Ah yes it's all Britains fault and we should give the Russians a second attempt.
if that fails, third time lucky?
Russia's at it again
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Ah yes it's all Britains fault and we should give the Russians a second attempt.
if that fails, third time lucky?
Cool story bro, but NATO had nothing to do with Iraq and most of it (except Britain) vehemently opposed it.
How they lucked out? You know that a lot of Ukrainian politicians think was their gretatest mistake of the past 30 years? Giving up their atomic weapons they also lucked out on inheriting. Russia hasn't build those weapons, it merely inherited the military of the Soviet Union and made sure their former territories lost most of their parts of the share.
No idea why you think the US isnÄt democratic when it clearly is, however flawed their specific system is. But they do have free and regular elections.
In regards to that third world comment: that might be a bit tongue in cheek and in reference to a rather famous qoute by former Chancellor Helmut Schmidt, but in the end Russia is a country 50th by HDI, having an economy smaller than Italys while having far, far more people. It's a poor country, it's people are poor and it surely is the epitome of a banana republic.
There were many NATO countries who took part on it, and many more who send forces to Afghanistan in order to allow US to attack Iraq.
Russia was by far the most important country in Soviet Union.
When businessman are allowed to put hundreds of millions in elections in order to further their own agenda, it cannot be called democratic at all. Not talking only for the flawed system that the president can have millions of votes less than the other candidate, but I am talking for the direct (and legal) way of throwing millions in elections.
Italy is actually a rich country, being consistently on top 10 of countries with GDP. Russia's GDP per capita is higher than China's for example (and Brazil's). Is China also a poor country?
Sure, the average Russian isn't nowhere as rich as the average yankee or western European, but they hardly are starving (anymore) and since Putin, their economy has been increasing.
100% irrelvant. It was in no way or capacity a NATO operation and vehemently opposed.
So what? They still have inherited a military apparatus that is way bigger than they would have been able to build up themselves, thus filling them with an overstated sense of importance in the world which has held them back for decades at this point
[/QUOTE]When businessman are allowed to put hundreds of millions in elections in order to further their own agenda, it cannot be called democratic at all. Not talking only for the flawed system that the president can have millions of votes less than the other candidate, but I am talking for the direct (and legal) way of throwing millions in elections.[/QUOTE]
Party financing is older than democracy itself. YOu can say against it what you want, but it's not inherently anti-democratic.
[/QUOTE]Italy is actually a rich country, being consistently on top 10 of countries with GDP. Russia's GDP per capita is higher than China's for example (and Brazil's). Is China also a poor country?
Sure, the average Russian isn't nowhere as rich as the average yankee or western European, but they hardly are starving (anymore) and since Putin, their economy has been increasing.[/QUOTE]
Again you don't get the point. Of course Italy is rich. It's still relatively unimportant as an economy on the world stage. You are mixing up things here which aren't connected in any way. Noo, China isn't poor. It's economy is thriving and they basically have unlimited money at their disposal. Russia, on the other hand, has a ruined economy years behind technologically largely focused on ever thinning fossile fuel reserves. That's a very different situation. Are China's people still relatively poor? Yes. Just as Brazilians are. The middle class ins growing, but don't mistake Shanghai or Rio for the countries at whole. Same for Russia.
Add all that up and you end up with a regional power acting like a world power while using foreign policy tools of the 1960's. It's demanding respect it simply does not deserve. Syria is just another symptom of this hazardous strategy.
You've made several valid points in this thread, and presented a strong voice for the other side of a debate that is under-represented on a Western based forum, but this is stretching credulity to the extent I initially assumed it was satire.
You have literally, in two sentences, precluded any possible conclusion no matter occurs other than that Ms. Skripal is now an unreliable witness no matter what.
Or...Russia basically attempted to kill Yulia and her father and failed, thanks to the location of their collapse, the members of the public who called for help and the brilliant care by the NHS. Sure she’s scared, she’s scared of Russians. Do you honestly believe she would want contact with those who tried to kill her!
Perhaps if her cousin wanted to see her she would have been well advised to keep her own counsel, rather than parading on various television channels giving interviews and broadcasting a telephone conversation with Yulia to the entire world.
Yulia has to seriously consider who she can trust in the world and understandably Russian diplomats and relatives who allow themselves to be manipulated by the Russian government are probably pretty low on her list of trusted people right now. Her main priority is the health of herself and her father and staying as safe as possible in the future.
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Well, that's the shark well and truly jumped.
Its not a particularly complicated situation, and one that doesn't require frivolous thought experiments involving fictitious scenarios that don't exist to resolve. Putin fears the spread of democracy because it threatens his dictatorship which has been built a top rampant corruption and organized crime (masquerading of course as nationalism and neo-imperialism). If Ukraine becomes a strong Democratic state with a rule of law, vibrant civil society, etc then it would directly threaten his authoritarian dictatorship by showing Russians its entirely possible for them to do the same, which would end his dictatorship (and probably his life).
