Scores die in Israeli air strikes

then the existence of kosovo is spot on too, even more than the state of israel, though I imagine you feel different about it

I'm not getting the connection, Kosovo was never in history an independent state nor was it an Albanian state. As for the Albanians having a right on their own state, that is correct. That state is called Albania. Basically both major groups in that region, Serbs and Albanians, have a right on their own state.

I think it's the same with Israel, both Jews and Arabs have a right on their own state. What's difficult is to rightfully determine the borders of each state.
 
Meanwhile, the death toll in Gaza is rising yet nobody seems to care anymore...

'Hamas torturing Fatah members in Gaza'

Hamas militiamen have rounded up hundreds of Fatah activists on suspicion of "collaboration" with Israel during Operation Cast Lead, Fatah members in the Gaza Strip told The Jerusalem Post on Monday.

The Fatah members and eyewitnesses said the detainees were being held in school buildings and hospitals that Hamas had turned into make-shift interrogation centers.

Hamas has also renewed house arrest orders that were issued against thousands of Fatah officials and activists in the Gaza Strip shortly after the military operation started.

A Fatah official in Ramallah told the Post that at least 100 of his men had been killed or wounded as a result of the massive Hamas crackdown. Some had been brutally tortured, he added.

The official said that the perpetrators belonged to Hamas's armed wing, Izaddin Kassam, and to the movement's Internal Security Force.

According to the official, at least three of the detainees had their eyes put out by their interrogators, who accused them of providing Israel with wartime information about the location of Hamas militiamen and officials.

A number of Hamas leaders and spokesmen have claimed in the past few days that Fatah members in the Gaza Strip had been spying on their movement and passing the information to Israel.

Two Hamas officials, Salah Bardaweel and Fawzi Barhoum, accused Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and his "spies" in the Gaza Strip of tipping off the Israelis about the movements of slain Hamas interior minister Said Siam, who was killed in an IAF strike on his brother's home in Gaza City last week.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1232292907998
 
If the IRA were sending 50 rockets a day into Britain we wouldn't use our air force to bomb their people

No. We would have gone street to street with troops in all probability

You are seeking to justify Israel, you repeat what they gave the people of Gaza was independence, you've got a fantasy in your head that the rockets are happening despite of Israels benevolence, no democracy would do what Israel has done to the people of Gaza, both before and after the rocket fire

The rockets are happening. The cause is presently irrelevant.

Shoot rockets at Israel and they will react with extreme prejudice. Everyone knows this including Hamas.

Which strongly suggests that this is what Hamas wanted.
 
Meanwhile, the death toll in Gaza is rising yet nobody seems to care anymore...

'Hamas torturing Fatah members in Gaza'

Hamas militiamen have rounded up hundreds of Fatah activists on suspicion of "collaboration" with Israel during Operation Cast Lead, Fatah members in the Gaza Strip told The Jerusalem Post on Monday.

The Fatah members and eyewitnesses said the detainees were being held in school buildings and hospitals that Hamas had turned into make-shift interrogation centers.

Hamas has also renewed house arrest orders that were issued against thousands of Fatah officials and activists in the Gaza Strip shortly after the military operation started.

A Fatah official in Ramallah told the Post that at least 100 of his men had been killed or wounded as a result of the massive Hamas crackdown. Some had been brutally tortured, he added.

The official said that the perpetrators belonged to Hamas's armed wing, Izaddin Kassam, and to the movement's Internal Security Force.

According to the official, at least three of the detainees had their eyes put out by their interrogators, who accused them of providing Israel with wartime information about the location of Hamas militiamen and officials.

A number of Hamas leaders and spokesmen have claimed in the past few days that Fatah members in the Gaza Strip had been spying on their movement and passing the information to Israel.

Two Hamas officials, Salah Bardaweel and Fawzi Barhoum, accused Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and his "spies" in the Gaza Strip of tipping off the Israelis about the movements of slain Hamas interior minister Said Siam, who was killed in an IAF strike on his brother's home in Gaza City last week.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1232292907998

MT (Palestinian Territories) v Secretary of State for the Home Department [2008] EWCA Civ 1149

The appellant asylum seeker (T) appealed against a decision of the Asylum and Immigration Tribunal dismissing his appeal against the refusal of his asylum claim by the respondent secretary of state. T, a Palestinian resident of the West Bank, arrived in the United Kingdom and claimed asylum on the basis that if returned to Palestine either the Israeli forces would kill him or Hamas would capture, imprison and torture him.
 
