Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

TMDaines said:
Well, I think that is a big part of why populism has thrived, because much of the media, in an effort to be democratic and support free speech, presents bad faith arguments as having equal weight to those that are meticulously well researched and evidenced.
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Do you actually truly believe the billionaire gatekeepers of media organisations put in an effort to 'be democratic and support free speech'?
 
the hea said:
Intersting that there are no markings from air burst ammunitions. Trying to take out infantry or other soft targets out in the open with direct impact ammunition is extremly inefective compared to air burst detonations.
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There was a tweet thread posted a long time ago here that proposed that Russia don't have the fuses to do airbursts. Hence the patterns like in these photos.
 
ThierryFabregas said:
Do you actually truly believe the billionaire gatekeepers of media organisations put in an effort to 'be democratic and support free speech'?
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Yes, there are many reliable private media companies and there are public broadcasters as well here in Germany which are financed by taxes to provide independent sources of information.

The post you quoted was absolutely spot on if you ask me. Arguing both sides of the medal is generally a good thing but it shouldn't mean repeating obviously wrong lines of argumentation without explaining why they are wrong. And it shouldn't mean that you "overrepresent" minority opinions and give the impression they're anywhere close to the societal consensus. For example, when you have a political talk show on for instance climate change and invite guests from different political parties, do you really have to invite a right wing politician whose party got <10% to provide him a platform to share his "climate change isn't human made" bullshit? I don't think so. There's no need to support such an absurd take which has so little backing in the society.
 
So far the Russians inflict a lot of damage to Ukraine using artillery. In a couple of months, Ukraine may have the modern equipment needed to destroy that artillery.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-artillery-to-ukraine-despite-russian-threats

UK to send long-range rocket artillery to Ukraine despite Russian threats

M270 launch systems have 50-mile range and can target Russian artillery that has been attacking cities in eastern Ukraine
 
Carolina Red said:
Guys, we can’t ban people for thinking a different side of the war is going to win.
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In my opinion, the problem is not saying that Putin is winning. Objectively, I also think Putin is winning right now. Because Putin is bombarding Ukraine, has already destroyed a big part of Ukraine, but nobody has destroyed a big part or Russia. There are millions of Ukrainian refuges, there are zero Russian refuges. We were afraid that Russia will take Kiev and they didn't, but that does not mean that "Ukraine won", it only means that "Ukraine survived". We don't know what will happen in the future, Ukraine may win, but even then, they may have hundreds of thousands of dead citizens, and hundreds of thousands of destroyed buildings. We know for sure that at the end of this war a large part of Ukraine will be completely destroyed.


What I don't like is the blatant Russia propaganda that says "Europe has to make a deal with Putin the winner and cut ties with USA that has its own selfish reasons to be involved". It's a constant theme of Russian propaganda. The wet dream of Russia is that NATO will break up.

So, we see that some people here continue this theme. Putin is bad, but Putin is a winner and Europeans should make a deal with Putin. Forget USA, they are selfish, Europe has to break ranks and make a deal with Putin, giving him what he needs to be happy. Forget what Ukraine wants, Ukraine is not worth supporting if that means that the European economy suffers. It is better if Europe makes a deal with Putin right now, and makes money helping Putin be strong and happy. Sure, some Ukrainians died but it is better to finish the war now, give part of Ukraine to Russia, and prevent more deaths. After all, Ukraine used to be a part of Russia, why is Europe keeping this war going? Europe is partly responsible for the deaths, because they give arms that are being used in this war.


I think that this line of reasoning is not "opinion". It is Russian propaganda. There is a difference.
 
frostbite said:
In my opinion, the problem is not saying that Putin is winning. Objectively, I also think Putin is winning right now. Because Putin is bombarding Ukraine, has already destroyed a big part of Ukraine, but nobody has destroyed a big part or Russia. There are millions of Ukrainian refuges, there are zero Russian refuges. We were afraid that Russia will take Kiev and they didn't, but that does not mean that "Ukraine won", it only means that "Ukraine survived". We don't know what will happen in the future, Ukraine may win, but even then, they may have hundreds of thousands of dead citizens, and hundreds of thousands of destroyed buildings. We know for sure that at the end of this war a large part of Ukraine will be completely destroyed.


What I don't like is the blatant Russia propaganda that says "Europe has to make a deal with Putin the winner and cut ties with USA that has its own selfish reasons to be involved". It's a constant theme of Russian propaganda. The wet dream of Russia is that NATO will break up.

So, we see that some people here continue this theme. Putin is bad, but Putin is a winner and Europeans should make a deal with Putin. Forget USA, they are selfish, Europe has to break ranks and make a deal with Putin, giving him what he needs to be happy. Forget what Ukraine wants, Ukraine is not worth supporting if that means that the European economy suffers. It is better if Europe makes a deal with Putin right now, and makes money helping Putin be strong and happy. Sure, some Ukrainians died but it is better to finish the war now, give part of Ukraine to Russia, and prevent more deaths. After all, Ukraine used to be a part of Russia, why is Europe keeping this war going? Europe is partly responsible for the deaths, because they give arms that are being used in this war.


