Ignorant to call people selfish for putting their personal economy over the health of potentially hundreds of people? Go on mate
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Take 2 weeks off if you have it. Its not that hard. Or infect fellow workmates and get the entire place shut down as a hotspot anyway.
Tough choice
Which, in turn, could potentially put the whole place out of business permanently. Making you - and everyone you work with - unemployed. There’s loads of small businesses (eg, cafes, restaurants, retail shops) on death’s door as it is. If they get shut down because they’re at the centre of a cluster that could be game over.
Even if we completely ignore the health consequences, going into work with covid can put you and your colleagues in a much worse hole, financially, than doing the right thing.
Especially as people usually get more than statutory sick pay, as many employers pay full rate for staff for the first few weeks of sickness. My work do for 6 months for example.
The main issue is the poor sods on zero hour contracts, as they can be left with nothing.
Yeah that's obviously horrible but that is at least being looked at with this £500 thing? Very late in coming though.
If anything it’s ignorant to go to work potentially carrying COVID, which in the long run would shut the work place down.
The zero hour contracts thing is a massive problem here. Lots of chickens coming home to roost. I wouldn’t lump them in alongside people unhappy with their sick pay. There should be some sort of legislation to temporarily force any company using zero hour contracts to pay sick pay. No idea how you make that work within the current employment law though.
I can see both sides. Imagine you’re on minimum wage, you’ve been furloughed on 80% pay for six months and you now have to take two weeks of getting £100.
Added to this is the pressure of not turning up to work. A lot of jobs might have the situation where if you don’t turn up, someone else will do the work, or it waits until you’re back. But I’ve had jobs before where if I don’t turn up, the shop doesn’t open for the day. It can be more than just financial pressure.
I think if you’ve got a positive test and you go out to work, that’s really bad. But there will be a lot of people who might have some mild symptoms, but are unable to book a test nearby. They then have to choose whether to stay in or not, and it’s not their fault.
Added to this is the pressure of not turning up to work. A lot of jobs might have the situation where if you don’t turn up, someone else will do the work, or it waits until you’re back. But I’ve had jobs before where if I don’t turn up, the shop doesn’t open for the day. It can be more than just financial pressure.
I think if you’ve got a positive test and you go out to work, that’s really bad. But there will be a lot of people who might have some mild symptoms, but are unable to book a test nearby. They then have to choose whether to stay in or not, and it’s not their fault.
I disagree. I say this as someone who has cobbled a living together from multiple zero hour contracts. It would suck, and I'd be forced to try to borrow from friends and family to pay the bills, but it isn't worth risking other people's health and possibly lives over.
Those workers understand the system and are behaving correctly.
And what about those who aren't in that position to borrow from friends and family?
Don’t know where that quote came from but I doubt that whoever wrote it figured that looking after ourselves first involved passing a potentially lethal virus onto the neighbours we are also supposed to look after.
Ok Thatcher.
From 3-time PM who ideology is pretty mch unchallenged since the 80s. She clearly says what the *first* priority is. And if there is any significant problem caused by loss of income your course of action has been blessed by Thatcher herself.
That’s a fair post. Their are shades of grey here (there always is!) The scenario in the tweet was barn door covid symptoms but choosing to work rather than take statutory sick pay. If you could reasonably convince yourself you don’t have covid - and/or it’s very difficult to get tested - then the ethics are different. Obviously the elephant in the room here is a testing system that’s fit for purpose. Getting that right is even more important than fixing sick pay.
Ok, right. I can’t stand Thatcher so it’s good that you’re using her ideology as an example of what not to do.
Yeah, there will be those, obviously. How many though? Possibly not enough to cause huge numbers of issues.
There needs to be some proper government support for people to isolate though, rather than just threat of fines. Other countries have offered financial assistance to people in that situation, but then again, I've wanted the government to act on zero hour contracts for years and they just trot out the line that "lots of people like the convenience" . Never do they mention lots of people hate the insecurity and would rather have a real employment contract.
I mean if you woke up with mild cold symptoms and went to work then I’d understand but with a symptom that’s highly likely to be Covid-19 it’s a lot more questionable.
