SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Images of death are a reality with COVID, over 2m deaths globally would attest to that id say. Not just a scare tactic but a proven reality. This could happen to anyone.

I’m not sure what agenda you are trying to push here @LazyRed-Ninja but I suspect it’s more than just for discussion points in your group as you would have us believe
 
golden_blunder said:
Images of death are a reality with COVID, over 2m deaths globally would attest to that id say. Not just a scare tactic but a proven reality. This could happen to anyone.

I’m not sure what agenda you are trying to push here @LazyRed-Ninja but I suspect it’s more than just for discussion points in your group as you would have us believe
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Agenda? i respectfully disagree. Corona was an unprecedented global health crisis, with unprecedented measures. I did not claim that governments implemented these unprecedented measures with evil intent, whatsoever.

I did state which i deem as a fair question, how far can a government go using fear for compliance, not specifically related to Corona, but in politics as general. Furthermore, i did say that the lockdowns came with great consequences. I don't see anything wrong with this statement, considering its not proposed as an argument against the public health strategy? are we not allowed to say that lockdowns resulted in negative effects? without it being used as an argument against the chosen public health strategy.
 
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Rado_N said:
How are people still spending time arguing with that guy?
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That guy that says that vaccination is vital to get this pandemic under control ? What 'exactly' is the 'argument'? I've not proposed that lock downs are done with evil intent, nor did i propose that the chosen health strategy is wrong. I've discussed natural immunity and immunity through vaccination and never once said that natural immunity is better. Its not an either or, considering that you need a functioning immune system to begin with for vaccines to be effective.

That is all. we're all in this together and in times of polarization and hardship people need to stand behind science and medicine and listen to experts who know more then us! I do want to emphasis that one should always use critical analysis in stead of blind following another one's opinion.
 
Mask mandate back in effect in my county starting Thursday. We are at 68% fully vaccinated and 95% aged 65+ fully vaccinated, but the trendline is starting to go more and more vertical each day. Really worried about what I am seeing with the 0-11 populations. Those cohorts are already almost at 50% of their winter peak while the adult population is around 10-20%.
 
Tornado sirens went off at around 3 today. Nothing like combining multiple classes into the floor in the same corner of a single room during a pandemic.

For some of the kids it was their first day back in school since March of 2020.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
Like I said, I'm heavily biased. I don't think the lockdowns were implemented as a power trip but I do think some governments will be very reluctant to let them go.
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Here our Federal.and State governments would love to let them go as soon as possible but can't as letting go people die is far more frowned upon.

Even WA who are the most reluctant to unlock when wecare better vaccinated are mainly taking this stance on the back of a landslide electoral victory based on how well they kept everyone safe - basically covid free through the whole pandemic. They want to open up but will lag slightly - that is all.
 
LazyRed-Ninja said:
That guy that says that vaccination is vital to get this pandemic under control ? What 'exactly' is the 'argument'? I've not proposed that lock downs are done with evil intent, nor did i propose that the chosen health strategy is wrong. I've discussed natural immunity and immunity through vaccination and never once said that natural immunity is better. Its not an either or, considering that you need a functioning immune system to begin with for vaccines to be effective.

That is all. we're all in this together and in times of polarization and hardship people need to stand behind science and medicine and listen to experts who know more then us! I do want to emphasis that one should always use critical analysis in stead of blind following another one's opinion.
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You’ve contradicted yourself there. I have a medical degree so I wouldn’t dream of trying to tell an astrophysicist I intended to use “critical analysis” on every piece of advice they give me relevant to their field of expertise. Because I don’t have the academic background to make any sense of the evidence base on which they base their opinions.

This whole “do your own research” mentality completely misses the point when it’s being used by people that don’t have the qualifications you need to do that research properly. So you can’t simultaneously listen to experts and do your own “critical analysis”.

Don’t take this too personally but in my discussions with you so far (in this thread and via PM) it couldn’t be more obvious that you lack a lot of the most basic tools you need to property understand what’s being discussed. Never mind challenge people who are way more qualified than you are. This doesn’t mean you’re slow or stupid, or poorly educated. It just means you haven’t had the very specific training required to understand the extremely complex concepts relevant to the issues here.
 
LazyRed-Ninja said:
It does make it different in the sense that the consequences of lockdowns and covid are not only death. They have other severe consequences which did in fact happen such as businesses going bankrupt, increase in mental health, child/abuse etc. These are the direct results of models predicting worse case scenario's, with fear as the most important tool to create compliance. The question i have with this, besides the ethical side of it, where is the fine line? There are many examples to mention where politicians used fear for predictions that didn't happen to suit a certain interest/agenda of kind.

quote:
'Reliance on fear for public health messaging now could further erode trust in public health officials and scientists at a critical juncture.
The nation desperately needs a strategy that can help break through pandemic denialism and through the politically charged environment, with its threatening and at times hysterical rhetoric that has created opposition to sound public health measures.Even if ethically warranted, fear-based tactics may be dismissed as just one more example of political manipulation and could carry as much risk as benefit.