Ghazi Hamad, speaking out, 08.27.06

"Anarchy, wanton killing, land steeling, thuggery … is the occupation responsible for all?," he asked, saying that the Palestinians should stop espousing conspiracy theories which "limit our thinking."

"We didn't succeed in preserving the victory of liberating Gaza. 500 people died in the Strip since the withdrawal, as opposed to 3-4 Israelis killed by rockets. The reality in Gaza today is one of neglect, sadness, and failure. When someone errs we are scared to criticize him to avoid being accused of being against the resistance," Hamad wrote.

"When efforts are made to open the Rafah border crossing to ease the humanitarian crisis, there is always someone who fires a rocket on the crossing. When we speak about a truce, there is always someone who fires another rocket."

Hamad appeals to leaders of Palestinian factions saying that resistance against Israel is worthless when "the land is full with anarchy, corruption, thuggery, and gang killings. Isn't building the homeland part of the resistance?"

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3296410,00.html

Looks like Hamas, or what's left of them, are again doing just what they're best at.

edit: and that, btw, are people who Israel is supposed to negotiate with.
 
http://www.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleId=610100&ServiceID=217

There's a video inside. click it.

A palestinian doctor who actually serves in Israeli hospitals, lost 3 of his children in the Israeli bombing of his house. All live on Israeli TV. Tragedy. 3 of almost 1500, each and everyone has a story and family.

Seeing this page of the thread I assume that this thread is hijacked by Pro-Israel posters. You people are a sad sad case.

PS for people who can read hebrew/translate on web, read the comments, as usual the jew israelis show blood thirst that isnt rivaled since the 1940s.
 
The rockets are happening. The cause is presently irrelevant.

Shoot rockets at Israel and they will react with extreme prejudice. Everyone knows this including Hamas.

Which strongly suggests that this is what Hamas wanted.

Thats the problem, most people are of the Sky News generation who don't have a memory longer than 3 weeks. If you stretch back to the whole history of the occupation, events following the creation of the state of Israel etc...you'll see why these rockets are fired. People assume that this conflict started when a bunch of angry Arabs started tossing rockets at Israeli for no reason whatsoever.

Everyone in this thread, regardless of loyalties thinks Hamas is a no-good opportunist organisation that uses the death of their own civilians to their own advantages. However its working because Israel is ruthlessly eliminating palestinians while the world does nothing. They did the same thing 2 years ago in Lebanon and were excluded while the other side they were fighting against were dubbed Terrorists, go figure.
 
Thats the problem, most people are of the Sky News generation who don't have a memory longer than 3 weeks. If you stretch back to the whole history of the occupation, events following the creation of the state of Israel etc...you'll see why these rockets are fired. People assume that this conflict started when a bunch of angry Arabs started tossing rockets at Israeli for no reason whatsoever.

Everyone in this thread, regardless of loyalties thinks Hamas is a no-good opportunist organisation that uses the death of their own civilians to their own advantages. However its working because Israel is ruthlessly eliminating palestinians while the world does nothing. They did the same thing 2 years ago in Lebanon and were excluded while the other side they were fighting against were dubbed Terrorists, go figure.

The problem is that the Hamas displays a racist ideology whose main point is the extermination of Jews. There are no indications that Hamas would change their attitude whether being occupied or not, whether living in peace or not. Seems like your memory doesn't serve you very well either since you have forgotten to mention that that "bunch of angry Arabs" are also killing its own people! Doesn't this tell you something about the character of that organization?! The truth is not only are they "using the death of their own civilians to their own advantages", they are causing the death of their own civilians. I'm curious how you're gonna blame Israel for the hundreds of Palestinians killed by their own government!
 
The problem is that the Hamas displays a racist ideology whose main point is the extermination of Jews. There are no indications that Hamas would change their attitude whether being occupied or not, whether living in peace or not. Seems like your memory doesn't serve you very well either since you have forgotten to mention that that "bunch of angry Arabs" are killing its own people! The truth is not only are they "using the death of their own civilians to their own advantages", they are causing the death of their own civilians. I'm curious how you're gonna blame Israel for the hundreds of Palestinians killed by their own government!