OPCW confirm UK findings on nerve agent poisoning of Skripals.
Doesn't anybody have any thoughts on this or is this another conspiracy theory?
She is a Russian citizen and spent most of her life there. If the Russian government wanted to kill her, she'd be dead by now, they wouldn't have had to wait for her to go to England and turn it into an international scandal. And why is she scared of Russians all of a sudden? This supposed attempt on her life happened in UK, not Russia where she, once again, led a pretty normal life up until now. So she lives a normal life, then goes to England and almost gets killed and now she fears Russians? Really?
I'm sure she's being pressured, brainwashed and manipulated by the British intelligence, given her personal circumstances and her family's history and being shut off from the outside world it's quite easy to do in her condition. We don't know what she's being told. We only know that the British government outrageously refused Russian diplomats and her close family any contact with her, which is a gross violation of international laws and her rights as a citizen. And it's quite obvious why. This thing has been a total disaster and an ever growing pack of lies right from the start. From the deadly nerve agent that supposedly can only be produced in Russia but somehow can be treated in a British hospital to full recovery
, to diplomats expulsion without presenting any proof of Russia's involvement to constantly changing stories of where and how the victims were exposed to the poison, etc. etc.We were told by the British authorities that she was still in a coma until a phone conversation with her cousin was played on Russian TV show. You know what she said in that conversation when her cousin said she wants to visit her? "They(UK) won't grant you a visa". Not that she doesn't want her family to visit her, like the recent Scotland Yard statement claims, but that her relative won't be allowed into the country. Interesting, huh? Only after this tape was played out the Brits suddenly changed their story and came out with the news of victims being in recovery. There were no more phone calls though, that was a feck up, but I doubt they'd be that sloppy again. Now I fully expect Yulia Skripal to finally appear before cameras when and only when she's considered coached enough to say what needs to be said according to the script prepared for her.
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False.She is a Russian citizen and spent most of her life there. If the Russian government wanted to kill her, she'd be dead by now, they wouldn't have had to wait for her to go to England and turn it into an international scandal. And why is she scared of Russians all of a sudden? This supposed attempt on her life happened in UK, not Russia where she, once again, lived pretty normal life up until now. So she lives a normal life, then goes to England and almost gets killed and now she fears Russians? Really?
I'm sure she's being pressured, brainwashed and manipulated by British intelligence, given her personal circumstances and her family's history and being shut off from the outside world it's quite easy to do so in her condition. We don't know what she's being told. We only know that the British government outrageously refused Russian diplomats and her close family any contact with her, which is a gross violation of international laws and her rights as a citizen. And it's quite obvious why. This thing has been a total disaster and an ever growing pack of lies right from the start. From the deadly nerve agent that supposedly can only be produced in Russia but somehow can be treated in a British hospital to full recovery
We were told by the British authorities that she was still in a coma until a phone conversation with her cousin was played on Russian TV show. You know what she said in that conversation when her cousin said she wants to visit her? "They(UK) won't grant you a visa". Not that she doesn't want her family to visit her, like the recent Scotland Yard statement claims, but that her relative won't be allowed into the country. Interesting, huh? Only after this tape was played out the Brits suddenly changed their story and came out with the news of victims being in recovery. There were no more phone calls though, that was a feck up, but I doubt they'd be that sloppy again. Now I fully expect Yulia Skripal to finally appear before cameras when and only when she's considered coached enough to say what needs to be said according to the script prepared for her.
I think that this is a very narrow-minded point of view, and is something you expect from the state department. World isn't divided into strictly good and strictly bad.
What will US do tomorrow is Cuba joins Union State or Euroasian Economic Union?
Its a fatuous thought experiment because it simply doesn't exist. Anyone can invent an alternate reality to avoid dealing with the real one. Let's not do that here.
Well, it happened once and we know what happened back then. Does anyone think that it would go differently this time?
The way of vilifying Russia and playing that the Western world are saints after Libya and in particular Iraq fiasco is totally agenda driven. When is the last time Russia has done something as bad as US did in Iraq? We willify Russia for invading Crimea when next to no-one died, but US who was personally possible for the deaths of more than half a million people in Iraq just in order to steal their oil is apparently okay and something that doesn't need to be mentioned. And that we are supposed to believe everything US state department and UK despite that we know that they have been consistently wrong (and lying) for many world matters which happen in parts of world far away from them.
The two situations aren't remotely related to one another. One is an internationally recognized (even today) part of one country getting stolen by another. The other was an intervention to stop a genocide as Qaddafi's forces were marching on Benghazi.
