SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Maticmaker said:
Its OK no problem, you don't owe me any apology everyone on here has a right to their views, I understand what you were fishing for.

One thing I hope comes out of this Covid-19 is that the workers who are doing the so called unskilled, low paid jobs; the Van Drivers, the Care home staff, as well as those low paid staff in the NHS, finally get a decent wage. I'm sure those who are the front line troops now, appreciate the community clapping and the warm words, but I'm sure they would be much happier with a regular hours and a properly paid job.
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Couldn't agree more, it's annoyed me for years how in London they talk about the need for housing for key workers. Which didn't seem to include the guys on the underground and buses, the supermarket staff, the hole in the road fillers and a thousand jobs low paid council workers do that nobody notices. They don't need housing apparently.
 
Maticmaker said:
Its OK no problem, you don't owe me any apology everyone on here has a right to their views, I understand what you were fishing for.

One thing I hope comes out of this Covid-19 is that the workers who are doing the so called unskilled, low paid jobs; the Van Drivers, the Care home staff, as well as those low paid staff in the NHS, finally get a decent wage. I'm sure those who are the front line troops now, appreciate the community clapping and the warm words, but I'm sure they would be much happier with a regular hours and a properly paid job.
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I hope so too. People need a proper basic wage that you can realistically live on.
 
No surprise that the “Stay at home” messaging is about to be dropped here in the UK. Not sure if there’ll be a new slogan but I think the new messaging is going to be about social distancing and “getting Britain working again”
 
balaks said:
If we didn't lock down then then we would have literally thousands of people dieing every single day at this point instead of hundreds not only because of exponential growth of virus infections but with the NHS being overwhelmed completely and many more people dieing due to not being able to access care. Thankfully the measures taken have ensured this has not happened but things are still extremely serious. 30,000 deaths over a few months is absolutely a national tragedy. This sucks, it's fecking horrible but it needs to happen right now. Your question 'who are we saving now?' is the many hundreds of people who didn't and won't die every day because of the measures put in place - just because you dont see it doesnt mean it's a real thing.

We will lessen things a bit but life will not become back to how things were for probably a few years at least - this is something we just need to accept and learn to live with unfortunately. Personally I'm absolutely dreading next winter unless we can get progress in treatments and testing.
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I get that and I get why we had a lockdown in the short term because the NHS was at risk of being overwhelmed...all of this that you are saying though, the actual science doesn't back any of it up. THe science suggests that in the longer term the economic impacts and the continuing effect of the virus itself will mean the measures we've taken here could well have cost lives rather than saved them. With science you don't just take one variable and ignore literally everything else. You would factor in the people who ARE dying because they can't get care, who are dying because of stress, mental health, not being looked after, loss of income. You factor in the many more who will fall under the same umbrella due to the economic impact of the biggest recession in history (which has been caused primarily by lockdown, not the virus). You factor in the percentage of people who have died of corona virus who would have been likely to die within the same time frame as these economic factors (what you will see is the expected death numbers will drop well below average when the virus subsides)...how many fit and healthy people have died of corona virus in the UK? I don't have an actual definite number but the figures I have seen have only been in the hundreds. You have to factor in the effect on the quiility of life for the people you are most aiming to protect. It's no good saving someone if you make the rest of their life lonely and miserable, because you aren't going to make them live forever. We'd all live longer on average for example if none of us ever got in a car again (over 25,000 less deaths or serious injuries a year straight away). We'd all live longer if none of us drunk alcohol ever again...where do you draw the line with stuff like that?

It's actually quite ridiculous how blinkered and tunnel visioned people's views are on this. The reality is we are dealing with a virus that has a mortality rate of less than 1%....and we have CREATED a global catastrophe that will take many years to fix in order to "fight" the virus...and actually when you look at the number of deaths against the mortality and infection rate it's seriously up for debate how effective these tactics have even been in a lot of countries. Look at the deaths in Germany compared to here...that is an example of an effective way to combat an epidemic vs an unsuccesful one. You can dress up the numbers how you want but there's no way that 30,000 deaths (and counting) looks like an effective strategy at this point. A strategy that causes so much damage and effect sliterally everyone so severely should be with the aim of MAXIMISING the number of people you save...not whatever half arsed attempt at something the UK have made can be called. We still can't even test people in care homes...the exact people this is meant to be to help protect.

When you go on about us saving thousands of lives a day, what are you even basing this on? There are problems here that will take years and years to resolve. There is the impending second wave which we will at present be in no shape at all to cope with. There is the fact that all these at risk people who have been locked up for 3 months, aren't suddenly going to turn healthy or no longer be at risk when you let them back out. A significant number of them will be much less healthy than before. What are you going to do towards the end of the year and every winter from now on? Keep locking them back up again? It is not a viable plan. It isn't even the basis on which to make one around.