Again, Im NOT defending Hamas, I see them as a huge barrier in the peace process. But the reason they're so influential with Palestinians is because of Israel, the Israeli treatment of Palestinians is the reason Hamas exists and is the reason they are in power. And to be fair they did recently sign a charter recognising the state of Israel providing Palestine was given a economically-sustainable state. But I stress that im not defending them.

Stop twisting the arguments around and for once stop focusing on Hamas only, Israel is the other half which is deterring the idea of peace. Sadly the world doesnt realise this and people are taught that there's only one villain in this conflict, I grew up learning that Israel was the good guy in this, but once you think outside that and look at it from all perspectives then you see the true nature of this conflict.
 
The rockets are happening. The cause is presently irrelevant.

Shoot rockets at Israel and they will react with extreme prejudice. Everyone knows this including Hamas.

Which strongly suggests that this is what Hamas wanted.

If it was irrelevant why use the analogy you painted?
 
PS for people who can read hebrew/translate on web, read the comments, as usual the jew israelis show blood thirst that isnt rivaled since the 1940s.
It seems that Cafites have finally stopped claiming, for a couple of days, that Israel is "just like the Nazis" for the way they treat the Palestinians. However Israelis are now the worst people since the Nazis, because of the way they make comments on websites.

See, this debate gets more civil ever day.
 
It seems that Cafites have finally stopped claiming, for a couple of days, that Israel is "just like the Nazis" for the way they treat the Palestinians. However Israelis are now the worst people since the Nazis, because of the way they make comments on websites.

See, this debate gets more civil ever day.

Don't act stupid. Of course they are not technically Nazis, they just act like them.
 
Because the scenarios I posted did not depend on previous history. Exactly my point.

You created a scenario under which democracies would have reacted like Israel, however that's only true because you ignore the history and make up your own, you've made a fantasy to excuse Israels actions because you couldn't justify them any other way
 
Wibble is right that Israel did what almost all nations would have done. The Provisional IRA hit the mainland with a handful of attacks over thirty years, and we responded with a fair few small-scale atrocities of our own - much like the Israeli response to the comparable, if much more intensive, suicide-bombing campaign during the second Intifada. Had the IRA hit mainland cities with fifty-odd rockets a day, however crap, we would have gone in hard, and with air power too. Because any response that did not stop the rockets would have been political suicide. The public aren't very squeamish when it comes to enemy deaths - after all, the US and UK have recently killed thousands in Afghanistan and Iraq, under no existential threat at all.

The question occupying me, which Mozza raised the other day, is not whether an invasion was justified, but whether there was an element of deterrence by collective punishment in the large-scale death and destruction that resulted. Is that ‘just what happens’ when your enemy hides in civilian areas and won’t come out to play, or was a certain amount of general death and damage part of the plan? You have to suspect that those hits on UN buildings were not accidental – there was a message to the Palestinians (there’s nowhere to hide), and a message to the UN in Gaza (if you don’t have neutrality you don’t have immunity). Certainly Israeli commentators are saying that the Lebanon ‘defeat’ should now be reappraised in the light of Hezbollah’s passivity during this war. Their civilian populations, it is argued, would not tolerate that level of destruction again in the service of someone else’s struggle.

The problem with this approach, whether it’s effective or not, is that it’s simply not acceptable. If that is part of the strategic thinking, then it really is state terrorism and a war crime. The lines are blurry – some retaliatory strikes are reasonable – but deliberate destruction of whole swathes of civilian areas in order to make a point is not. Israelis often say that with neighbours like theirs, they can’t afford to project anything except ruthlessness. But then you have to decide whether you want to be like a Western-style democracy or a middle eastern basket-case. If collective punishment is any part of your strategy, then you’re drifting towards the latter.

It’s also not going to work. It’s true the election of unashamedly racist, religiously fanatical Iranian proxies was very bad news for Israel. But punishing the population with blockades and destruction won’t make Hamas lose legitimacy. All it does is give the people nothing to lose, and that’s nothing but good for a radical organisation like Hamas.

