Dunno, do you know what info the intelligence services have because I don’t?
Russia's at it again
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Dunno, do you know what info the intelligence services have because I don’t?
Absolutely. No problem there. I'm sure we can agree that Genocide is a bad thing.
Absolutely
So you invent international laws as you go? Who decides who deserves to get independence through referendum and who doesn't? I take it, US State Department is in charge of such decisions nowadays.
Here's a good piece on who Americans brought to power in Kosovo. Lovely bunch of war criminals and drug traffikers.
https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/03/01/kosovo-a-nest-of-crime-fugitives-in-europe/
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You don't need to. Boris has already explained that 'the guy' from Porton Down told him it was Russia.
What, that Novichok is a Russian nerve agent?
No that the source of the stuff used in this attack was Russia. 'The guy' told him.
That doesn't contradict my earlier position. I only spoke about preventing genocide in accordance with the UN's Responsibility to Protect protocol.
Have you got a link to that by any chance?
Were Serbs about to start genocide back in 2008? If I remember correctly, there were war criminals from all sides in that war, not just Serbs. By the looks of it, it's Serbia that needs protection from Kosovars, not the other way around. Perhaps you've ignored the article I've posted, so here are the best bits.
With revealed NATO files as well as WikiLeaks documents, findings suggest that the government of Kosovo is lead by crime fugitives with names such as the ‘Butchers’, ‘Balkan Mafia Boss’ as well as organ harvesters. Judging from the revelations origin, it seems like the United States and some other Western European powers that support the government of Kosovo, have had extensive knowledge for several years of criminal ties to former rebel leader Hashim Thaci, including the whole structure of political parties in the country, without exception. Foreign political, military, police, and justice powers in Kosovo, have scandalously kept silent for over 17 years, granting crime a lawless and consequence-free paradise. Those findings suggest that the foreigners would continue to turn a blind eye to crime gangs on their doorstep, if there were no insiders to reveal the evidence of their tacit involvement. Opposition is challenging the current rulers, but U.S. Ambassador to Kosovo, who spends more time in the country’s assembly facilities rather then in his office, seemed to be disgusted by the opposition’s actions. In reality there is and will never be any democratic or freedom progress in the country unless there is to be a political class free from corruption; but nevertheless evidence suggests that foreign powers have been all too willing to support corrupt political elites in return for political influence.
Some citizens of the country, outraged by the foreign embassies interference in the country’s internal political issues, notably by U. S Ambassador Greg Delawie whose office permanently supported politicians who are officially accused for crime involvement had initiated an online petition to address their concern at the U. S. President Obama’s office in Washington.
The EU’s attempt to positively influence Kosovo has been significantly weakened (if it hasn’t entirely failed) by the fact that some of its high officials within the EU Rule of Law Mission in Kosovo (EULEX), have been accused of involvement in the very same organized crime and corruption that they have been mandated to combat in joint efforts with local institutions.
The newly elected President of Kosovo, Hashim Thaçi, is heavily accused by the European Council of involvement in crime and corruption, including being suspected of having committed war crimes and crimes against humanity, for example alleged “organ harvesting“ during the war against Serb forces in 1999. Another report, identifies him as one of the “biggest fish” in organized crime in his country, according to western military intelligence reports leaked to The Guardian. In June 1997, in an incident that many individuals in the guerrilla movement identified as “sinister”, a Kosovo-Albanian journalist who had close ties with the movement was found dead in Tirana, his face “marred by repeated stabbings with a screwdriver and at the end of buttocks was found a broken bottle” as told by the New York Times. Identified as Ali Uka he was supportive to the rebel movement, but also sufficiently independent to criticize the uprising. At the time of his death, he was living in an apartment with Hashim Thaçi, said The Guardian.
The assembly speaker of the Republic of Kosovo, Kadri Veseli, is among those in charge of the geographical spread of criminal gangs in Kosovo is located along with alleged familial links and business ties, as diplomatic leaked cables and NATO intelligence files suggests. The report identifies him as well connected with opposition political parties such as the AAK of Ramush Haradinaj and the Vetevendosje party, of which Rexhep Selimi is a leading member, as well as several other small groups that act as fronts for crime clans through order of ‘Kanun’; and the list goes on and on with ministers and deputies, police, and local mayors all across the country.