It's not a black and white case of just hiding in the cupboard until the monster hopefully leaves the room like a majority of people seem to think it is. It's a very complicated problem, that needs some very smart people in charge of managing it and that isn't something we have had here at any point. There are data based models out there telling you that after 3 weeks a lockdown starts causing more damage than it saves. There's statistical data out there telling you that something as simple as austerity can be linked to nearly HALF A MILLION deaths. Imagine what a prolonged massive economic recession coupled with the fact it wont actually cause the virus to go away will do by comparison. If 30,000 is a tragedy what is a number that has some more zeros on the end of it? Because that's a very genuine possibility as things stand.
 
balaks said:
I hope so too. People need a proper basic wage that you can realistically live on.
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I'm not say this is you but anyone who has this dewy eyed view that this crisis will make the world a better place and the poorly paid are going to get a pay increase is in for a surprise. The bank of England have announced we are in for the deepest recession since the war. I dare say this makes it far more likely we will see downward pressure on wages and upward pressure on tax.

We're in for a bumpy ride and somebody is going to pay for it. Guess who that's going to be!
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The really interesting insight into a national psyche here is not why Germany doesn’t want to reference a war that killed millions, it’s why the British media constantly talk about the “blitz spirit” in a population of people born decades after the war was over.
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My generation is far more likely to use terms like “Germany/Axis/Nazis/Hitler were defeated”. My father’s generation uses the phrase “We won WW2”.

I’m actually ok with evoking memories of The Blitz if it’s contextualised and used to promote something good. The media uses it as a tub-thumping jingoistic line.

If the country actually had an announced and managed Government message and movement to: Connect small communities, create face coverings, manage grocery deliveries, protect the vulnerable and needy, educate children, and and and.... That would be great.

As it is, they’re pissing away opportunity, pointing fingers anywhere but their way, and screwing over the poor and most in need.

I’m very left leaning, but these times have really opened my eyes to why Libertarians and Right Wing folks are cut from the same cloth.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
My generation is far more likely to use terms like “Germany/Axis/Nazis/Hitler were defeated”. My father’s generation uses the phrase “We won WW2”.

I’m actually ok with evoking memories of The Blitz if it’s contextualised and used to promote something good. The media uses it as a tub-thumping jingoistic line.
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Agree, there’s nothing wrong the blitz spirit in essence. Its the most recent real adversity the country went through and one of the most significant events in our history. My Nan lived through it in London and probably a majority of people in the UK still have a connection to it or the war like that. A couple of generations on then it will be less relevant. The Mail is writing to its (elderly) audience though.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
My generation is far more likely to use terms like “Germany/Axis/Nazis/Hitler were defeated”. My father’s generation uses the phrase “We won WW2”.

I’m actually ok with evoking memories of The Blitz if it’s contextualised and used to promote something good. The media uses it as a tub-thumping jingoistic line.

If the country actually had an announced and managed Government message and movement to: Connect small communities, create face coverings, manage grocery deliveries, protect the vulnerable and needy, educate children, and and and.... That would be great.

As it is, they’re pissing away opportunity, pointing fingers anywhere but their way, and screwing over the poor and most in need.

I’m very left leaning, but these times have really opened my eyes to why Libertarians and Right Wing folks are cut from the same cloth.
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I thought libertarians were generally considered right wing?
 
blue blue said:
I'm not say this is you but anyone who has this dewy eyed view that this crisis will make the world a better place and the poorly paid are going to get a pay increase is in for a surprise. The bank of England have announced we are in for the deepest recession since the war. I dare say this makes it far more likely we will see downward pressure on wages and upward pressure on tax.

We're in for a bumpy ride and somebody is going to pay for it. Guess who that's going to be!
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Not to mention people will still support a party that does nothing to address inequality in this country. For people at the bottom to get higher wages, the people at the top will have to give up profit. Which they won’t, they will raise prices, meaning that people at the bottom are no better off.

The stat about 65% of of the population thinking the government has handled the crisis well tells you all you need to know.
 


Ben Goldacre always gives me a bit of an ache in the balls, probably unfairly, but this is good stuff.

tl;dr


  • Largest study to date, analysing NHS health data from 17.4 million UK adults between 01 February 2020 and 25 April 2020, has given the strongest evidence to date on risk factors associated with COVID-19 death.
  • Among the 17.4 million adults in the sample, there were 5,707 deaths in hospitals attributed to COVID-19.
  • People of Asian and Black ethnic backgrounds are at a higher risk of death and, contrary to prior speculation, this is only partially attributable to pre-existing clinical risk factors or deprivation.
  • Key factors related to COVID-19 death included being male, older age, uncontrolled diabetes and severe asthma.
  • A deprived background was also found to be a major risk factor: this was also only partially attributable to other clinical risk factors.
 
Stuck in a queue behind a whole family of 4, bikes and all for Asda. What happened to 1 person only doing the shop they stood blocking the pavement for a while as well. Move I dont wish to walk really close to you!!
 
Flying high said:
I thought libertarians were generally considered right wing?
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They are. But I’d never quite got across their absolute love of Government power (Admittedly using the American experience) whilst paying fealty to the Head of the Gang.... while also wanting the smallest possible and most control of their own money as possible.