Instead, public health officials should boldly urge and, as they have during other crisis periods in the past, emphasize what has been sorely lacking: consistent, credible communication of the science at the national level.

full article: https://news.osu.edu/why-using-fear-to-promote-covid-19-vaccination-and-mask-wearing-could-backfire/
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In AU the main economic damage has occurred when outbreaks occurred. Lockdowns have been very successful atpreventi g of like it g outbreaks. Lockdowns have been a massive net economic benefit.

Where we have failed, the current NSW outbreak in particular, has been due to not locking g down hard or fast enough.
 
golden_blunder said:
Images of death are a reality with COVID, over 2m deaths globally would attest to that id say. Not just a scare tactic but a proven reality. This could happen to anyone.

I’m not sure what agenda you are trying to push here @LazyRed-Ninja but I suspect it’s more than just for discussion points in your group as you would have us believe
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I think we are officially past 4 million deaths and as India alone has over 4 million excess deaths I'd say that is probably a huge underestimate.
 
Wibble said:
I think we are officially past 4 million deaths and as India alone has over 4 million excess deaths I'd say that is probably a huge underestimate.
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Wow shows you the last time I checked the numbers. Makes my point even valid. People should be scared to the point they use caution.
 
LazyRed-Ninja said:
there were articles coming out of countries who used the ‘worse case’ scenario’s to install fear in order for justification of severe measurements during the lockdown.

this created a Pandora box of discussion. Is it ethically and morally justified to intentionally create fear for more acceptance of the strict policies or is it as they say in war and love all is allowed.
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This is a pandemic that has so far killed over 4 million people (likely far far higher as excess deaths are much higher despite fewer flu deaths) so almost all countries didn't prepare for anywhere near a worse case scenario.

People should be afraid. I'd say a lack of fear has contributed to this shit show significantly. A government's duty is to keep people safe. Pretending that all is well to avoid "project fear" dies the opposite.
 
Carolina Red said:
Tornado sirens went off at around 3 today. Nothing like combining multiple classes into the floor in the same corner of a single room during a pandemic.

For some of the kids it was their first day back in school since March of 2020.
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Oh Christ. Rock and a hard place
 
LazyRed-Ninja said:
i’d argue there difference here is that encouraging seatbelts and prevent smoking is a different then total lockdowns, with results of economic desparity of business, increased mental health problems, child abuse, divorce rates etc.

the worse case scenario for driving without seatbelts and smoking could ultimately be death, that is a fair logical implication to propose. COVID has that same property and even more (in terms of consequences) and I don’t see politicans/experts saying that it was ‘unethical’ to do so in the two examples you mentioned.
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When people are too stupid to protect themselves government has a duty to act. So in that sense all covid reduction measures imposed are the same as smoking and seatbelt laws. For the same reason universal vaccination should be actively encouraged by governments with both incentives and punishments.

We can then get back to a situation where people can have as many mass protests as they like, and I'll be there for many of them, but until then people should stay home and stop trying to harm the rest of us. The world is a way off being out of this pandemic at the moment.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You’ve contradicted yourself there. I have a medical degree so I wouldn’t dream of trying to tell an astrophysicist I intended to use “critical analysis” on every piece of advice they give me relevant to their field of expertise. Because I don’t have the academic background to make any sense of the evidence base on which they base their opinions.

This whole “do your own research” mentality completely misses the point when it’s being used by people that don’t have the qualifications you need to do that research properly. So you can’t simultaneously listen to experts and do your own “critical analysis”.

Don’t take this too personally but in my discussions with you so far (in this thread and via PM) it couldn’t be more obvious that you lack a lot of the most basic tools you need to property understand what’s being discussed. Never mind challenge people who are way more qualified than you are. This doesn’t mean you’re slow or stupid, or poorly educated. It just means you haven’t had the very specific training required to understand the extremely complex concepts relevant to the issues here.
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You have associated the highlighted parts. They are meant to be understood separately. The ones who have the qualifications in their
respective fields ought to be listened to, considering they have studied their specific field and hence have more knowledge then those who haven't.