I think that this line of reasoning is not "opinion". It is Russian propaganda. There is a difference.
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While you don’t agree with what’s being said, and you think it is Russian propaganda, we still can’t just ban people for posting what someone thinks is propaganda.

I’ll be the first person laughing my ass off when Russia loses this war, and certainly if Putin drops dead… but I can’t ban a guy for thinking differently.
 
Carolina Red said:
While you don’t agree with what’s being said, and you think it is Russian propaganda, we still can’t just ban people for posting what someone thinks is propaganda.

I’ll be the first person laughing my ass off when Russia loses this war, and certainly if Putin drops dead… but I can’t ban a guy for thinking differently.
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I never asked for banning anyone.

I just pointed out that it is not the same thing having an opinion about what is happening and what will happen, and asking Europe to cut off Ukraine and make a deal directly with the winner Putin. I believe that you will agree with me that this is NOT "just an opinion".
 
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They’ll probably pull back soon to strategically better placed Lysychansk but the damage they have inflicted on the enemy and morale gained through this counter attack in Severodonetsk will probably be worth it.
 
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Frosty said:
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This seems a bit misleading as there was a video previously which showed a couple of Russian tanks which were covered there and artillery just hammered the whole area. It wasn’t like there were loads of troops in a trench who then sallied forth a la WW1 which the writer seems to be suggesting. Russia seem inept but not Gen. Hague level inept.
 
Great clip and a good example of why you shouldn’t need to dignify propaganda with having to exhaustively debunk it. Just giving it courtesy and oxygen is more than it deserves.

 
TMDaines said:
Great clip and a good example of why you shouldn’t need to dignify propaganda with having to exhaustively debunk it. Just giving it courtesy and oxygen is more than it deserves.

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That's very good, but he mentioned communists as orchestrating the worst atrocities of the last two centuries there. Is he one of those who thinks the Russians are still communists?
 
nimic said:
That's very good, but he mentioned communists as orchestrating the worst atrocities of the last two centuries there. Is he one of those who thinks the Russians are still communists?
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He's a Berlusconi stooge, so.
 
nimic said:
That's very good, but he mentioned communists as orchestrating the worst atrocities of the last two centuries there. Is he one of those who thinks the Russians are still communists?
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I wasn’t reading (as I speak Italian) and I interpreted him as referring to the Kremlin being the seat of the Soviet Union’s power, not being confused about communism.
 
Frosty said:
What on earth happened to Lavrov? For years he was alwasy treated like the adult in the room and the translator of what Putin or Medvedev said for the West
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Hard to say. Maybe he's always been like this. Maybe he's being forced to say things like this.

I remember some Polish official saying that Lavrov wanted to resign but wasn't allowed.
 
Frosty said:
What on earth happened to Lavrov? For years he was alwasy treated like the adult in the room and the translator of what Putin or Medvedev said for the West
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Lavrov managed to con the world into believing he was somewhat normal amidst a sea of propagandist clowns, only to windup exposing himself to global audiences as Russia's chief propagandist clown.
 

Russian forces shelling Russian-controlled Donetsk city again, with an intention to speed up mobilization efforts.
 
Rajma said:

Russian forces shelling Russian-controlled Donetsk city again, with an intention to speed up mobilization efforts.
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I don't get this video - nothing happens in it.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
This seems a bit misleading as there was a video previously which showed a couple of Russian tanks which were covered there and artillery just hammered the whole area. It wasn’t like there were loads of troops in a trench who then sallied forth a la WW1 which the writer seems to be suggesting. Russia seem inept but not Gen. Haig level inept.
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Fixed.

In fact, I was thinking more of Gen. Luigi Cadorna or even Gen. Franz Conrad von Hötzendorf level of ineptitude while their respective armies were totally unprepared and rotten from within.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
This seems a bit misleading as there was a video previously which showed a couple of Russian tanks which were covered there and artillery just hammered the whole area. It wasn’t like there were loads of troops in a trench who then sallied forth a la WW1 which the writer seems to be suggesting. Russia seem inept but not Gen. Hague level inept.
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RedDevilQuebecois said:
Fixed.

In fact, I was thinking more of Gen. Luigi Cadorna or even Gen. Franz Conrad von Hötzendorf level of ineptitude while their respective armies were totally unprepared and rotten from within.
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Haig shouldn't even be in that conversation to be honest. There will always be a debate over the butcher's bill but he oversaw the greatest victories the British Army ever had (with no small thanks to the Australians and Canadians).

I will stop there to avoid too much of a distraction.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Fixed.

In fact, I was thinking more of Gen. Luigi Cadorna or even Gen. Franz Conrad von Hötzendorf level of ineptitude while their respective armies were totally unprepared and rotten from within.
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Getting my Dutch cities mixed up with my generals. Appreciated!
 
Frosty said:
Haig shouldn't even be in that conversation to be honest. There will always be a debate over the butcher's bill but he oversaw the greatest victories the British Army ever had (with no small thanks to the Australians and Canadians).

I will stop there to avoid too much of a distraction.
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Indeed. A topic for another time, but he got very unfairly treated by some historians in the 1960s and it tarnished his reputation.
 
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