As for Hamas, they deliberately brought this disaster onto their already battered people. It's not like they thought the Israelis would relax the blockade if they just bombed them for a while. They know the Israelis, they knew full well what they would do, and their leadership in Damascus continued to refuse ceasefires to the bitter end while their civilians died. They also launched their attacks in the run-up to an election, and during an American presidential interregnum, when they knew Israel had a free hand.

The explanation for this decision captures the extraordinary cynicism of Hamas: they want their own people to die. They want them to die for publicity. If the Israelis had killed ten times as many civilians, Hamas would have been delighted. As we speak they are happily torturing and murdering dozens of their Fatah brothers in Gaza. This is not a political party in any sense we normally understand it: a powerful section of it is a death cult, who by its own words "love death as you love life".

They have also done much to legitimate the hard-line Israeli belief in the necessity of ruthlessness. After all, the experience of unilateral withdrawal from both Lebanon and Gaza seems to bear this out. Hamas is just as responsible for the blockade as Israel: a party genuinely interested in a two-state solution would not have responded to the withdrawal by firing rockets. Trust can only develop by small steps, and much as the return of both territories was long overdue, it’s unrealistic to expect the Israelis to withdraw and then accept rocket attacks and the digging of tunnels designed to abduct their personnel, without doing something to stop it.

Nevertheless, the Israelis have to relax the blockade. It’s brutal, it’s counterproductive, and it’s collective punishment. For Israel, and for the non-settled parts of the West Bank, a truce means trade, development, building lives. But it’s not like that in Gaza under a truce - life’s still utterly shit, so there’s no real incentive to continue. The status-quo is not static: a general stand-off and lack of hostilities is alright in Israel, but means strangulation in Gaza, and a swelling settlement population on the West Bank. That doesn’t mean Hamas weren’t wrong - despicable, in fact - to refuse to extend the truce - they were. But it does mean it’s time to talk to them, death-cult or not - because there isn’t any other way of stopping this. Israel currently has a strengthened strategic position and unprecedented support from Sunni Arab leaders. Now is the time for negotiations.
 
I'm not excusing anything. I am saying that if you hit Israeli civilians with rockets at a significant rate the the Israeli military will kick someone's arse. How can anyone doubt that? If you stir up a hornets nest you will get stung. If you keep stiring up a hornets nest again and again it would suggest that you want the wasps to attack. There is no need to attach a moral or historical context to this because quite simply it will happen.
 
Don't act stupid. Of course they are not technically Nazis, they just act like them.
Read my post again please, because I think you missed my point, one which you then perfectly illustrate in your reply. This sort of hyperbole (the bold text) is exactly what I referred to in my post, the kind of which we had been delightfully free for a couple of days. But our little disagreement, Mr. Ruud, just goes to show you that Jews shouldn't be allowed to post on internet sites, it causes conflagration such as this. For in addition to a yen for revealing their blood thirst, Jews are devious, underhanded, deceptive, and fiendishly clever. Although to quote a previous poster here: they can't help themselves, it is too deeply ingrained in their culture.
 
How can anyone doubt that? If you stir up a hornets nest you will get stung. If you keep stiring up a hornets nest again and again it would suggest that you want the wasps to attack.
But Wibble. Those fecking wasps are in my fecking shed in my fecking back yard. What do they expect me to do? As soon as the swelling in my face goes down, I'm going right back out there, stick in hand, to see if they can't be made to see reason.

I'm a victim here. No blame of any kind can be assigned to me, nor should it be five minutes from now after I reintroduce them to Mr. Stick.
 
Reminds me of Blackadder 4 where Col Melchard is explaining why they are going over the top for the 24th time in a row despite being slaughtered every other time.

"Exactly, it is the last thing the hun will expect".
 
The question occupying me, which Mozza raised the other day, is not whether an invasion was justified, but whether there was an element of deterrence by collective punishment in the large-scale death and destruction that resulted. Is that ‘just what happens’ when your enemy hides in civilian areas and won’t come out to play, or was a certain amount of general death and damage part of the plan? You have to suspect that those hits on UN buildings were not accidental – there was a message to the Palestinians (there’s nowhere to hide), and a message to the UN in Gaza (if you don’t have neutrality you don’t have immunity).


