point is, there has been a whole lot of aggression on both sides. Citing just one war and saying 'we were attacked, so we kept some territory in compensation' is fallacious, since there were all those other wars (1956 in particular) where you were the aggressor. And, in this day and age, just because you won the war and seized the land, this does not make that land yours.
Scores die in Israeli air strikes
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
point is, there has been a whole lot of aggression on both sides. Citing just one war and saying 'we were attacked, so we kept some territory in compensation' is fallacious, since there were all those other wars (1956 in particular) where you were the aggressor. And, in this day and age, just because you won the war and seized the land, this does not make that land yours.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/...ael_palestinians/maps/html/israel_founded.stm
this is the original UN resolution of 1947 for the partition of what is now Israel plus the occupied territories. As you see, both the West Bank and Gaza lie deep in the Arab zone. I do not think you can claim that the BMW was yours originally.
More significantly, there is the armistice line of 1949, an armistice which you yourselves signed. You gave that BMW away and then stole it back!
no, I didn't say that. But before the Alliyots started the Jews formed one tenth of the population. Similar ratio to that the Celtic fringe nations would have had of London's population.
To people who live on the 1/4 it matters little who gets the 3/4. Especially given that, as you say, Jordanians did not treat them well at all. It is their land, and to have what they perceive to be a foriegn power dominating it is not going to be welcomed. But when people who lived there for years and years were taken over, are partially driven out in 1948 by a minority who suddenly became the power... there is no surprise this caused resentment.
Take Lebanon for an example. If the Armenians say 'we've lived here for the longest, we want to have our own state in Lebanon', there would be a bloodbath, the others would not accept this. Same in Palestine in 1948. I am not saying the Palestinians are right in wanting Israel to go, just that I understand why they feel this way.
THat's exactly what I was thinking... and I'm also shocked that Israel played right into this little trap. Either that or they don't care, and are contemplating taking the fight further east, like into Lebanon.
I don't get Hamas, why do they keep attacking Israeli civilians? If they hate their gov't so much, why not orchestrate a terrorist attack on their military targets. Firing random rocket salvos into cities and restaurants isn't exactly going to endear you to the general public.
No surprise here from israel. Use a sledgehammer to kill a fly. pathetic as always
Israel Masses Troops, Tanks For Possible Ground Invasion
latest news....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
latest news....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
Well if there's any truth in those articles it will get much worse before it gets better.
I'm curious what you think consists of a measured response, for Israel, who now have an extra 500,000 in harms way, due to Hamas acquiring more long range rockets to hit Israeli cities. Rockets they have smuggled in from across the borders along lines that should be relieving Gaza's supplys of humanitraian and economic aid.
Truth is they didn't have many other options. Hamas set their trap well, unfortunately..
You are correct.
That's tragic indeed
That's bollox. In 2006 Israel demolished the Dahia quaerter in Beirut, which was a Hizballah stronghold, while life in Christian East Beirut were largely unaffected (we have a couple of Lebanese poters here for further clarifications). Similarly, instead of waving figures regarding the current crisis try to understand that Israel did pretty well in targetting Hamas personnel whereas again the Arab instigators were TARGETTING Israeli civilians.
It's undeerstandable that both sides are emotional in this debate, but if we stick to the facts we can do a better job than just ending up with another CE time travel.
That's been tried, and is tried as we speak. The concept of land-exchange has been offered before, and is currently being discussed by Olmert and Mahmoud Abbas. However, judging by the Gaza exercise it's pretty tricky handing any territories to Fatah administration only for their men to be chucked out of windows by Hamas the following week and the territories being used as a front base for Iranian forces.
This is true, the Dahie quarter in Beirut was reduced to a very large, dusty, football pitch. But also, most bridges and major roads in the whole of Lebanon were demolished unnecessarily and without no real motives, and the whole of Lebanon is still paying the heavy price of reconstructing those major lines of transportation. (Hizbollah were never going to be using major highways to run away!)
However, the rest of the majorly Muslim dominated quarters of Beirut were not as affected, but still slept in fear of being struck by a missile.
The Christian East Beirut, and the rest of the Christian regions in Lebanon for that matter, had no real idea of what was going on.
I'm afraid it's not as simple as this. Unfortunately, Hamas adds a religious aspect to the conflict which makes things more complicated, as if the national clash wasn't complicated enough.
