SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Pogue Mahone said:
Still unworkable. As well as the obvious issue re freight, people travel within the EU for all sorts of essential reasons that wouldn’t function with compulsory quarantine. Commuting to and from another country to work, for example.

In Ireland we have some major power stations that require regular maintenance by engineers that live in the UK. How does that work with guarded quarantine every time they cross a border?
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Obviously the EU and Britain are connected differently to how AU and NZ are connected to the rest of the world although the issues are broadly the same.

In the case of the scenario you mention it depends on which perspective you are talking about. If the UK decided to go to full lock down then engineers would either not be allowed out, or allowed out and not back in, allowed out but must quarantine on their return or some special arrangement as AU use with aircrew at the moment.

Ireland's perspective might be different as they need the engineers from the UK. Maybe a negative covid test within 48 has of arrival and then some sort of restricted access to work under supervision and escorted to/from quarantine every day including full ppe when out of the quarantine hotel?

In the end it is a matter of political will and I'm not sure that would ever exist with flip flopping incompetents like Boris in charge. They may have also blown the opportunity for mass cooperation with events to date. They also have to be prepared to arrest, fine and imprison (in extreme cases like skipping quarantine) rules breakers.
 
Volumiza said:
I completely disagree. For all the faults of Boris, and this government, the messages have not been mixed in their basic form since March.

Keep your distance
Don’t breath the same air
Don’t touch the same things
Don’t be in large, close knit groups

Blaming the government is the laziest form of nonsense. How much better would we be off if Jeremy Corbyn had won the election or if Kier Starmer was running things?

People know, they absolutely know what to do and what this virus is but they do what they want anyway. Gatherings, no masks and the countless fools that continue to think holidays are necessary.

I have played by the rules just like you but I see people who don’t every single day. It is their fault, not Boris’s. They would be the same idiots under any government.
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And there it is. I'm sick and tired of that utterly irrelevant piece of whataboutery.
 
rcoobc said:
How can it be the public's fault when the government has been this incompetent. The public are just trying to survive.
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I agreed with most of your post until this bit.

Like I said in a previous post, I’ve literally been a prisoner in my own home today. I’ve seen out of my window hundreds, if now a few thousand people all descended on my village.

Lots of families, clearly meeting other families and friends and making large groups of people. These are not people low on IQ, judging by cars and clothes, lots of middle class, well educated and well paid people literally choosing to do what they were doing among loads of other affluent and likeminded people. Barely a mask or 2 metres in sight.

What struck me is the breath mist, it was cold today, there were groups of people literally surrounded by each other’s breath in big clouds. No one seems concerned.

This is just one village. These idiots are all over the country and I view these as the main driving force behind these rising numbers. They aren’t doing what they’re doing because of mixed messages, they’re doing it because they want to.
 
Volumiza said:
I’m not condoning the words or actions of this government but I have the same prime minister as countless other people in the uk and I can think for myself and judge what I should do.

Ive stuck to the rules throughout, regardless of what the government have subsequently said. Blaming them for everything is just lazy and it really gets on my nerves.
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I would just say that I really struggled living in a tiny box room at university.

Living in a tiny box room with no escape would have been hell on earth.

I miss meeting my mates and friends but at least I have my partner and kids. Being alone, with no partner and no social contact would be ridiculous.

One of my mates said she completely broke down when they said Christmas was cancelled. After losing her job a few weeks ago, and losing her grandad in the Spring, she had been planning on seeing her family for the first time in a year.

This has been a long, tough year. I was like you at the start, people need be sensible, people need common sense. Wear a mask even if you don't have to. Give people space. Don't do stupid stuff that could spread COVID.

But at some point you've got to give people an emotional break.

Its the hope that kills. My kids are maybe too young to get badly hurt by missing proper Christmas but they are also.. not. My kid sister is really really really struggling for lack of social contact with anyone her own age.

It's just poo. It's crap. Everyone has there own story @Volumiza. Judge not a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes.

But there is one group of people who's job it is to keep us safe from viruses. Who get paid hundreds of thousands of pounds a year to set good sensible rules to make and keep us safe. They haven't done that in my opinion. I don't care whether you are labour or Tory or right or left they haven't done that.

We've had a positive R number for months and months, essentially since September 3rd when the schools went back. If they had kept the R number at 1.0, perhaps this new strain wouldn't have appeared at all (because if you have 10x fewer people with the disease then you have 10x fewer potential mutations) but even if it still did, then they'd have bought themselves time to react.

Sorry but I'm done blaming the public. They aren't the ones you should hold to account.
 
Volumiza said:
I’m not condoning the words or actions of this government but I have the same prime minister as countless other people in the uk and I can think for myself and judge what I should do.