I wouldn't think collective punishment was some sort of a strategic plan. Israel is aware than smashing people's homes isn't going to make them supportive a peace. However, when sending your army and reservists to stop rocket launching from populated areas you have to protect the ground forces with less accurate fire such as mortars, artillery and air strikes. You wouldn't expect any army to throw in soldiers running unprotected in the streets of Gaza fighting an army of terrorists. You're not talking about a group of 20-30 of them here, but (according to reports) 15,000 Hamas combatants armed to their teeth with rockets, anti-tank missiles, explosives etc.

They chose the battlefield, these are the results. Unfortunatley, as you have pointed out, they don't really care.
 
Read my post again please, because I think you missed my point, one which you then perfectly illustrate in your reply. This sort of hyperbole (the bold text) is exactly what I referred to in my post, the kind of which we had been delightfully free for a couple of days. But our little disagreement, Mr. Ruud, just goes to show you that Jews shouldn't be allowed to post on internet sites, it causes conflagration such as this. For in addition to a yen for revealing their blood thirst, Jews are devious, underhanded, deceptive, and fiendishly clever. Although to quote a previous poster here: they can't help themselves, it is too deeply ingrained in their culture.

Trust the Bosnian-Muslim fundamentalist to know a thing or two about Palestinians, Jews and Nazis. he must have heard stories from grandpa about the big war, the Handzar Division and the Jerusalem Grand Mufti.
 
I was wondering when that video would make an appearance. For those of you who didn't feel like watching, the clip is entitled "Hamas Transporting Gunmen in UN Marked Ambulances", you get quite an eyeful at the end. Though I didn't interpret the images to mean that the UN had provided transportation support, rather that Hamas had used a can of paint to ensure safe passage for themselves through whatever battlefield they found themselves on.

Perhaps the images are fake, but I haven't seen any denials on the web yet. Haven't looked too hard though, so share what you've got, when you've got it.
 
The first part of the clip reminded me of a scene from Escape from New York :nervous:
If anyone is eagle-eyed enough to spot Kurt Russell or Lee Van Cleef, we'll know the video's a fake. If you spot Ernest Borgnine though, sorry, that proves nothing.
 
If anyone is eagle-eyed enough to spot Kurt Russell or Lee Van Cleef, we'll know the video's a fake. If you spot Ernest Borgnine though, sorry, that proves nothing.

A legend!

btw, four armed cops just storming a house opposite my house. 9:22am, sunny morning, lovely neighborhood.
 
Oh come on you know as well as I thats a load of bollocks. Cast your military commitments to one side and think outside the box. This whole regime thing is a secondary excuse the US administration and Bliar thought up when it was discovered that WMDs (the real excuse for going to war) were not present! If the US wanted a regime change then why did they do it then? Why did they happily fund and arm Saddam Hussein and then do feck all when he gassed thousands of kurds? Why did they also opt for the more violent method of removing him? There's alot of flaws in this concept.

In fact neither WMDs nor regime change are the real reasons for this war.

You can say whatever you want but the facts are that regime change was the goal of the invasion. The WMDs weren't there, but that doesn't negate the fact that regime change due to a perceived post 9/11 WMD threat was the reason for the invasion.

As to the latter part of your rant, you're really clutching at straws by attempting to link the conflicting policies of different US administrations over several decades to make a point that is utterly weak. Standard half thought out leftist BS.
 
On ITV1 they just showed kids who've lost their parents, and siblings and they've described their deaths and showed the carnage around them and then "Mark Regev" claims that it was all pre-rehearsed hamas fed propaganda, what a complete an utter cnut. We can see the fecking damage for our selves you bastard at least have the balls to fecking admit it. When the presenter put it to him that their reporter wasn't being fed a pack of lies and that gunning down a FOUR YEAR OLD and a man with a white flag was actually WRONG; he said there'll be an investigation....YEAH RIGHT like that'll conclude with any major wrong doings on Israel's part:rolleyes:
 
On ITV1 they just showed kids who've lost their parents, and siblings and they've described their deaths and showed the carnage around them and then "Mark Regev" claims that it was all pre-rehearsed hamas fed propaganda, what a complete an utter cnut. We can see the fecking damage for our selves you bastard at least have the balls to fecking admit it. When the presenter put it to him that their reporter wasn't being fed a pack of lies and that gunning down a FOUR YEAR OLD and a man with a white flag was actually WRONG; he said there'll be an investigation....YEAH RIGHT like that'll conclude with any major wrong doings on Israel's part:rolleyes:


Maybe Hamas shouldn't be driving around in UN Ambulances. It endangers not only civilians being legitimately evacuated by the UN, but international observers.