As for the dogs analogy, there's one story I wanted to share with you as I suppose what you see/hear on the news are rubble, bodies and figures. Last week there was this Israeli woman from a kibbutz just outside the GS interviewed on the radio. Her kids (11 the oldest) have been sleeping in their parent's bed for months and often refusing to go to school because of the "harmless" rockets falling on their kibbutz regularly. When she said she felt their were let down by the government inability to respond she said that with no real sense of "revenge". She feared for the lives of their Gazan friends (whom they send money monthly), but you have to realise that there are 8 year olds in Southern Israel who don't know what it's like living without a rocket threat. You can't jusge that by number of casualties and measure a "moderate" response. It has to stop.
Israel withdrew from Sinai in 1977, Lebanon in 2000 and most recently from Gaza. We're not very good at expanding at all.
There isn't enough territory for any buffer zone. The "Green Line" is about 10-15 miles from the Med Sea in some areas.
And no UN forces, than you very much.
Any word about peace with a neighbouring Jewish state once a Palestinian state is founded along those 1967 borders?
Wrong- we were attacked from Lebanon. As for 1967, you know it's a weak one. If not, the naval blockade by Egypt was an act of war according to international law, so there you go...
The vast majority in Israel see no solution other than a two-state one. The Palestinians are yet to agree to the concept. Mind you, when suggesting that the future border between the two countries would pass west of the Green Line to include more Arabs in the Palestinian state (territory exchange) the Arabs oppose the idea! Moreover, those suggesting this proposal are called racists by the Arabs themselves.
There you go. People are "starving" in Gaza but GRAD missiles are finding their way through despite the "blockade".
That's tragic indeed
The only sad thing in here torn rubber, is that some people will never condemn Israel no matter how many innocent lives they have taken. Just convince yourself with whatever bollocks you want.
Its a well known documented fact by the United Nations, that the people in Gaza are suffering from the one of the worst living conditions on earth because of this racist blockade. During the six month cease-fire (which Israel broke first in November), medicine, food, clean water, petrol, and electricity are luxuries that they don't have. Lets see your poeple live with that. You should feck off with all your excuses to this attack. The fact is that it has made Israel safer, it will not wipe out Hamas, new people will be joining Hamas everyday. Israel is a less safe place right now, and they knew it from the first place. Blood thirsty murdererous maniacs. You would expect much better from a nation thats been through perhaps worse yet similar conditions.
Shame on you.
Hamas has said it'll agree to a two state solution, so has Fatah, you can drop this bullshit now.
The reality is Palestine has been a killing field before the rockets came into existence in the Gaza. There is no guarantee they will live in peace if they stop. Rockets is just another feeble excuse for Israeli aggression.
Gaza has not been handed back. Last time I checked it was still under occupation, caged from all sides.
Gaza has not been handed back. Last time I checked it was still under occupation, caged from all sides.
Only Fitzjames in this thread has been spot on.
Both sides need to wise the feck up, stop playing the blame game and using the 'what aboutery.'
This goes for some of the posters on here who just descend into the same old petty debate every time- without an even cursory attempt to understand the other side.
Both Israelis and Palestinians need to let go of their pride and their warped historys and look to themselves for a solution.
If they don't then I don't give a feck- they can blow each other to bits and the world will be a better place for it.
Both sides need to wise the feck up, stop playing the blame game and using the 'what aboutery.'
This goes for some of the posters on here who just descend into the same old petty debate every time- without an even cursory attempt to understand the other side.
Both Israelis and Palestinians need to let go of their pride and their warped historys and look to themselves for a solution.
If they don't then I don't give a feck- they can blow each other to bits and the world will be a better place for it.
So much rubbish is spouted on words by certain stupid leaders regards Arabs wanting to destroy Israel. The FACT on the ground is Israel with their brutal occupation and raids are denying the right of the Palestinians to exist.
The man is indeed a genius.
But then he is an old guy who was just 15 when he watched the Six Day War on TV in 1967. literally in black and whilte and with a black in white mindset about plucky little Israel.
The situation is much more complex.
And he has never lived more than 38 miles from Belfast. So the man has probably seen and heard enough "what aboutery" to last several life times.
Probably hes a man who knows that no "solution" in the Middle East is totally perfect but still better than the alternative. And that watching children and grandchildren grow up in a better environment that you dreamed possible...is actually what life is all about.
Took a long time for that notion to take hold in Belfast but for years there had at least been signs that people were getting their heads round that concept. It took a while to sink in that they/we did not actually hate each other as much as they/we thought they/we did.
I get no feeling that this is how people in Israel/Palestine "REALLY" feel.
The hatred there is 100 times worse.