Seemingly, the organized crime and corruption, which appears to have been systematically installed and supported by foreign powers and domestic political, justice, police, and military establishments in Kosovo, has now officially accomplished the criteria to truthfully be called as the state of mafia—a country which is the last republic to have emerged from what once was known as Yugoslavia, now a nest of the crime and corruption that has been rotting people’s lives ever since the reported death of the strongman of Belgrade Slobodan Milosevic who was supposed to be tried for alleged crimes and war crimes commitment against humanity across the Balkan peninsula.
Kosovo is the poorest and most isolated country in Europe. A third of the workforce is unemployed, and corruption is widespread. Youth unemployment (which includes those aged 25 and under) stands at two in three, and nearly half of the estimated 1.8 million citizens of Kosovo are considered to be in poverty. From December 2014 until February 2015, about five percent of the population was forced to leave the country in an effort to find a better life, studies, and more dignified jobs, by taking the uncertain path towards wealthier countries in the EU.
Some citizens of the country, outraged by the foreign embassies interference in the country’s internal political issues, notably by U. S Ambassador Greg Delawie whose office permanently supported politicians who are officially accused for crime involvement had initiated an online petition to address their concern at the U. S. President Obama’s office in Washington.
The EU’s attempt to positively influence Kosovo has been significantly weakened (if it hasn’t entirely failed) by the fact that some of its high officials within the EU Rule of Law Mission in Kosovo (EULEX), have been accused of involvement in the very same organized crime and corruption that they have been mandated to combat in joint efforts with local institutions.
The newly elected President of Kosovo, Hashim Thaçi, is heavily accused by the European Council of involvement in crime and corruption, including being suspected of having committed war crimes and crimes against humanity, for example alleged “organ harvesting“ during the war against Serb forces in 1999. Another report, identifies him as one of the “biggest fish” in organized crime in his country, according to western military intelligence reports leaked to The Guardian. In June 1997, in an incident that many individuals in the guerrilla movement identified as “sinister”, a Kosovo-Albanian journalist who had close ties with the movement was found dead in Tirana, his face “marred by repeated stabbings with a screwdriver and at the end of buttocks was found a broken bottle” as told by the New York Times. Identified as Ali Uka he was supportive to the rebel movement, but also sufficiently independent to criticize the uprising. At the time of his death, he was living in an apartment with Hashim Thaçi, said The Guardian.
The assembly speaker of the Republic of Kosovo, Kadri Veseli, is among those in charge of the geographical spread of criminal gangs in Kosovo is located along with alleged familial links and business ties, as diplomatic leaked cables and NATO intelligence files suggests. The report identifies him as well connected with opposition political parties such as the AAK of Ramush Haradinaj and the Vetevendosje party, of which Rexhep Selimi is a leading member, as well as several other small groups that act as fronts for crime clans through order of ‘Kanun’; and the list goes on and on with ministers and deputies, police, and local mayors all across the country.
Seemingly, the organized crime and corruption, which appears to have been systematically installed and supported by foreign powers and domestic political, justice, police, and military establishments in Kosovo, has now officially accomplished the criteria to truthfully be called as the state of mafia—a country which is the last republic to have emerged from what once was known as Yugoslavia, now a nest of the crime and corruption that has been rotting people’s lives ever since the reported death of the strongman of Belgrade Slobodan Milosevic who was supposed to be tried for alleged crimes and war crimes commitment against humanity across the Balkan peninsula.
Kosovo is the poorest and most isolated country in Europe. A third of the workforce is unemployed, and corruption is widespread. Youth unemployment (which includes those aged 25 and under) stands at two in three, and nearly half of the estimated 1.8 million citizens of Kosovo are considered to be in poverty. From December 2014 until February 2015, about five percent of the population was forced to leave the country in an effort to find a better life, studies, and more dignified jobs, by taking the uncertain path towards wealthier countries in the EU.
I'm not interested in derailing this thread into a discussion about Kosovo and Serbia, but my main point of using the UN's R2P protocol, with NATO as an implementer, still stands. If there is a genocide going on, we should use all available resources to stop it.
Saw that, when he said it I took it to mean that Novichok is a known Russian nerve agent. As in they are the only known producers of said nerve agent.