With the fine measures, they also announced that a £500 lump sum will be offered to those who need to isolate and will lose money as a result of not working, on benefits, or cannot do their job from home.
I do think covidiots who accidentally infect or even endanger others through their actions should face - essentially manslaughter charges. Slightly toned down manslaughter charges. A portion of the blame for the pandemic manslaughter charges. Or at least the threat of.
Right at the start of the pandemic - before lockdown - before restrictions - my friend was going out and about with some pretty severe COVID symptoms. I've not really looked at him the same way since. Selfish. Stupid.
That being said, the police in the UK lost a lot of respect at the start of the pandemic for their overzealous policing.
You act in the interests of the common good you selfish feck.
People may not stand her but her ideology won and has been in power since 1980, it is no surprise that people will act the way she thought they should. There is a direct link in believing in a society/not having people on the brink of poverty/providing a substantial safety net for testing positive vs the world as she helped make it, with the individual as king.
I don’t think the extreme of Thatcher’s position has ever been the reality in the UK on the ground. She would have privatised the NHS if she could, something which has very little support here.
Yes.
If you’ve had a positive test and been told to isolate yet still knowingly go out and risk spreading the disease and killing someone how is that any better morally than being drunk and then driving? Am I perhaps being too draconian in thinking if you’ve broken quarantine and a positive case is traced back to you then fines don’t cut it as a punishment? I’m not talking about just symptoms here - I mean an actual positive test.
It hasn’t though. Hence the NHS is going strong thirty years after she was ousted.
Not to mention that individualism predates Thatcher by hundreds (thousands?) of years. People have always been inclined to be selfish. It’s difficult to get individuals to think of the greater good and blaming Thatcher for that is a hell of a stretch.
To me if you knowingly go out and infect people (potentially killing them) isn’t that just manslaughter?
Oh. Well, I stand corrected. Shame that news got buried beneath the more negative stuff really. The strength of the messaging continues to be questionable in this case. I spend time on here most days reading through the posts, but had missed this announcement, so I'd imagine many more have too.
Yes
Went to take the test today as I returned from an area (Prague) last night which is deemed high-risk by my government. It's not enforced and also extremely unlikely that I caught the virus as I had spend the day outside but better to play by the rules. Test centre is at the airport and only open from 4 to 8 which I didn't know so ended up going twice. 
Results tomorrow.
Results tomorrow.Yes
Agreed. I guess for me the difference is that governments are meant to be the adults in the room.
I can also see how easy it would be to dismiss minor symptoms when you are only a paycheck away from financial pain (and in a few cases financial ruin/eviction etc). That many government's chaotic approach has made it harder for people to follow/believe advice hasn't helped. A lack of funding for people who should be isolating will always compound the problem.
Australia is starting ramping back the extra unemployment pay and Jobkeeper finds to business soon. Economically we have been doing ok considering with very encouraging unemployment figures recently. However, the government's plans to swap extra unemployment money and Jobkeeper spending for tax cuts for the well off and wealthy is Thatherite madness. Basically they are taking money away from unemployed people who spend everything and giving it to people like me who aren't anywhere as needy. Plus far far more to those who don't need it at all. A combination of moving to a flat tax rate with added trickle down economic nonsense.
Victoria seem to be under control with only 11 new cases yesterday. The worry is that testing rates are dropping which may make reducing restrictions riskier than it would seem. NSW only had 2 cases yesterday, 1 who arrived from overseas, but the worry is that the other case was a taxi driver who drove all over Sydney for about 8 days when he may have been infectious. Watch this space.
This again? Seriously? Never in billion years is it manslaughter. As in never ever ever would it be manslaughter. Unless you’ve been diagnosed with covid and you walk up to a 90 year old cancer sufferer and spit in their face. Anything else and it’s never ever going to be manslaughter.
Youve got @rcoobc saying people with Covid who infect others should be done for manslaughter but then moaning that police were over zealous in confronting people over breaking lockdown rules
Make ya mind up....
Correct.