On top of that I am pretty sure it's a war crime. Kind of like pretending to be with the red cross while you are an armed combatant, or fighting as a paramilitary non-uniformed fighter. It endangers civilians deliberately.

If Palestinians are so upset over what is happening, maybe they should go out and string these Hamas thugs and gangsters up by their balls. I'm sure that would please Israel and get the peace talks rolling.

Instead however, they will support Hamas and then cry foul when a bomb lands nearby and kills a civilian.

I'm a lefty, but the hypocrisy is unbelievable here.
 
On ITV1 they just showed kids who've lost their parents, and siblings and they've described their deaths and showed the carnage around them and then "Mark Regev" claims that it was all pre-rehearsed hamas fed propaganda, what a complete an utter cnut. We can see the fecking damage for our selves you bastard at least have the balls to fecking admit it. When the presenter put it to him that their reporter wasn't being fed a pack of lies and that gunning down a FOUR YEAR OLD and a man with a white flag was actually WRONG; he said there'll be an investigation....YEAH RIGHT like that'll conclude with any major wrong doings on Israel's part:rolleyes:

You have enough evidence for being at least as critical of Palestinian claims as you are of Israeli spokesmen.


 
If Palestinians are so upset over what is happening, maybe they should go out and string these Hamas thugs and gangsters up by their balls...Instead however, they will support Hamas and then cry foul when a bomb lands nearby and kills a civilian.
To be fair, given what we've read recently about Hamas arresting, torturing and killing "collaborators" and Fatah party members, most Palestinians are probably scared to death of crossing Hamas. Unlikely the populace will be stringing up anyone by their balls - Hamas seem to want that right all to themselves.
 
Wibble is right that Israel did what almost all nations would have done. The Provisional IRA hit the mainland with a handful of attacks over thirty years, and we responded with a fair few small-scale atrocities of our own - much like the Israeli response to the comparable, if much more intensive, suicide-bombing campaign during the second Intifada. Had the IRA hit mainland cities with fifty-odd rockets a day, however crap, we would have gone in hard, and with air power too. Because any response that did not stop the rockets would have been political suicide. The public aren't very squeamish when it comes to enemy deaths - after all, the US and UK have recently killed thousands in Afghanistan and Iraq, under no existential threat at all.

The question occupying me, which Mozza raised the other day, is not whether an invasion was justified, but whether there was an element of deterrence by collective punishment in the large-scale death and destruction that resulted. Is that ‘just what happens’ when your enemy hides in civilian areas and won’t come out to play, or was a certain amount of general death and damage part of the plan? You have to suspect that those hits on UN buildings were not accidental – there was a message to the Palestinians (there’s nowhere to hide), and a message to the UN in Gaza (if you don’t have neutrality you don’t have immunity). Certainly Israeli commentators are saying that the Lebanon ‘defeat’ should now be reappraised in the light of Hezbollah’s passivity during this war. Their civilian populations, it is argued, would not tolerate that level of destruction again in the service of someone else’s struggle.

The problem with this approach, whether it’s effective or not, is that it’s simply not acceptable. If that is part of the strategic thinking, then it really is state terrorism and a war crime. The lines are blurry – some retaliatory strikes are reasonable – but deliberate destruction of whole swathes of civilian areas in order to make a point is not. Israelis often say that with neighbours like theirs, they can’t afford to project anything except ruthlessness. But then you have to decide whether you want to be like a Western-style democracy or a middle eastern basket-case. If collective punishment is any part of your strategy, then you’re drifting towards the latter.

It’s also not going to work. It’s true the election of unashamedly racist, religiously fanatical Iranian proxies was very bad news for Israel. But punishing the population with blockades and destruction won’t make Hamas lose legitimacy. All it does is give the people nothing to lose, and that’s nothing but good for a radical organisation like Hamas.