There was no genocide going on in 2008, the war was long over by then. By the way, you have no problem derailing threads when you feel it suits your argument or someone else does it for you. But OK, let's stay on the subject.
I wasn't referring to 2008, but speaking in general. But yes, back on topic.
I am struggling to see what in the guardians report conflicts with any of the facts so far established, or the conclusions reached, or the actions taken as a consequence.
Boris claimed Porton Down told him it was the Russians. Porton Down is now claiming they came to no such judgement, and don't have the means to come to such a judgement.
What do you mean by oppose? If it doesn’t involve being able to stand against him in free and fair elections, then this supposed opposition is worthless.
I didn’t agree with Tony Benn on much, but he was right on the money about these 5 questions you should ask about the powerful:
WHAT POWER HAVE YOU GOT?
WHERE DID YOU GET IT FROM?
IN WHOSE INTERESTS DO YOU EXERCISE IT?
TO WHOM ARE YOU ACCOUNTABLE?
HOW CAN WE GET RID OF YOU?
The answers, applied to Putin, are laughably, hilariously inadequate. Forget about spies and assassinations for a moment, this is the real problem with Putin and his gangster regime.
Boris is a cock, and unfit for public office. Everybody knows that. I certainly haven’t based my view of Russian culpability on anything he’s said, only the known facts and the likely conclusions you can draw from them, allied to Russia’s previous form. It sure makes a lot more sense that antihenry’s ludicrous, fact free, completely make up conspiracy theory about European energy markets. Balance of probabilities.
Pardon?
No, Boris did not claim he was told it was the Russians, he claimed he was told it was a Russian nerve agent.
Yes, I’ve read it, first in this thread, then again when someone gave me the link to this thread and now again. I also heard/saw Boris live on tv.
My point stands.
"do you believe the source of this agent is Russia"
"porton told me no doubt"
"he never said that"
"porton told me no doubt"
"he never said that"
The source is Russia.
Whether they used it remains to be seen.
Whether they used it remains to be seen.
Are you really that low?
They said it was a Russian nerve agent from a group called Novichok which is what it appears to be.
When you have the flu, do you mean to intentionally infect someone else or it just happens as a result of your activities while having the flu?
So the source wasn't Russia as Boris said?
He's just being a good nationalist and defending his dictator's honor.
Well who else produces it?
I don't know, I'm not claiming to know the source - that would be Boris. Via an organisation that today categorically said they haven't traced the source.
Russia in its whole history was never a democratic country until the fall of Soviet Union in 1991, culturally and traditionally democracy has never been typical for Russian society. First it was centuries of Tsarist monarchy, followed by seventy years of totalitarian Soviet regime. Even now people that are running the country are those born, raised and formed as individuals during Soviet times, Putin included. Same goes for most of the population, these people were formed by the system that hasn't been around for almost three decades now. I don't know if Russia will ever become a democratic state in the western sense but there's a reason it's still a long way behind most of European countries in that respect, these things don't happen overnight, it's a long painful process, probably at least couple of generations need to come and go before things can seriously change, if they do at all.
That's what I keep telling here time and again, you cannot judge other countries from the outside looking in. Assad or Saddam may look like terrible despots to an American or German, but there's a reason these countries fall apart when you remove the "bad guys" and try to "bring freedom to the oppressed". Suddenly everything goes to hell in a basket and things unravel to the point that people wish the old dictator was back in power to keep things in order. Truth is, he may be a bad guy, but he keeps many other bad guys in check, and that's the style of governing most people in places like that understand and accept. Would it be better for the people if it was democracy instead of dictatorship? Of course, it would. Can it happen now? No. And not because of the bad dictator. He's the effect, not the cause. The real reason things cannot change fast is history, mentality, culture and traditions along with religion, all these things that are deeply ingrained in the local population. Plus, of course the geopolitical games from the big boys that constantly get involved don't help matters at all.
So all these questions are only relevant if you're talking about a country with long traditions of democracy, with long standing institutions dedicated to advance and protect civil freedoms, etc etc. Russia is not there yet , cannot possibly be and may not get there in a while.
That would be very naive.
Anyone can produce it.
Wasn’t at the time but then again I wasn’t analysing every word,
Further to that most of the major Western Countries will produce enough to study it.