Those criteria seem fair though? They will definitely capture anyone who would really struggle financially if the alternative was statutory sick pay.
I was actually wondering if a no questions asked £500 per positive test might be a good idea. It would definitely increase testing rates. But if you loosen the criteria too much you run the risk of chancers deliberately picking up the virus to get some easy money.
On balance, this seems like a really sensible initiative. I’d like to see something similar in Ireland.
There should be more looking into what Germany is doing as a major European nation compared with France, Spain and UK, we don't hear much about it. I'm reminded how Germany report today they're alarmed by France, a strong ally of theirs.
I tried to raise it in the first wave and proposed they got out in front of the virus with lots of testing. I read anecdotal info on other forums of the odd track and trace happening in Germany, remember it wasn't a big thing then in Europe and it seemed the limited tracing and large testing was key. They had many protests there with tens of thousands and allegedly people flouting the soft lockdown, it did seem the testing got those that had it, they took it seriously while others weren't.
Countries in question are doing more testing now than Germany was then and I would think much more tracing compared to what little Germany was doing in March April, even if not efficient as it could be it should be getting out in front. Germany still low on cases while France and Spain are in the 10-13k, deaths and hospitalizations rising, UK seemingly joining them soon. Cases in Netherlands and Belgium very high for the population. Could it be more to do with Germany just being more disciplined and organized as a society of people, living up to the stereotype, the rest of the busy western euro countries are doing way worse.
Mask wearing was said to be high in Spain and France and the key for east Asian nations yet cases have taken off. It's looking more like the people acting responsibly and remaining cautious is the main thing behind the mask. Japan wear masks too but they have little testing, oldest population, high concentration of people, 120 million. Experts have been waiting for it to explode there and in Hong Kong but it hasn't and you can't point to testing testing testing and super track and trace in Japan.
New York took an absolute pounding with 1600 per million dead. Their infection followed on quickly from western Europe due to travel links of the East coast tip of US and western Europe so it may rise again after western Europe's second wave is in full swing but they've been very low for a long time now like Italy, and are probably being cautious still just in the way it unfolded and how it's viewed, still scarred. Italy has seen a small rise yes but they like New York have been very low for such a long time.
I tried to raise it in the first wave and proposed they got out in front of the virus with lots of testing. I read anecdotal info on other forums of the odd track and trace happening in Germany, remember it wasn't a big thing then in Europe and it seemed the limited tracing and large testing was key. They had many protests there with tens of thousands and allegedly people flouting the soft lockdown, it did seem the testing got those that had it, they took it seriously while others weren't.
Countries in question are doing more testing now than Germany was then and I would think much more tracing compared to what little Germany was doing in March April, even if not efficient as it could be it should be getting out in front. Germany still low on cases while France and Spain are in the 10-13k, deaths and hospitalizations rising, UK seemingly joining them soon. Cases in Netherlands and Belgium very high for the population. Could it be more to do with Germany just being more disciplined and organized as a society of people, living up to the stereotype, the rest of the busy western euro countries are doing way worse.
Mask wearing was said to be high in Spain and France and the key for east Asian nations yet cases have taken off. It's looking more like the people acting responsibly and remaining cautious is the main thing behind the mask. Japan wear masks too but they have little testing, oldest population, high concentration of people, 120 million. Experts have been waiting for it to explode there and in Hong Kong but it hasn't and you can't point to testing testing testing and super track and trace in Japan.
New York took an absolute pounding with 1600 per million dead. Their infection followed on quickly from western Europe due to travel links of the East coast tip of US and western Europe so it may rise again after western Europe's second wave is in full swing but they've been very low for a long time now like Italy, and are probably being cautious still just in the way it unfolded and how it's viewed, still scarred. Italy has seen a small rise yes but they like New York have been very low for such a long time.
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I work for a German company. There are obviously regional (and individual) variations but yes, they really do live up to that stereotype. Give them a guideline and they will follow it to the letter.
Here’s some interesting/worrying news. My company offers the flu vaccine to all staff every year. This year it is only being offered to people who are >65/vulnerable. Because of a global supply shortage. Feck’s sake.