Rather what is sad is people like you will never accept the truth. That Hamas and not Israel are the real problem. I bet they are very happy with what Israel has done over the last 3 days. Their recruitment drive gather more Arab hate against Israel will now swell.
Scores die in Israeli air strikes
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
Thus says Kemo
For the same reason Hitler rose to power. Hate ruled the day. Especially after the moron Sharon and Dubya went out of their way to weekean and isolate the late Arafat, the one man who could have helped bring peace between the two sides.They were democratically elected.
Yep, I couldn't agree more.
Out of interest, have you spent much time in Palestine or Israel Sults?
I have visited some of the historic Islamic sites in that part of the world.
Rather what is sad is people like you will never accept the truth. That Hamas and not Israel are the real problem. I bet they are very happy with what Israel has done over the last 3 days. Their recruitment drive gather more Arab hate against Israel will now swell.
Both are to blame, Chief.
Rather what is sad is people like you will never accept the truth. That Hamas and not Israel are the real problem. I bet they are very happy with what Israel has done over the last 3 days. Their recruitment drive gather more Arab hate against Israel will now swell.
Hamas came to power a few years ago. There's been no peace in that region for 60 years. Despite government changes on both sides problems remain.
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
Thus says Kemo
That's the maddening thing. If Hamas really cared about Palestinians they'd not be smuggling in more weapons to strike at Israel, in a city that is caged in on all sides and in desperate need of relief from the blockade. Instead they prefer to keep on annoying Israel, and now Egypt, the one nation that could have helped the thousands of trapped innocent Palestinians caught in a conflict that isn't of their causing or choosing. Their every action simply makes the plight of Gaza's many innocent citizens worse and worse. But they don't give a flying feck.There you go. People are "starving" in Gaza but GRAD missiles are finding their way through despite the "blockade".
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
Thus says Kemo
Yes. But Hamas' blame is greater. Their insane activities are costing the lives and well being of many of their kinsmen. That is the worst betrayal of all. Is all that a worthy cost, for a few Israelite lives?Both are to blame, Chief.
anything about now
MUFC lad living in a matriel world
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- 6,503
There are huge demonstrations in front of the Egyptian embassy here.
The funny thing is that Hamas are the ones who 'broke' the ceasefire that the Egyptians helped put in place, by firing up to 80 rockets a day into Israel.
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
Thus says Kemo
There should be. They really should be letting innocent people flee across the border. Till Israel is done with their anti Hamas operation.There are huge demonstrations in front of the Egyptian embassy here.
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
Thus says Kemo
True. But these catalysts of hate have been around for ages. Hamas in one side, idiots like Sharon on the other. Rabin and Arafat both had the right idea. Peace and non violence was worth going for. But Rabin was murdered by some mad man for it and Arafat weakened to such an extent people turned to Hamas out of hatred and indignance.Hamas came to power a few years ago. There's been no peace in that region for 60 years. Despite government changes on both sides problems remain.
anything about now
MUFC lad living in a matriel world
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And? Democracy doesn't mean that bad governments can't be elected. Especially if the electorate is ill-informed, uneducated or indoctrinated.
Do you think Hamas' primary objective is to improve the quality of life for the Palestinians? If that is really their number one priority, then they have a very strange way of going about it.
BINGO! A couple months ago before the Olympics, when the issue of democracy in China was brought up this was the point i was trying to make. The chinese people, besides in big cities like Shanghai and Beijing, are very ill informed about politics and are not ready for a full out democracy. So are the Palestinians, they think Hamas will help them liberate Gaza and drive out the Israelis, they promise them all sorts of things and at the end of the day they jeopardize their lives by firing missiles into Israeli cities and provoking them! Even their suicide bombings injure and kill Palestinians.
And at the end of the day, Israel still recognizes the democratically elected Hamas. Imagine if Mexico or Cuba fired missiles into American cities. The US army would be there within hours, storm their government facilities, capture their leaders and install a new party.
GAngel
Full Member
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
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- 3,354
There should be. They really should be letting innocent people flee across the border. Till Israel is done with their anti Hamas operation.
Being the devil's advocate here who decides who's innocent. How can you tell a civilian from a hamas member who use women,children and the elderly in there attacks as well?