Ive stuck to the rules throughout, regardless of what the government have subsequently said. Blaming them for everything is just lazy and it really gets on my nerves.
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How many thousand British citizens would have had to unnecessarily die for you to be critical of the government btw?

Because it's clear their incompetence mean it's many thousands more than needed to have, so I'd like to know where the line is.
 
Volumiza said:
I agreed with most of your post until this bit.

Like I said in a previous post, I’ve literally been a prisoner in my own home today. I’ve seen out of my window hundreds, if now a few thousand people all descended on my village.

Lots of families, clearly meeting other families and friends and making large groups of people. These are not people low on IQ, judging by cars and clothes, lots of middle class, well educated and well paid people literally choosing to do what they were doing among loads of other affluent and likeminded people. Barely a mask or 2 metres in sight.

What struck me is the breath mist, it was cold today, there were groups of people literally surrounded by each other’s breath in big clouds. No one seems concerned.

This is just one village. These idiots are all over the country and I view these as the main driving force behind these rising numbers. They aren’t doing what they’re doing because of mixed messages, they’re doing it because they want to.
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Let me ask you this: am I allowed to meet up with a friend to go for a cycle.

I live in Kent, tier 4. So does he.

First question am I allowed to? Second much harder question, should I?
 
NinjaFletch said:
How many thousand British citizens would have had to unnecessarily die for you to be critical of the government btw?

Because it's clear their incompetence mean it's many thousands more than needed to have, so I'd like to know where the line is.
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Mate, I’d have decked the economy months ago and had us locked down. I don’t agree with much of the government’s actions but we all have to take ownership at some point.
 
NinjaFletch said:
How many thousand British citizens would have had to unnecessarily die for you to be critical of the government btw?

Because it's clear their incompetence mean it's many thousands more than needed to have, so I'd like to know where the line is.
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I don't think we need to make it an either/or argument. People who do the wrong thing should be put in Dara O'Brian's sack and beaten with sticks.

The government's incompetence, flip flopping and mixed messaging means the bag must be far far bigger as it has facilitated people's bad behaviour and hugely exacerbated the problem.
 
rcoobc said:
Indeed. Lets just get the vaccine. Give me all the freaking vaccines, one after another, directly into my spine!
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Early adopters only get it with a blunt needle in the eyeball.

Probably.
 
For anyone interested, there is a game called "Plague inc" available on the Play Store and Apple App store, that has a new game mode called "the Cure"

You may remember this as the evolution of that Pandemic Java game that was popular online a few decades ago where you had to kill the whole world with a disease.

Well the new update that has "The Cure" flips the table and allows you to act as the government(s) locking countries down, opening them up again, advising people to wear masks, etc as your pandemic of choice unfolds. I have found it quite interesting to look at it as a very hard and fast simulation, even it is very unscientific.
 
United Hobbit said:
And then you see this happening, hope they were fined:

So much for tier 4 meaning stay in your local area...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55474533
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Tbh, I have no idea of the rules anymorr because I'm not constantly refreshing the government page. I can't blame people for not knowing half the shite considering you can live 5 mins away from a different tier with different rules.

However, on the other hand, it's amazing how many people were bang into fitness and walking during lockdown, then lockdown ended and nobody gave a feck anymore, until this tier 4 came in and now everyone is a hiker / runner / jogger again. Absolute knobs.
 
Wibble said:
I don't think we need to make it an either/or argument. People who do the wrong thing should be put in Dara O'Brian's sack and beaten with sticks.

The government's incompetence, flip flopping and mixed messaging means the bag must be far far bigger as it has facilitated people's bad behaviour and hugely exacerbated the problem.
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I'm not going to act like it is not an either/or. But given Volumiza wanted to start a discussion about things 'getting on our nerves' nothing does it more than Johnson cheerleaders trying to downplay just how terribly they've handled just about everything whilst moaning about Labour.
 
Volumiza said:
No and no, now ask me a difficult question.
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This is the issue. The answer is obvious, but the government have left it up to the people. That's fine but in the countries that are doing well (some of them with the experience of previous viruses) governments have made this decision for them. I'm not saying that's right, but there's a huge difference and that difference shows in number of cases in every country.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I'm not going to act like it is an either/or. But given Volumiza wanted to start a discussion about things 'getting on our nerves' nothing does it more than Johnson cheerleaders trying to downplay just how terribly they've handled just about everything whilst moaning about Labour.
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Im far from a cheerleader. I’d have had the population locked down ages ago and schools closed before Christmas. There would be no mixed messages from me. My point was only that I see people flouting social sensibilities every day and none of them look like Boris Johnson. It’s a lazy cop out.
 
Volumiza said:
I agreed with most of your post until this bit.

