SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Stanley Road said:
They're doing it right now though
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The lockdown you mean? Yeah but if intensive care beds had been increased, better information about the vaccination provided, compulsory vaccination introduced earlier in certain areas, the lockdown could have been prevented. But the government is not solely to blame. Unfortunately, we have an ultra-right party with many voters that spreads a lot of conspiracy theories, plus quite a few media outlets that fuel nonsense about the vaccination and the virus, and therefore a very low vaccination rate. The whole thing is a mess.
 
Godfather said:
The lockdown you mean? Yeah but if intensive care beds had been increased, better information about the vaccination provided, compulsory vaccination introduced earlier in certain areas, the lockdown could have been prevented. But the government is not solely to blame. Unfortunately, we have an ultra-right party with many voters that spreads a lot of conspiracy theories, plus quite a few media outlets that fuel nonsense about the vaccination and the virus, and therefore a very low vaccination rate. The whole thing is a mess.
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Someone called for me with my gif?

Do you need more ICU beds though considering the vaccination rate? What are the stats on hospital and ICU admissions?
Or is it another case of shitting the bed whilst the y axis is shooting up with regards to cases, in the belief it won’t naturally start to come back down again?

Considering the months it takes for any country to vaccinate a significant proportion of their population, it seems practically impossible for a country to ever reach close to 100% vaccinated at the same point in time. That was always the problem with a non sterilising vaccine.

Surely countries after 85% vaccinated, should simply be living with it, unless ICU is exploding.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Someone called for me with my gif?

Do you need more ICU beds though considering the vaccination rate? What are the stats on hospital and ICU admissions?
Or is it another case of shitting the bed whilst the y axis is shooting up with regards to cases, in the belief it won’t naturally start to come back down again?

Considering the months it takes for any country to vaccinate a significant proportion of their population, it seems practically impossible for a country to ever reach close to 100% vaccinated at the same point in time. That was always the problem with a non sterilising vaccine.

Surely countries after 85% vaccinated, should simply be living with it, unless ICU is exploding.
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Can only quote official dashboards here: https://covid19-dashboard.ages.at/dashboard_Hosp.html?l=en

33% of ICU beds are free (including emergency capacities) but:

24% are occupied by COVID patients. If the threshold value of 33% is exceeded, it is assumed that COVID-19 patients are in clear competition with other patients requiring ICU beds. So we are pretty close to that already. PLUS: We don't have enough care workers and those we have are extremely overworked and strained. So it's not looking that good.

And we are still far from a 85% vaccination rate. We are only at 65%.
 
Godfather said:
Can only quote official dashboards here: https://covid19-dashboard.ages.at/dashboard_Hosp.html?l=en

33% of ICU beds are free (including emergency capacities) but:

24% are occupied by COVID patients. If the threshold value of 33% is exceeded, it is assumed that COVID-19 patients are in clear competition with other patients requiring ICU beds. So we are pretty close to that already. PLUS: We don't have enough care workers and those we have are extremely overworked and strained. So it's not looking that good.

And we are still far from a 85% vaccination rate. We are only at 65%.
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Much more understandable then.
 
McGrathsipan said:
Does that mean the vaccines are not effective?
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Define effective?

If stopping people getting it, then no, but we knew that anyhow.

If stopping people getting seriously ill and hospitalised, then yes they are massively effective.
 
Stanley Road said:
They're doing it right now though
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Certainly the restrictions are the right response.
But the cause of their problems are associated with their low vaccination levels.
As they say, what goes around comes around...
 
McGrathsipan said:
Does that mean the vaccines are not effective?
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Effective yes, but it takes months and months to vaccinate so many people, and it’s not a smallpox-esque vaccine so it seems pie in the sky to expect 97% all vaccinated at one time.
So it’s effective at what it is supposed to do, which I’d hoped was to prevent countries from shitting the bed by keeping admissions low enough to cope with.
If countries continue to shit the bed every time the y axis for cases starts shooting up, this is the future for those countries.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Effective yes, but it takes months and months to vaccinate so many people, and it’s not a smallpox-esque vaccine so it seems pie in the sky to expect 97% all vaccinated at one time.
So it’s effective at what it is supposed to do, which I’d hoped was to prevent countries from shitting the bed by keeping admissions low enough to cope with.
If countries continue to shit the bed every time the y axis for cases starts shooting up, this is the future for those countries.
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That last sentence? It isn’t happening. Believe it or not, you don’t actually know more than the public health officials in these countries about the relationship between case numbers and burden on hospital resources.
 
Hold on here @Pogue Mahone, you’re suggesting the public health officials are making decisions based on evidence and local experience, the thing they’ve been trained to excel in? I dunno, @Regulus Arcturus Black’s shitting the bed in all contexts sounds more plausible…
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That last sentence? It isn’t happening. Believe it or not, you don’t actually know more than the public health officials in these countries about the relationship between case numbers and burden on hospital resources.
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There’s little doubt at this point that many are still making decisions on the assumption that the only way to guarantee bending the curve on the y axis is a form of lockdown.
 
Brwned said:
Hold on here @Pogue Mahone, you’re suggesting the public health officials are making decisions based on evidence and local experience, the thing they’ve been trained to excel in? I dunno, @Regulus Arcturus Black’s shitting the bed in all contexts sounds more plausible…
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I get the piss take, but countries have bent that curve of cases and admissions without lockdowns pre vaccines and these vaccines are very effective.
I’ll swap out shit the bed for “overly cautious” then.
 
How do Austria plan to enforce this mandatory vacinnation?

if someone is absolutely dead set against getting the vaccine are they going to drag them out of their house kicking and screaming to the nearest vacinnation centre ?

