That's 5000 people demonstrating in Stuttgart today. This comment from the police made me laugh: "By and large, the demonstrators kept to the rules of distance."
If they allow that, they may as well let people in football stadiums again.
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
That's 5000 people demonstrating in Stuttgart today. This comment from the police made me laugh: "By and large, the demonstrators kept to the rules of distance."
If they allow that, they may as well let people in football stadiums again.
The difference lies in how those deaths are tested and compiled. ROI's figures include hospital deaths, community deaths, deaths at home and "probable" coronavirus deaths. Which hasn't been the case in NI, which until recently was only testing in hospitals.
This thread goes through some of the comparison and difficulty in comparing stats directly:
Apparently he’s on the spectrum. Being an actuary means there’s pretty much a 50:50 chance of this!
Apologies if this is a dumb question but if someone is an asymptomatic carrier (for as long as five weeks in the case of Dybala) then surely asking people to take their temperatures before travelling to work won't be enough to stop another potential wave? I get that checking peoples temperature will reduce the numbers but it doesn't seem entirely safe.
Not a dumb question at all. Asymptomatic transmission is the elephant in the room when it comes to this idea that really aggressive testing and tracing can stop transmission after lockdown. You can’t test and trace people who have no idea they’re infected.
This was raised with the case of that youtuber as well about 4-5 weeks ago.
There's a lot to be investigated such as :
a. Is testing positive after such a long time without symptoms = still contagious
b. What's actually the medium long term thing with this virus - does recovering from it mean you get rid of it for good, or does it stay dormant in your body at a low enough viral count
Those excess mortality stats posted by Ed Conway show NI barely out of the normal range for excess deaths so wouldn’t it be reasonable to only expect a modest rise in NI’s overall stats? I know some people had a problem with the expression of his data though.
When they say that a vaccine's efficacy is 70% - does that mean that the other 30% have the same distribution of symptoms/outcomes as someone who is non-vaccinated? Or will mortality rates be reduced on the 30%?
How would a group of doctors know how many tests are carried out nationally?
That’s a good question but I’d be fairly sure that the other 30% have been infected, without taking severity of disease into account. Although the final report would have all sorts of detail on severity in the two arms.
Yes that's fair. We have had it easy in contrast to you guys. Maybe that's why people here are getting frustrated, because we haven't suffered the same pain to our health system or per capita so the full effect of it, if left untamed, is lost on a lot of us.
Like I said before, people are easily influenced (brainwashed). They'll simply change the messaging now to influence people to do what they want next - travel to work on public transport with masks (the ones they've been saying are useless) with social distancing etc.
You haven’t suffered the same sort of strict lockdown as Italy but you have suffered a very similar death toll.
That’s something I’ve noticed about the UK media. They immersed us with footage of crying Italian doctors and reports of a completely overwhelmed health service in Italy, when their crisis was at its peak. But now an epidemic of almost exactly the same scale is happening in the UK it’s getting reported on in a far less emotive manner.
Why do you think they want to do that? Its literally the only way to fight this thing.
The only way to gain the publics trust is proof you are conpetent at tracing and that the cases and deaths are under control.
You cant have this shitshow about fudging numbers and lack of ppe then expect the public to come out in their droves.
Our health service in the UK hasn't been overwhelmed at all, it's barely been whelmed. We've got huge field hospitals lying empty and staff I know (not in Covid wards) have been playing cards to pass the time in their shifts as it's so quiet.
The health service didn’t get battered in the same way here though. There were stories of dead bodies not being collected from houses for days in Italy and pictures of really shoddy make-shift overspill hospitals and so on, things like that. That hasn’t happened here. The Nightingale hospitals have barely been used, some haven’t at all and they may all be decommissioned in the next few days altogether. One thing they were successful in was expanding the capacity at hospitals and in other related services to cope better.
We have every right to be worried when the government has lied to us multiple times and handled this shockingly in many ways. From not taking it seriously enough in the first place to senior people that were involved in the advertisements shown to be ignoring the rules to just yesterday when they lied about tests. The whole thing has meant I'm doubting everything and my mental state regarding the situation isn't great.
I have friends working in ITU departments in the Uk. They absolutely feel overwhelmed. They’ve never seen anything like it. They’ll probably be traumatised for life. You might be better able to bury your dead than Italy but the impact to your health service (and health workers) has been similar. Look at the number of dead. You’re very close to the Italian toll and several weeks behind them. You will 100% end up with a much worse first wave, unless they have some sort of massive outbreak in the next few weeks.