The entire revolt was West-guided, and Libya is significantly worse than it was before. It is hardly Bosna or Kosovo, where US stopped a genocide in one and pre-emptively avoided an another. Things just weren't that bad in Libya before the West decided to spread democracy in Arab world and instead spread ISIS.
What about Iraq which was my main point and you deliberately avoided? How are we to believe intelligence of US and UK after the entire fiasco of WMD which anyone with one and a half cell brains didn't believe back then in the first place, and with time it became obvious? Especially when those sources are just blaming Russia a day or two after the incident happen without showing any proof. At the same time when president Trump is doing everything to get out of Iran deal despite that everyone seems to think that Iran has done its part of the deal, and has hired a warmongering bastard as his national chief adviser.
Come on, it is far more complex scenario than 'evil Russians did it again' which Western media is spreading.
The Qaddafi situation was entirely his fault. Dictators will do whatever they have to in order to survive, including slaughtering large portions of their own population. This is why dicatorships are incompatible with the current and future world order where states need stable democratic systems in order to do business with one another.
Tried my best to listen to the end but started to nod off. Mentally cut off a little when he started to refer to people as “stupid”. There are conspiracy theories floating about regarding most events in the world but sometimes we have to face up to the reality that not everything in life is a conspiracy/false flag event.
He is also arguing the “anyone can make it” line which, although theoretically correct, fails to mention that it is such a dangerous agent that most would probably kill themselves trying to produce it. He may have later referred to the necessary safety measures needing to be in place before production could be attempted but of course I didn’t reach the end of the video. Not sure he has any experience in making nerve agents either.
Again avoided Iraq war and all other points I mentioned.
And no, Qaddafi's situation wasn't entirely his fault. I never had any love for him, but Libya was far better back then than it is now, and there wouldn't have been any revolution is West didn't work on it.
He did indeed. Found him a bit slow to listen to too but I thought it was interesting at least.
There's no need for him to bs unlike the politicians though.
Not true. The Libyan revolution happened directly after the Tunisian one. It was one of many conflicts that started during the arab spring period (including Syria).
You’ve got quite a lot of that wrong (check your info) but I haven’t time to answer it now but will do later. Meanwhile pop back to past tweets from your Embassy and then you’ll have a better understanding of the timeline of events.She is a Russian citizen and spent most of her life there. If the Russian government wanted to kill her, she'd be dead by now, they wouldn't have had to wait for her to go to England and turn it into an international scandal. And why is she scared of Russians all of a sudden? This supposed attempt on her life happened in UK, not Russia where she, once again, led a pretty normal life up until now. So she lives a normal life, then goes to England and almost gets killed and now she fears Russians? Really?
I'm sure she's being pressured, brainwashed and manipulated by the British intelligence, given her personal circumstances and her family's history and being shut off from the outside world it's quite easy to do in her condition. We don't know what she's being told. We only know that the British government outrageously refused Russian diplomats and her close family any contact with her, which is a gross violation of international laws and her rights as a citizen. And it's quite obvious why. This thing has been a total disaster and an ever growing pack of lies right from the start. From the deadly nerve agent that supposedly can only be produced in Russia but somehow can be treated in a British hospital to full recovery
We were told by the British authorities that she was still in a coma until a phone conversation with her cousin was played on Russian TV show. You know what she said in that conversation when her cousin said she wants to visit her? "They(UK) won't grant you a visa". Not that she doesn't want her family to visit her, like the recent Scotland Yard statement claims, but that her relative won't be allowed into the country. Interesting, huh? Only after this tape was played out the Brits suddenly changed their story and came out with the news of victims being in recovery. There were no more phone calls though, that was a feck up, but I doubt they'd be that sloppy again. Now I fully expect Yulia Skripal to finally appear before cameras when and only when she's considered coached enough to say what needs to be said according to the script prepared for her.
And we obviously believe that Arab spring was totally natural, not West-initiated, and that the only interest of Western countries (mostly US, UK and France) was to spread democracy in those countries, and to stop genocides.
Yep, US interest in Iran is also just to stop a dictatorial regime and to spread democracy there.
Oh, again avoided Iraq war.
Yeah sure. US also wasn't to be blamed for Iraq war. They just wanted those WMD out of a dictator hand.
Let's spread some democracy in Iran next.
Seems the next disinformation angle is to try and discredit Yulia as a witness. Predictable, if crass.
Aleksandr Dugin recently visited the Netherlands for a debate, which led to me reading up on quite a few things. Obviously he doesn’t even deserve 5% of the credit he gets for his influence on Putin and the Kremlin, something which he admits himself by the way.