And on the pals side what do the families do who can't go to work because of being threatened with death by stray airstrikes and artillary shells.
Lucky for me i'm supposed to be over there in march for a couple conferences.
Mozza
It’s Carrick you know
The funny thing is that Hamas are the ones who 'broke' the ceasefire that the Egyptians helped put in place, by firing up to 80 rockets a day into Israel.
No they didn't, the ceasefire was to last 6 months, in those 6 months life in Gaza got worse, why would a ceasefire continue in those circumstaces
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
Thus says Kemo
Good question. I'd suggest the ones the Hamas militants are shooting at on the border crossing.Being the devil's advocate here who decides who's innocent. How can you tell a civilian from a hamas member who use women,children and the elderly in there attacks as well?
Hide and pray.And on the pals side what do the families do who can't go to work because of being threatened with death by stray airstrikes and artillary shells.
God go with youLucky for me i'm supposed to be over there in march for a couple conferences.
Amir
Full Member
Reasonable response.
I dont care what anyone tells me, the way it has been, is and will be is this simple equation to the Israelis:
Israeli blood >>>>>>> Palestinian Blood
No matter how you try to rationalize, deny or whatever it is, killing over 300 and critically injuring over 1000 people as a response to a single death is inhumane.
First of all, this was not a response to one death, or any particular death. This was a response to EIGHT years of missiles which killed several people, wounded hundreds, put an entire region of our nation under a regular threat which at times completely halted the lives of hundred of thousands and in time has threatened other cities and regions.
Secondly, well, maybe Israeli blood is more important. I mean, everytime a prisoner exchange or, a body exchange, is set up, Israel is always forced to give a lot more than it gets. So maybe that is the correct equation - but we didn't invent it, our enemies did.
You sit on a nice little perch, preaching comfortably from your safe havens. I doubt many of you would have reacted in the same way had YOU been regularly threatened by missiles. No country can accept such a situation, but WE HAVE for years. We tried to talk, we tried to reason, and it didn't work. Will this resolve everything? I doubt it will resolve ANYTHING, but obviously the leaders of this country - who have shown nothing but amazing patience over a long period of time - believe it will help PROTECT ISRAELI CITIZENS. Which surely is the bare minumum any country should give its people.
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
Thus says Kemo
Rather you should be asking why life got worse.No they didn't, the ceasefire was to last 6 months, in those 6 months life in Gaza got worse, why would a ceasefire continue in those circumstaces
Mozza
It’s Carrick you know
Because Israel has blockaded the territory completely, land, air and seaRather you should be asking why life got worse.
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
Thus says Kemo
CorrectFirst of all, this was not a response to one death, or any particular death. This was a response to EIGHT years of missiles which killed several people, wounded hundreds, put an entire region of our nation under a regular threat which at times completely halted the lives of hundred of thousands and in time has threatened other cities and regions.
Secondly, well, maybe Israeli blood is more important. I mean, everytime a prisoner exchange or, a body exchange, is set up, Israel is always forced to give a lot more than it gets. So maybe that is the correct equation - but we didn't invent it, our enemies did.
You sit on a nice little perch, preaching comfortably from your safe havens. I doubt many of you would have reacted in the same way had YOU been regularly threatened by missiles. No country can accept such a situation, but WE HAVE for years. We tried to talk, we tried to reason, and it didn't work. Will this resolve everything? I doubt it will resolve ANYTHING, but obviously the leaders of this country - who have shown nothing but amazing patience over a long period of time - believe it will help PROTECT ISRAELI CITIZENS. Which surely is the bare minumum any country should give its people.
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
Thus says Kemo
You think they blockaded it out of plain malice? That they had no cause to?Because Israel has blockaded the territory completely, land, air and sea
Mozza
It’s Carrick you know
Nothing that justifies jailing 1.5 million men, women and childrenYou think they blockaded it out of plain malice? That they had no cause to?
ukbob
Caf's Coolest Rag n Bone man
Hey folks, you think this is bad. Just wait until sometime next year!
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
Thus says Kemo
Right, Hamas rockets and other terrorist activities endangering thousands of Israeli lives wasn't just cause.Nothing that justifies jailing 1.5 million men, women and children
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
Thus says Kemo
I fear the carnage that will take place once the ground offensive begins.Hey folks, you think this is bad. Just wait until sometime next year!