As for Hamas, they deliberately brought this disaster onto their already battered people. It's not like they thought the Israelis would relax the blockade if they just bombed them for a while. They know the Israelis, they knew full well what they would do, and their leadership in Damascus continued to refuse ceasefires to the bitter end while their civilians died. They also launched their attacks in the run-up to an election, and during an American presidential interregnum, when they knew Israel had a free hand.

The explanation for this decision captures the extraordinary cynicism of Hamas: they want their own people to die. They want them to die for publicity. If the Israelis had killed ten times as many civilians, Hamas would have been delighted. As we speak they are happily torturing and murdering dozens of their Fatah brothers in Gaza. This is not a political party in any sense we normally understand it: a powerful section of it is a death cult, who by its own words "love death as you love life".

They have also done much to legitimate the hard-line Israeli belief in the necessity of ruthlessness. After all, the experience of unilateral withdrawal from both Lebanon and Gaza seems to bear this out. Hamas is just as responsible for the blockade as Israel: a party genuinely interested in a two-state solution would not have responded to the withdrawal by firing rockets. Trust can only develop by small steps, and much as the return of both territories was long overdue, it’s unrealistic to expect the Israelis to withdraw and then accept rocket attacks and the digging of tunnels designed to abduct their personnel, without doing something to stop it.

Nevertheless, the Israelis have to relax the blockade. It’s brutal, it’s counterproductive, and it’s collective punishment. For Israel, and for the non-settled parts of the West Bank, a truce means trade, development, building lives. But it’s not like that in Gaza under a truce - life’s still utterly shit, so there’s no real incentive to continue. The status-quo is not static: a general stand-off and lack of hostilities is alright in Israel, but means strangulation in Gaza, and a swelling settlement population on the West Bank. That doesn’t mean Hamas weren’t wrong - despicable, in fact - to refuse to extend the truce - they were. But it does mean it’s time to talk to them, death-cult or not - because there isn’t any other way of stopping this. Israel currently has a strengthened strategic position and unprecedented support from Sunni Arab leaders. Now is the time for negotiations.

Fantastic piece of analysis Pletch which I enjoyed reading a great deal. I think you have pretty much summed up the situation in your statement that 'The status-quo is not static'. And with the Neo Cons now out of favour in the US, the next few months will be fascinating.

Come what may, what has happened in the past few weeks has happened. I think it would do the whole world alot of good is Israel was censored for its actions.

Its time to change the script on this. Just because many have failed to do so in the past does not mean it can't be achieved in the future. I live in hope.
 
I wouldn't think collective punishment was some sort of a strategic plan. I

They chose the battlefield, these are the results. Unfortunately, as you have pointed out, they don't really care.

Here is my problem with the views that you represent: You are so blinded in your misguided beliefs that you try and defend the indefensible.

The actions of the Israelis these past few weeks, evidenced now by the devastation that we can all see on our TV screens shows without doubt that this was an attack on an entire population. It was largely indiscriminate else, 40-50% of the dead would not be women and children.

Call a spade a spade, its so obvious to anyone who observes this tragedy from the outside.
 
It was largely indiscriminate else, 40-50% of the dead would not be women and children.

Call a spade a spade, its so obvious to anyone who observes this tragedy from the outside.

I cannot believe you actually believe what you are saying here. Gaza is one of the most densely populated locations in the world. I don't think you really grasp what you are talking about here, and I don't think you really understand the devastation a modern military power could deliver if it attacked indiscriminately.

There was nothing indiscriminate about the Israeli invasion. In Urban warfare civilian casualties are always going to be massive. When the enemy shelters in areas that civilians gather at, and shelter in these areas, the casualties will be even higher.

In spite of this, a 50% casualty figure (allegedly) inflicted on Civilians is very low. Israel was using predominately precision guided munitions. If Israel was attacking indiscriminately it wouldn't have been 700~ dead civilians, it would have been 7000, or 70,000 or more.

Finally, everyone who is observing this from the outside supports your views? Are you sure? I'm pretty sure you are at the very least misrepresenting the facts (as per usual) or flat out lying, which is SOP for you.

You've come into this thread and called Israel Nazi's when clearly there is NOTHING even remotely similar. You have a bone to pick, you're extremely biased because of this and you are talking out your ass.