Historical reasons of course that I wont attempt to minimise.
Nevertheless as the frustration of people like Slugger and others shows.......we have lost what interest we had in listening to accusation and counter accusation. That doesnt mean we are not sympathetic to BOTH causes.
But people with agendas presume to tell us that we should only have sympathy for "their" side. How dare we not have 100% sympathy for them. And then the shroud waving starts.
Then the defiant cry that "we DONT need or want your sympathy" but "er could you please support us militarily (Israel) or economically (Palestine)" and could you please send military personnel to support our broader agenda (Afghanistan, Iraq) the so called war on Terror) or allow your civilians to be blown to bits in attacks as we show you our anger" (Palestine and 9/11).
Enough.
If they dont care about their own patch of Earth, theres no pressing need for me or anyone else to do it for them.
Vatican's reaction that captures the very essence of evenhandedness: "Hamas is a prisoner to a logic of hate; Israel to a logic of faith in force as the best response to hate."
Hamas definitely don't have the interests of the Palestinian people at heart though. From an even remotely utilitarian or practical point of view, if you're sitting next to a big bear, don't keep poking it with a stick. Even if you're sitting in a big pile of shit next to the bear, poking it over and over with a stick will only make things worse.
I personally think Hamas is far more ideologically entrenched in the idea of fighting Israel than it is in working towards a better quality of life for the people it supposedly represents.
Having said that, the hatred they feel is understandable, if not excusable.
I personally think Hamas is far more ideologically entrenched in the idea of fighting Israel than it is in working towards a better quality of life for the people it supposedly represents.
Having said that, the hatred they feel is understandable, if not excusable.
Thats a pile of shit.
There is nothing logical about this. Human irrationality at its worst.
Interesting document. Someone had posted it on the Caf before.
What I disagree with is when it says that “Jimmy Carter and all leftists in the world support the Arab cause”. I would by all means define myself a leftist, but you won’t have me buy into the “Arab lamb, Israeli invader” crap.
But it happens, I admit.
In fact I find it rather stupid that people end up taking part according to their political affiliation, instead of reading and getting an opinion of their own – the usual wordy smokescreen not to see reality for what it is.
Apart from this, and the “who’s right-who’s wrong” debate, when innocent people like you and me lose their lives and have their houses destroyed, it’s a sad sad sad thing.
They were democratically elected.
Good point my wedgy friend. I am also very much on the left of the political landscape on most issues...but I don't see why that has to correlate into a totally one sided view of the Israel-Palestine issue.
And? Democracy doesn't mean that bad governments can't be elected. Especially if the electorate is ill-informed, uneducated or indoctrinated.
Do you think Hamas' primary objective is to improve the quality of life for the Palestinians? If that is really their number one priority, then they have a very strange way of going about it.
Reasonable response.
I dont care what anyone tells me, the way it has been, is and will be is this simple equation to the Israelis:
Israeli blood >>>>>>> Palestinian Blood
No matter how you try to rationalize, deny or whatever it is, killing over 300 and critically injuring over 1000 people as a response to a single death is inhumane.
The most tragic aspect of all this is that we've all become immune to these numbers and figures, because thats all it is to most of us. Numbers and figures.
And attacking hamas targets? How is a police graduation ceremony a hamas target? Just toss a rocket in a building and hope a hamas member is one of the 300 people who died?
True, both sides have got to sort things out, but brutally destroying a whole area and taking so many lives in one fell swoop is just out of order.
Palestinian suffering has not changed for 60 years despite many government changes. Blaming Hamas for all problems encountered is a public relations exercise.
I do agree lobbing rockets onto your neighbours is not clever, and is hardly going to win you friends, but these rockets are a recent phenomenon. The problems between these neighbours go a long way back.
I can assure you Palestinians are politically very knowledgeable.
These are flaws in a democratic system. Majority of people are ill-informed, illiterate and indoctrinated in many democracies.
Yep, I couldn't agree more.
Out of interest, have you spent much time in Palestine or Israel Sults?
Sadly this is true. Same has been proven in the recent Lebanon war; the destruction of Beiruit in retaliation to the capturing of 3 Israeli soldiers.
Mmhhh….. Sounds interesting....
Joking apart, the Jews did NOT come out of thin air to build a state of their own. This is the focal point that people must understand.
Until the general perception even OUT of the Middle East is that they popped out of nowhere shouting “Ours! Ours! Make way!”, there are not many chances that we’ll ever have a serious debate. Actually, it intoxicates any debate.