His views do however give some interesting insight in the thinking and reasoning of Russia, or the Russian population. Loads of thing are really not as simple as they are made out to be, like for example has been happening on this last page.
Weirdly enough this simplification of Russian motives does have the correct underlying sentiments imo. The hate against the West and USA in particular is very real, both from the people in charge, and I think more importantly, the Russian population.
Also, Syria. I really get the impression they are never ever going to give up on Assad. They see this conflict as the ultimate chance to proof USA isn’t the real leader of the world anymore.
His views do however give some interesting insight in the thinking and reasoning of Russia, or the Russian population. Loads of thing are really not as simple as they are made out to be, like for example has been happening on this last page.
Weirdly enough this simplification of Russian motives does have the correct underlying sentiments imo. The hate against the West and USA in particular is very real, both from the people in charge, and I think more importantly, the Russian population.
Also, Syria. I really get the impression they are never ever going to give up on Assad. They see this conflict as the ultimate chance to proof USA isn’t the real leader of the world anymore.
I can't believe that the KGB bodged this up so badly. First, they had him in a Siberian Gulag for 10 years and couldn't get rid of him then they manage to let him slip through there fingers in a spy swap and now years later they bungle an assassination attempt on British soil just before the Russian elections and an upcoming international spectacle of hosting the world cup.
They just don't make 'em like they used to
They just don't make 'em like they used to
Just watched it. What he says matches with what the reports are saying.
There is no way that the agencies in Britton could identify that it came from Russia without having a sample which to compare it with. This would mean that they too would have had access to use this stuff directly themselves. It's a catch 22 for them.
Also this matches with what the British laboratory said in an official statement that they "have not verified the precise source". Here is wha they said.(source Sky news).
“We have not verified the precise source,” the executive, Gary Aitkenhead, told Sky News. Mr. Aitkenhead said his laboratory, the Defense Science and Technology Laboratory, had confirmed that the poison was Novichok, or from its family of nerve agents, and that it was of military grade.
“We provided the scientific information to the government, who have then used a number of other sources to piece together the conclusions they have come to,” Mr. Aitkenhead said. He said it was “not our job to say where it actually was manufactured.”
It is also telling that the home-office deleted a tweet saying they knew it was Russia right after that...Boris Johnson is a vacuous cnut.
So Russia can do whatever it wants because the US/UK invaded Iraq 15 years ago? People have died in the Ukrainian conflict and Putin also killed lots of people in his invasion of and subsequent dirty war in Chechnya. Plus the unknown number of people killed in Syria. But that’s all irrelevant anyway - two people were poisoned in Salisbury and the balance of probabilities points to Russia. Your whataboutery argument is an endorsement of Russia’s information war, supported by stooges like Assange, to spread a culture where facts are entirely subjective and therefore no one can ever be held accountable for anything because everyone swims in the same sewer.
It's more that Russia can do whatever it wants within reason because they have the world's second most deadly military. Who's up for invading them and bringing about a thermonuclear winter?
Will have to answer your points separately.
An obvious response is that if the Russians had killed her in Russia (rather than the UK) then wouldn’t it have been the Russians “wot did it”. Absolutely no chance then of blaming it on anyone else.
As the most likely people to have attempted to kill her and her father (he betrayed Russia and other agents) are the Russians, and as the British have worked extremely hard to save both their lives is the answer to your question not obvious. If we had wanted them both dead they would not have recovered. If we had wanted them both dead we would have had all the time in the world to plan it and we would have done a much better job. We would have ensured they collapsed at home. You have to remember that UK operatives are a class or two above their Russian counterparts.
As for the International scandal bit that only happened because they collapsed in a public place, were rushed to hospital and put on life support. Cue....full and rapid investigation as medics recognised use of a possible nerve agent. Many medics are trained to recognise that and have been for a good few years now as part of the protocols in place for chemical and biological attacks, which all hospitals have to put in place.
As I have pointed out in other posts if they had collapsed whilst driving the car it would have probably been put down to injuries caused in the crash and if they had colllapsed at home it would probably have been a while before they were found and post mortems carried out. Would they have tested them for nerve agent poisoning....probably not.
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They also have a tinpot economy (their currency dropped another 15% last week) and a system dependent entirely on patronage. They play a weak hand very well but it is ridiculous to buy into Putin’s superpower reborn nonsense.
Spot on.
They have a stockpile of over seven thousand nuclear warheads. The largest in the world. That's the crux of the issue.
As in the Cold War. When the economic cost of maintaining some kind of military parity was so high that the system rotted. It’s the same situation - any direct confrontation would be madness but, constrict them enough (and try to hit the families of the gilded inner circle), then more and more people will ask what’s the point. Plus Putin is not getting any younger, increasing the possibility of regime in-fighting.
Very well said.