It speaks less to the rest of what I wrote than I’d hoped. Not quite a fully formed thought.
 
Did anyone watch the briefing? Reading selective quotes it looks an awful lot like Raab suggested that the app would provide people with comfort that they didn't have the virus. Surely he didn't say that
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
They are. But I’d never quite got across their absolute love of Government power (Admittedly using the American experience) whilst paying fealty to the Head of the Gang.... while also wanting the smallest possible and most control of their own money as possible.

It speaks less to the rest of what I wrote than I’d hoped. Not quite a fully formed thought.
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Yeah, the hypocricy is strong in those guys. Small government, huge army. Do what you want, war on drugs. etc etc
 
Classical Mechanic said:
They supported British fascist parties in the 30s but they didn’t support Germany at any point during the war.
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You're right that they didn't support Germany during the war, but the bolded suggests that they never supported Nazism. That's incorrect, they celebrated Nazis and Hitler well into the 30s.
 


No UK hospital death data in the small print but there was 383 hospital deaths today in England with 131 of those being from April and March.
 
redshaw said:


No UK hospital death data in the small print but there was 383 hospital deaths today in England with 131 of those being from April and March.
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Never really looked at one of these closely before. Why the discrepancy between total daily tests and number of people tested? Are people getting tested multiple times in the same day?!
 
Cascarino said:
You're right that they didn't support Germany during the war, but the bolded suggests that they never supported Nazism. That's incorrect, they celebrated Nazis and Hitler well into the 30s.
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I don’t think it does suggest that. They supported Oswald Mosley‘s blackshirts which was a facist party in the mould of the Mussolini’s blackshirts and the Nazis but the poster specifically said they supported Germany in the war which was specific and wrong.
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
Never really looked at one of these closely before. Why the discrepancy between total daily tests and number of people tested? Are people getting tested multiple times in the same day?!
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I think they just mean people who've been tested previously.

That or some poor bugger is spending the day getting his nose swabbed repeatedly. In which case, I hope it pays well.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I don’t think it does suggest that. They supported Oswald Mosley‘s blackshirts which was a facist party in the mould of the Mussolini’s blackshirts and the Nazis but the poster specifically said they supported Germany in the war which was specific and wrong.
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Misunderstanding on my part, it was does just the use of the word English.
 
sammsky1 said:
Is Laura actually just thick, rather than a Tory patsy?

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I've said that before. I think she's genuinely just a bit stupid, doesn't understand the issues she's talking about, and doesn't realise that the people briefing her have their own agendas. She's the ideal person to have her job from the governments point of view. I just don't understand how she got it in the first place.
 
So a member of staff in my mums care home has tested positive. We’ve had to give permission for mum to be tested now. Was half expecting it but hoping they’d all avoid it.
 
Sparky Rhiwabon said:
No surprise that the “Stay at home” messaging is about to be dropped here in the UK. Not sure if there’ll be a new slogan but I think the new messaging is going to be about social distancing and “getting Britain working again”
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Christ. I can actually hear that in BoJos voice
 
'The UK government handed a contract to feed more than a million pupils eligible for free school meals to a company with fewer than 150 staff, which has been accused of “woeful” preparation that left children going hungry and humiliated parents.

The task, outsourced to French-owned Edenred under emergency powers without a competitive tendering process, involves distributing food vouchers valued at up to £234m.'


(Guardian)
 
NinjaFletch said:
I've said that before. I think she's genuinely just a bit stupid, doesn't understand the issues she's talking about, and doesn't realise that the people briefing her have their own agendas. She's the ideal person to have her job from the governments point of view. I just don't understand how she got it in the first place.
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Answered you're own question here. There's been a link between big British media establishments and the tories for years now(ITV national news editor just recently went to work for the tory party).

Having said that Kuenssberg is very similar to Marr - a genuine idiot.
 
golden_blunder said:
So a member of staff in my mums care home has tested positive. We’ve had to give permission for mum to be tested now. Was half expecting it but hoping they’d all avoid it.
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Hope she's OK, geebs. It's really hard to keep the care homes free of infection, with all the different staff they have coming and going.
 
Penna said:
Hope she's OK, geebs. It's really hard to keep the care homes free of infection, with all the different staff they have coming and going.
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It’s a dementia care home and most of them aren’t in the best of health. Mum has had to go to the hospital 3-4 times already this year with symptoms like mini strokes but they can never find the actual reason. She’s prone to catching stuff so if anyone is going to catch Covid it’ll be her
 
golden_blunder said:
It’s a dementia care home and most of them aren’t in the best of health. Mum has had to go to the hospital 3-4 times already this year with symptoms like mini strokes but they can never find the actual reason. She’s prone to catching stuff so if anyone is going to catch Covid it’ll be her
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Hope she tests negative and avoids it. My father in law is in one of only 2 care homes out of 70 in my city that don't have it. It just feels like you're waiting for it to happen doesn't it?
 
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