated 100,000 residents living without water, gas or communications in the wider city, which has been heavily bombed in weeks of Russian attacks.
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https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61252785
 
VorZakone said:
Morality aside, I'd say it's also wrong to use dehumanizing language/art from a strategy perspective. What you want is for Russian soldiers to surrender, mutiny or desert. You have to convince them that they're fighting the wrong kind of war. You have to convince them that their leadership treates them like cannon fodder. They give you terrible rations, terrible equipment. Your leaders have massive dachas for themselves and continue to have their hands in your pocket. They're robbing you blind.
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True. Completely agree.
 
NicolaSacco said:
Is there something that makes him a bigger Whoa than some of the other senior officers killed? Not challenging you, just interested.
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Valery Gerasimov is the Chief of General Staff which means he's the highest ranking officer of the Russian military. He's the guy that sits next to the Minister of Defence (Sergei Shoigu) in those long-table meetings with Vlad.
 
stevoc said:
That never excuses the soldiers carrying out those atrocities though.
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No, but nobody is talking about excusing it. Only that there are levels to it. To me it makes a difference if you kill civilians because you just feelnlike it or if a superior tells you to while you know very well that you'll be killed for refusing to follow orders. It puts you into a kind of "them or me" situation.

See, Tolkien created the orcs because he needed cannon fodder his heroes could slaughter without anybody asking moral questions whether it's a bad thing that Gimli and Legolas playfully compete in killing more soldiers of the opponent than the other.

Likening Russian soldiers to orcs is dehumanizing them and against the very values Ukraine defends. And while it might make killing easier for Ukrainians, there's no excuse why uninvolved people do so. The images of teenage Russian POWs at the beginning of the war and devastated Russian mothers who lost their sons were very powerful. Empathy for the enemy helpe us to a) understand bis motives (and exploit them), b) make them turn on their superiors and c) im case of victory, initiate real change in Russia itself.

On the other hand, if they are treated like beasts (and that's what depicting them as such leads to), it will only drive them back into Putins arms. Kill where you have to kill but make it clear to them that you only do it to defend yourself.
 
frostbite said:
Sorry, but we are all Ukrainians in this.

Sure, I am just a fake "Ukrainian" watching the war in the safety of my living room. But still, it makes my blood boil when I watch the destruction of Mariupol. For what? All this death and destruction ... for what? For nothing! Absolutely nothing. Just because of the moron Putin. And the millions of Russians who have voted for Putin in the past 20 years. So yes, I have no problem imagining Russians as orcs or nazis.

And yes, I know that you and millions of other Russians are nice people, but also in 1940 millions of Germans were nice people, too. Those innocent Germans had (some) responsibility for what happened in Auschwitz, and innocent Russians today have (some) responsibility for what is happening in Mariupol. And I have the right to say this, even though I am not a Jew and I am not a Ukrainian.
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Well said.

We can have sympathy for the Orcs once the war is finished. Now, why should we feel any sympathy at all to the invaders?
 
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