The other part about critical analysis, could be interpret as a general thumb rule in life in general when one wants to learn more. You therefore go
to legitimate sources for a better understanding, rather then lets say an average individual with an unsubstantiated opinion. You have understood those two statements as associative, which is not how they should be interpret. Your argument is therefore invalid, since the premise of it is that you associated two sentences together which were not meant to be understood together. You listen to expert(s), and you use critical analysis when you want to study a certain subject, by differentiating legitimate and illegitimate sources.

I'd propose that the overwhelming majority of the posters on this thread don't have a 'medical qualification', does that mean they are not entitled to have an opinion? Sure, when statements are made that go against consensus within the scientific fields, that ought to be corrected which is the rational thing to do.

I also respectfully disagree with the statement of lacking the basic tools to understand the topic discussed. I've cited legitimate sources on this thread linking to the WHO and other studies to provide another perspective, not as an generally accepted consensus in regards to that specific subject. It would also highly arrogant of one person to say that they are fully equipped to understood the ins and outs of this broad topic of Covid. Hence, the tools are to cite sources and to interact with fellow posters to get a better understanding through dialogue. I've also emphasized that vaccination is vital to get this pandemic under control, which is a consensus and accepted in general. I therefore fail to see where i haven't understood 'the basics.

The other subject discussed was in regards to natural immunity and through vaccination and i've cited sources , without proposing that conclusion as an absolute truth, that would be unscientific. Don't take this personally, but in my discussions so far it couldnt be more obvious that you at times (on many points times) havent understood the essence of my argument. That doesn't mean your slow, stupid, or poorly educated! (little bit of banter).

Nonetheless, life is about being better not bitter. Having an open mind and the willingness to learn should be a requirement of any open, rational and
logical conversation!

You do have to forgive my on me english at times, it isnt my first language :wenger:
 
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LazyRed-Ninja said:
You have associated the highlighted parts. They are meant to be understood separately. The ones who have the qualifications in their
respective fields ought to be listened to, considering they have studied their specific field and hence have more knowledge then those who haven't.

The other part about critical analysis, could be interpret as a general thumb rule in life in general when one wants to learn more. You therefore go
to legitimate sources for a better understanding, rather then lets say an average individual with an unsubstantiated opinion. You have understood those two statements as associative, which is not how they should be interpret. Your argument is therefore invalid, since the premise of it is that you associated two sentences together which were not meant to be understood together. You listen to expert(s), and you use critical analysis when you want to study a certain subject, by differentiating legitimate and illegitimate sources.

I'd propose that the overwhelming majority of the posters on this thread don't have a 'medical qualification', does that mean they are not entitled to have an opinion? Sure, when statements are made that go against consensus within the scientific fields, that ought to be corrected which is the rational thing to do.

I also respectfully disagree with the statement of lacking the basic tools to understand the topic discussed. I've cited legitimate sources on this thread linking to the WHO and other studies to provide another perspective, not as an generally accepted consensus in regards to that specific subject. It would also highly arrogant of one person to say that they are fully equipped to understood the ins and outs of this broad topic of Covid. Hence, the tool to cite sources and to interact with fellow posters to get a better understanding through dialogue. I've also emphasized that vaccination is vital to get this pandemic under control, which is a consensus and accepted in general. I therefore fail to see where i haven't understood 'the basics.

The other subject discussed was in regards to natural immunity and legitimate and i've cited sources to substantiate that claim, without proposing that conclusion as an absolute truth, that would be unscientific. Don't take this personally, but in my discussions so far it couldnt be more obvious at that you at many points haven't understood the essence of my argument. That doesn't mean your slow, stupid, or poorly educated! (little bit of banter).

Nonetheless, life is about being better not bitter. Having an open mind and the willingness to learn should be a requirement of any open, rational and
logical conversation!

You do have to forgive my on me english at times, it isnt my first language :wenger:
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Are you trying to bore us to death?
 
Wibble said:
And if he was?
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That would be in line with what we already know.

quote:
'Breakthrough infections are to be expected with any vaccine. Fortunately, breakthrough Covid cases tend to be mild and asymptomatic.
Even with regards to the delta variant, most fully vaccinated people who test positive don’t have symptoms, the World Health Organization said July 13.''

Abbott has no symptoms so that would be in line with current data that breakthrough cases tent to be mild and asymptomatic.
 
Wibble said:
Here our Federal.and State governments would love to let them go as soon as possible but can't as letting go people die is far more frowned upon.