I think it might be down to the Italian outbreak being restricted to one region for so long. Which meant they had a small number of hospitals pushed a long way past breaking point? Which made good tv for the 24 hour news vultures.
Still, though, the tone of coverage in the Uk is strangely bloodless in comparison to how they covered Italy when you consider they’re reporting on an outbreak that is already on the brink of passing out the Italian experience. Which is presumably how you can make a comment like the one above, telling someone from Italy how you’ve “had it easy” compared to them. When that’s not true at all.
Im not atall saying their shouldn't be appropriate caution but things have gone well too far the other way in my opinion.
I'm Irish!
You could have read the post Penna was responding to
I'm Irish!
You could have read the post Penna was responding to
That was me getting you and @Classical Mechanic mixed up. Again.
Is that even true though? Those excess death figures in the FT show that Italy’s excess deaths are the highest in Europe by a distance don‘t they? Excess deaths in Lombardy are at 3 times the level of deaths attributed to Covid there officially according to the article. This would explain why we haven’t scene the kind of devastation that came out from there, in part at least.
There wasn’t even that much coverage of Italy here either. People applauded Sky News when they did cover some of the more shocking stuff some people felt the press were not taking it seriously.
No one is saying that they NHS haven’t been overwhelmed and suffered. It’s literally in the press everyday. Where do you think the massive outpouring of gratitude and support for the NHS comes from? Every third house on every street has tributes in their windows the NHS.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/hea...king-down-coronavirus-frontline-a4430196.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tressed-anxious-usual-coronavirus-crisis.html
https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/06/fron...onavirus-battle-inside-nhs-hospital-12518964/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000hjq4
.
Aren‘t the Nightingale hospitals set up for a very specific kind of treatment? Can they even be effectively used as he wants?
I didn't.
were they designed specifically for coronavirus patients? Or could they be used for non coronavirus patients. Bear in mind they have been reports of people who have other ailments not going to hospital
Seem a bit of a waste
To be fair hardly any of the press are discussing the government's huge amount of feck ups during this so their comms team must be doing something right are keeping it all quiet.
Because they are. There are degrees of it and stacking bodies in ice rinks or choosing not to treat the elderly is just a greater degree of it.
Yes, the government has already said as much, it's great that they have been barely used so far, but no doubt some of the press will deem them a waste of money.
I’m not all that immersed in the Uk press, so might have got that wrong. Was just a bit stunned when you said you’ve had it easy compared to Italy. You’re usually pretty sensible so that seemed an odd thing to say. I then jumped to the conclusion this was influenced by the fact that what little Uk media I have watched has been relatively laid back. So it’s possible I’m adding two plus two to get 5.
Re your first para, excess deaths in Italy and England/Wales very similar. Slightly higher in Italy but that’s to be expected as they’re a few weeks ahead of the Uk. It’s actually interesting how similar the Uk and Italy have tracked each other on every available metric throughout.
Wait what? That’s two people?
According to figures that the Italian media use 28,710 people have died in Italy
https://lab.gedidigital.it/gedi-vis...talia/?ref=RHPPTP-BH-I249998895-C12-P3-S1.8-L
According to the UK government's figures 28,131 people have died in the UK.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public
I'm not sure if the Italian source is an official number but there's only a difference of 579 deaths between the two.
And how many people already dead in Italy before the first UK death?
I didn’t say they’ve had it easy in fairness, just that we’ve not had the level of overwhelming that they had in Italy and same type of really shocking stories. Only some alt-right nutters think that the NHS are tossing it off. The numbers have been terrible for sure and we’ll be one of the worst affected in the world but the services that have copped for it in the end for it have managed it well.
Ok. Fair enough. Wouldn’t disagree with any of that. Seems to have been some mistakes made at a Public Health level but the NHS itself has functioned very well. It’s always been an excellent health service, to be fair.
I was talking about excess deaths, it looks at overall deaths compared to the usual average. It’s thought to be more telling as it better discounts errors in reporting or possible cover-ups or cooking of the books etc by governments. I didn’t notice the * for Italy initially, it appears it only covers Lombardy I think.
https://www.ft.com/content/6bd88b7d-3386-4543-b2e9-0d5c6fac846c
Are the nightingale hospitals even staffed? You can build hospitals, but if it means you're going to have to split your nursing/doctor resource between them they'll be quite hesitant to use them even if the other hospitals are running overcapacity.