Like I said in a previous post, I’ve literally been a prisoner in my own home today. I’ve seen out of my window hundreds, if now a few thousand people all descended on my village.

Lots of families, clearly meeting other families and friends and making large groups of people. These are not people low on IQ, judging by cars and clothes, lots of middle class, well educated and well paid people literally choosing to do what they were doing among loads of other affluent and likeminded people. Barely a mask or 2 metres in sight.

What struck me is the breath mist, it was cold today, there were groups of people literally surrounded by each other’s breath in big clouds. No one seems concerned.

This is just one village. These idiots are all over the country and I view these as the main driving force behind these rising numbers. They aren’t doing what they’re doing because of mixed messages, they’re doing it because they want to.
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Are you in an area where those activities are legal? It's fair to say the subsequent waves have been caused by legal activity, some of which the experts already warned the government about.

If your argument is the government shouldn't be blamed for not legalising what people should be doing anyway It's a poor argument isn't it? You have to be very unaware to not recognise the restrictions or lack of them drive behaviours because some take their cue from briefings.

What's the governments excuse exactly? They couldn't be arsed?
 
Balljy said:
This is the issue. The answer is obvious, but the government have left it up to the people.
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Exactly! The government’s failure is leaving it up to people and it is the people’s failure to be sensible. If I can see my government is saying something is ok, when I know it’s not, does that mean I have to do it?
 
NinjaFletch said:
I'm not going to act like it is not an either/or. But given Volumiza wanted to start a discussion about things 'getting on our nerves' nothing does it more than Johnson cheerleaders trying to downplay just how terribly they've handled just about everything whilst moaning about Labour.
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I should have just posted what I did without quoting you as it was addressing the issue in general and not disputing anything you were saying. Sorry for giving that impression.
 
Smores said:
Are you in an area where those activities are legal? It's fair to say the subsequent waves have been caused by legal activity, some of which the experts already warned the government about.

If your argument is the government shouldn't be blamed for not legalising what people should be doing anyway It's a poor argument isn't it? You have to be very unaware to not recognise the restrictions or lack of them drive behaviours because some take their queue from briefings.

What's the governments excuse exactly? They couldn't be arsed?
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I would imagine my area will go up to tier 4 tomorrow and I’m pretty sure the police could have done some good here today.

I think people are mistaking my position with that of someone who is pro government. Not true. I’ve disagreed with a lot of their actions.

Bit like I said earlier, all of us, in countless countries have known what we’re dealing with for months. Why aren’t people behaving accordingly. It isn’t just the government’s fault.
 
United Hobbit said:
And then you see this happening, hope they were fined:

So much for tier 4 meaning stay in your local area...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55474533
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Sorry, but did you actually watch the video you posted?

The police are doing their part, protecting the public I assume. Telling everyone they can only exercise from their home.

But can anyone actually tell me where it says your exercise has to be from your home address? Edit - @F-Red rightly points out this isn't allowed in Wales.

ML3uID9.png


I agree that you aren't meant to leave your Tier... but does your exercise have to be from your home address? Everyone the BBC interviewed had a lovely welsh accent.

Where does it say that?

Is this not this all over again?

G1kOsof.png


Which was widely criticised



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-52055201
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/mar/27/police-acknowledge-confusion-over-uk-lockdown-rules

As that old welsh fellow said:

"If you go into your local shop, there are more people there than there are on this mountain today."
 
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rcoobc said:
Let me ask you this: am I allowed to meet up with a friend to go for a cycle.

I live in Kent, tier 4. So does he.

First question am I allowed to? Second much harder question, should I?
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Volumiza said:
No and no, now ask me a difficult question.
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F-Red said:
Current guidance on tier four allows individual exercise with one person from another household outdoors, with distancing - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-4-stay-at-home
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So we've had two answers so far.

One with a source (the government website) saying that I can go for a cycle with my mate.

One without a source (but saying the government has been clear on their message) saying that I cannot go for a cycle.

:lol:
 
rcoobc said:
Can anyone actually tell me where it says your exercise has to be from your home address?
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Guidance here - https://gov.wales/alert-level-4-frequently-asked-questions#section-58322

Are there any limits on how far I can run or cycle for exercise?
There are no limits on the distance you can travel during exercise, though the nearer you stay to your home, the better. Your exercise should start and finish from your home and you should exercise alone or with a member of your household or support bubble.
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Volumiza said:
Exactly! The government’s failure is leaving it up to people and it is the people’s failure to be sensible. If I can see my government is saying something is ok, when I know it’s not, does that mean I have to do it?
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That is a government failure though and one that some countries addressed when infection rate was low and have managed to keep low due to their measures. It's difficult to blame UK people for that when it's no different in the UK to worldwide and the only successful countries have been those with strict measures in place.
 