Even WA who are the most reluctant to unlock when wecare better vaccinated are mainly taking this stance on the back of a landslide electoral victory based on how well they kept everyone safe - basically covid free through the whole pandemic. They want to open up but will lag slightly - that is all.
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That's good to hear and not unexpected as you don't have a nanny state party in power right now. I don't mean to imply that we shouldn't have strict conditions as we're still in the middle of this thing and at a very uncertain point but when it's all said and done I don't have a lot of faith in some parties willingly letting go of things they've enacted in response to the pandemic.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
That's good to hear and not unexpected as you don't have a nanny state party in power right now. I don't mean to imply that we shouldn't have strict conditions as we're still in the middle of this thing and at a very uncertain point but when it's all said and done I don't have a lot of faith in some parties willingly letting go of things they've enacted in response to the pandemic.
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Oddly we do but those who normally love that sort of stuff (NSW and Federal government mainly) have been the least enthusiastic for lockdowns as their mates at the top end of town don't care about deaths as long as their cash registers keep going (they entirely miss the irony that lockdowns etc have enriched them enormously).
 
Wibble said:
Oddly we do but those who normally love that sort of stuff (NSW and Federal government mainly) have been the least enthusiastic for lockdowns as their mates at the top end of town don't care about deaths as long as their cash registers keep going (they entirely miss the irony that lockdowns etc have enriched them enormously).
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My bad I had the wrong idea about Scotty from Marketing!
 
We're back on lockdown level 4 here in NZ. One case in Auckland yesterday and the same day they put the entire country on the highest level LD. Have to respect that kinda decisive leadership.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
My bad I had the wrong idea about Scotty from Marketing!
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#scottyfrommarketing loves a nanny state as long as it doesn't nanny the top end of town. The unemployed, refugees (especially if brown), single mthers, Aboriginal people and all the usual targets he loves to nanny. Polluters, miners, billionaires etc etc - they don't need regulation (or taxing really) as they are "people like us". I hate him with a heated passion the temperature of the surface of the sun.

It is the State Premiers who have generally been the adults in the room during this pandemic. Even Gladys in NSW, who has eventually totally fecked us trying to hedge her bets by not going hard or early enough in this outbreak, is a million time better than #scottyfrommarketing.

#scottyfrommarketing during a crisis (assuming he doesn't go to Hawaii for a holiday)
homer-simpson-bush-gif.gif
 
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SmashedHombre said:
We're back on lockdown level 4 here in NZ. One case in Auckland yesterday and the same day they put the entire country on the highest level LD. Have to respect that kinda decisive leadership.
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The tyranny of the minority. Terrifying...

If there are 3 cases, I guess the solution the local government would propose would be to urge all the population to stay at home 24/24 7/7 and wear a face covering at home, especially when it comes to sleeping...
 
SmashedHombre said:
We're back on lockdown level 4 here in NZ. One case in Auckland yesterday and the same day they put the entire country on the highest level LD. Have to respect that kinda decisive leadership.
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Agreed. If only Gladys had done this 7 weeks ago we would have been out of lockdown by now and covid free again.
 
Ecstatic said:
The tyranny of the minority. Terrifying...

If there are 3 cases, I guess the solution the local government would propose would be to urge all the population to stay at home 24/24 7/7 and wear a face covering at home, especially when it comes to sleeping...
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Erm????
images


If serious what are you on about?
 
SmashedHombre said:
We're back on lockdown level 4 here in NZ. One case in Auckland yesterday and the same day they put the entire country on the highest level LD. Have to respect that kinda decisive leadership.
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Do you? NZ handled the early pandemic beautifully but now? Much of the world is open and back to normal whilst NZ's borders remain closed indefinitely and vaccination rates are the lowest in the developed world. Continually shutting everything down every time there is an outbreak is not a long term strategy.
 
Ecstatic said:
The tyranny of the minority. Terrifying...

If there are 3 cases, I guess the solution the local government would propose would be to urge all the population to stay at home 24/24 7/7 and wear a face covering at home, especially when it comes to sleeping...
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New Zealand have a grand total of 26 deaths during the 18 months of pandemic, the UK had 170 yesterday alone.

In the last 18 months, New Zealand has been running pretty much business as usual internally with very few lock downs, mass gatherings allowed - sporting events, music events, you name it.

Locking down hard and early breaks the chain and means you don’t end up locking down for months on end.
 
11101 said:
Do you? NZ handled the early pandemic beautifully but now? Much of the world is open and back to normal whilst NZ's borders remain closed indefinitely and vaccination rates are the lowest in the developed world. Continually shutting everything down every time there is an outbreak is not a long term strategy.
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It is the very best strategy until the population is hugely vaccinated. I'd hate to get to the place much of the world is were hundreds of deaths a day are considered acceptable.
 
The only major criticism you could make of NZ is they didn't order enough vaccine early enough. With Australia you can add not locking down NSW hard enough 7 week ago.

That said any chance of me ever leaving Australia (or possibly NZ) has now gone as I now don't trust anywhere else will keep me safe next time there is a pandemic. And there may well be a next time.
 
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