I’m all for people getting vacinnated. I’m against enforcing it on anyone though.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
There’s little doubt at this point that many are still making decisions on the assumption that the only way to guarantee bending the curve on the y axis is a form of lockdown.
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If the y axis represents burden on hospitals then yes, sure. In heavily vaccinated countries it’s hospital/ICU occupancy (current and future predicted) that drives decisions, not case numbers. Lockdowns being decisions made as an absolute last resort, when all other NPIs have failed.

That wasn’t what you were implying with those “shit the bed” comments though.
 
Given that this thing is now endemic do we (the UK) have any plans to perpetually increase ICU capacity and train up more specialist nurses? Obviously the second of those'll take time but plans are in place yeah?
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
I get the piss take, but countries have bent that curve of cases and admissions without lockdowns pre vaccines and these vaccines are very effective.
I’ll swap out shit the bed for “overly cautious” then.
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I am much closer to your opinion on how to handle things than the average person in here, and agree that the likes of Sweden have shown alternatives are possible (under some conditions), always have been.

But your shit the bed comments are just lazy, that’s still true if you change it to overly cautious. You’re making these statements in active ignorance of the local context. The exchange with Godfather about Austria demonstrated that: they shit the bed (unless ICU capacity is an issue), ICU capacity is an issue, oh well fair enough then.

The assumption that they would make this decision on cases rather than ICU capacity was silly in that situation and is silly in most. They understand the situation much better than you. At this point, no countries are trigger happy on lockdowns Austria tried to isolate it to the unvaccinated folks but things only got worse so they had to expand it.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
Given that this thing is now endemic do we (the UK) have any plans to perpetually increase ICU capacity and train up more specialist nurses? Obviously the second of those'll take time but plans are in place yeah?
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The government keep announcing extra money for NHS facilities and staff. Unfortunately they keep announcing the same extra money and changing its name/job description. So who knows what they'll actually get or what they'll be able to do with it (as it keeps getting phrases like "alongside social care and local services" tacked onto it)
 
Rooney24 said:
How do Austria plan to enforce this mandatory vacinnation?

if someone is absolutely dead set against getting the vaccine are they going to drag them out of their house kicking and screaming to the nearest vacinnation centre ?

I’m all for people getting vacinnated. I’m against enforcing it on anyone though.
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Can't agree with that at all and it's not the first time a vaccination is mandatory in Austria (and many other countries either). In 1948, we had compulsory vaccination against smallpox. With huge success too.
 
jojojo said:
The government keep announcing extra money for NHS facilities and staff. Unfortunately they keep announcing the same extra money and changing its name/job description. So who knows what they'll actually get or what they'll be able to do with it (as it keeps getting phrases like "alongside social care and local services" tacked onto it)
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Oh right, so not really then - at least not explicitly. Seems like a no brainer.
 
Godfather said:
Can't agree with that at all and it's not the first time a vaccination is mandatory in Austria (and many other countries either). In 1948, we had compulsory vaccination against smallpox. With huge success too.
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but how are they actually going to enforce it and makes sure people get it ? And what’s the penalty if they don’t. Prison ?
 
The protest in Vienna tomorrow is gonna be nuts after today's news.

Rooney24 said:
but how are they actually going to enforce it and makes sure people get it ? And what’s the penalty if they don’t. Prison ?
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We'll see, there's talk of substantial fines. You could also "simply" cut those guys off of some of our many social benefits.
It's gonna be very interesting and ugly.

I also don't think we'll be the last country to do this.
 
Just a question -

a person who gets Covid as a virus - he is theoretically vaccinated right at that point isn't he?
 
Bebestation said:
Just a question -

a person who gets Covid as a virus - he is theoretically vaccinated right at that point isn't he?
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Not exactly and it's not considered the same in Ireland anyway. Once you recover you get a covid cert like you would from the vaccine but it expires after 6 months and you still have to get the vaccine.
 
Bebestation said:
Just a question -

a person who gets Covid as a virus - he is theoretically vaccinated right at that point isn't he?
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Most will be - responses are inconsistent though. Where it works, it looks like that initial impact fades over the following months - at least in terms of protection from infection. The good news is that the vaccine on top of a past infection looks very effective - though obviously that's not the safest way to get protection.
 
jojojo said:
Most will be - responses are inconsistent though. Where it works, it looks like that initial impact fades over the following months - at least in terms of protection from infection. The good news is that the vaccine on top of a past infection looks very effective - though obviously that's not the safest way to get protection.
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Seems like why the vaccinated required a booster so quickly aswell.
 
Bebestation said:
Just a question -

a person who gets Covid as a virus - he is theoretically vaccinated right at that point isn't he?
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To be vaccinated means to be treated with a vaccine, so the pedantic answer is no.

"Treat with a vaccine to produce immunity against a disease; inoculate."

What a person who has recovered from Covid would have are antibodies, although if I remember from reading the studies the number of these is significantly less than those who have received a vaccine.
 
Rooney24 said:
How do Austria plan to enforce this mandatory vacinnation?

if someone is absolutely dead set against getting the vaccine are they going to drag them out of their house kicking and screaming to the nearest vacinnation centre ?

I’m all for people getting vacinnated. I’m against enforcing it on anyone though.
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make proof of vaccination required for everything, even being out the house harder to enforce but spot checks will scare many. But for things like going to work, going to the cinema, restaurant, bars, using public transport etc quite easy. Also with constant lockdowns and restrictions people who don’t want the vaccine will give in, and others will turn against the unvaccinated.
 
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