Volumiza said:
I would imagine my area will go up to tier 4 tomorrow and I’m pretty sure the police could have done some good here today.

I think people are mistaking my position with that of someone who is pro government. Not true. I’ve disagreed with a lot of their actions.

Bit like I said earlier, all of us, in countless countries have known what we’re dealing with for months. Why aren’t people behaving accordingly. It isn’t just the government’s fault.
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It's just a statement of fact, a minority will do whatever they can get away with as legal. It's the governments job to know that and put in controls to limit the impacts.

That's as true of lockdown restrictions as speeding laws. If the government doubled all speed limits tomorrow saying just drive carefully and yet car deaths still went up It's the government's fault on the macro level which is their primary role.
Would reckless drivers to be to blame for incidences? Yes
Would that absolve the government of careless oversight? No, a trend is a trend.
 
rcoobc said:
One without a source (but saying the government has been clear on their message) saying that I cannot go for a cycle.
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I said the message had been clear on how the virus is spread and what we can and should do to reduce the spread. That’s all I need to know and I’ve known that since March. I’ve not been privy to any more info that the rest of the population.
 
Volumiza said:
And? What about it? It’s a pretty straightforward whataboutism if you ask me.
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Deflecting away from the shambles of the government by creating hypothetical scenarios about people who were never elected is just peak bonkers.
 
As I've stated before in this thread - the actions of the government are appalling and they should be held totally accountable for the mess the U.K is in. We are an island, with the ability to isolate from the rest of the world efficiently. The half hearted approach has affected millions including myself.

Unfortunately I guess modern totalitarian states would prevail much more efficiently in such scenarios.

Boris was a shabby London mayor and even shabbier prime minister.
 
Volumiza said:
Exactly! The government’s failure is leaving it up to people and it is the people’s failure to be sensible. If I can see my government is saying something is ok, when I know it’s not, does that mean I have to do it?
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There`s also a lot of people looking at ways of getting round restrictions as soon as they are made as if it is some kind of a game . I live in North Wales and when the firebreak was ending here and England was going into lockdown I had a mate wanted to come and stay with his wife and 4 kids cos he could have gone out if he came to Wales . I told him to get fecked as we have been avoiding contact with other people as my wife is a carer looking after elderly and vulnerable people and I also look after my in laws in their 80s . I have hardly seen anyone this year as I have had to look after my in laws , father in law has got alzheimers and you can`t take him out . My next door neighbour has had family staying over this last week, visitors every day loads of people in and out of his house and is a recently retired RAF flight instructor , he is not confused by guidelines he just doesn`t give a feck .
 
tinfish said:
As I've stated before in this thread - the actions of the government are appalling and they should be held totally accountable for the mess the U.K is in. We are an island, with the ability to isolate from the rest of the world efficiently. The half hearted approach has affected millions including myself.

Unfortunately I guess modern totalitarian states would prevail much more efficiently in such scenarios.

Boris was a shabby London mayor and even shabbier prime minister.
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Apart from the word totally I agree with this post ... totally.
 
Volumiza said:
I said the message had been clear on how the virus is spread and what we can and should do to reduce the spread. That’s all I need to know and I’ve known that since March. I’ve not been privy to any more info that the rest of the population.
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Even that has changed. Although that actually isn't the government's fault.

Evidence for virus being airbourne
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-53329946

Government considering advising to keep windows open (which everyone at work was sick of me banging on about before the first lockdown)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-in-effort-to-curb-covid-19-poor-ventilation

Government urge people to keep windows open.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...e-of-ventilation-to-reduce-spread-of-covid-19

There was also stuff about not sitting "face on" with someone else, although that has largely disappeared now that we can't meet up with anyone.
 
Pink Moon said:
Deflecting away from the shambles of the government by creating hypothetical scenarios about people who were never elected is just peak bonkers.
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Im not deflecting at all. It was a legitimate question as people are blaming the government for the entirety of the mess were in and it’s just wrong.

It was a whataboutism but a necessary one when people are shielding the population from blame and heaping it solely on the doorstep of no10. Would we actually be doing much better under any other government
 
Volumiza said:
Im far from a cheerleader. I’d have had the population locked down ages ago and schools closed before Christmas. There would be no mixed messages from me. My point was only that I see people flouting social sensibilities every day and none of them look like Boris Johnson. It’s a lazy cop out.
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And you'll find no disagreement that some people are selfish (unfortunate failure of proofreading in that post you replied to aside).

At every stage however, that selfishness has been massively less important than shoddy messaging, baffling policy, incompetent delays, ideological warring, and attempts to protect their own. If you're not here to defend the government on that then perhaps your own messaging needs improvement!
 
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