Mozza
It’s Carrick you know
Right, Hamas rockets and other terrorist activities endangering thousands of Israeli lives wasn't just cause.
Not to collectively punish 1.5 million people
holyland red
"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
Its a well known documented fact by the United Nations, that the people in Gaza are suffering from the one of the worst living conditions on earth because of this racist blockade. During the six month cease-fire (which Israel broke first in November), medicine, food, clean water, petrol, and electricity are luxuries that they don't have. Lets see your poeple live with that. You should feck off with all your excuses to this attack. The fact is that it has made Israel safer, it will not wipe out Hamas, new people will be joining Hamas everyday. Israel is a less safe place right now, and they knew it from the first place. Blood thirsty murdererous maniacs. You would expect much better from a nation thats been through perhaps worse yet similar conditions.
Shame on you.
The debate can be so much more constructive if we stick to the facts:
Gaza truce shaken as four Qassams slam into west Negev
Last update - 21:06 24/06/2008
Four Qassam rockets fired from Gaza struck Sderot and the surrounding area Tuesday afternoon, further imperiling a brittle truce declared six days ago.
One of the rockets struck a vacant house in Sderot and two others hit the city. A fourth rocket exploded in an open area in the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/995738.html
* Thanks for your concerns, but there are no hungry Gazans despite the poverty there.
* Petrol is cheaper in the GS than it is in Israel as a result of the extensive smuggling from sinai.
* We supply the Palestinians with their electricity needs. Ironically, Hamas uses it for its rocket factories, and then targets the power plant in Israel- the one that supplies the Gaza Strip the electricity! In a classic analogy to their disregard for human lives, they don't care if electricity supply to Gaza is stopped as long as that for Israel is also interrupted.
First of all, this was not a response to one death, or any particular death. This was a response to EIGHT years of missiles which killed several people, wounded hundreds, put an entire region of our nation under a regular threat which at times completely halted the lives of hundred of thousands and in time has threatened other cities and regions.
Secondly, well, maybe Israeli blood is more important. I mean, everytime a prisoner exchange or, a body exchange, is set up, Israel is always forced to give a lot more than it gets. So maybe that is the correct equation - but we didn't invent it, our enemies did.
You sit on a nice little perch, preaching comfortably from your safe havens. I doubt many of you would have reacted in the same way had YOU been regularly threatened by missiles. No country can accept such a situation, but WE HAVE for years. We tried to talk, we tried to reason, and it didn't work. Will this resolve everything? I doubt it will resolve ANYTHING, but obviously the leaders of this country - who have shown nothing but amazing patience over a long period of time - believe it will help PROTECT ISRAELI CITIZENS. Which surely is the bare minumum any country should give its people.
I understand where you're coming from Amir.
Let me turn this around - for a few minutes become a Palestinian (apologies if that is an insult). They have also endured many years of sub-standard life, imprisoned in the birth of their own land with very little hope for the future. Their leaders have also tried to talk, reason without any success. Like your own country I very much doubt the Palestinians enjoy this situation. Where do we go buddy?
Surely the Palestinians can't just sit in a corner and accept this terrible situation?
Red Dreams
Full Member
as long as you have the stated goal of a party or group, the destruction of the other party or group, you just cannot negotiate peace can you?
like I said earlier, this needs thrid party governments strong hands on engagement before we can even see these people get to the table.
like I said earlier, this needs thrid party governments strong hands on engagement before we can even see these people get to the table.
holyland red
"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
Hamas has said it'll agree to a two state solution, so has Fatah, you can drop this bullshit now.
No, it didn't. Hudna means feck all, just as the recent Tahadiya did. These are not equivalent to peace or truce.
holyland red
"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
The reality is Palestine has been a killing field before the rockets came into existence in the Gaza. There is no guarantee they will live in peace if they stop. Rockets is just another feeble excuse for Israeli aggression.
Gaza has not been handed back. Last time I checked it was still under occupation, caged from all sides.
Could it be that the Palestinians like being caged, hence their insistance on caging themselves:
EU monitors flee Gaza crossing
European observers at Rafah crossing take off due to wave of PA abductions; crossing closed
Ali Waked Latest Update: 03.14.06, 19:36 / Israel News
Fearing for their safety: European monitors at the Rafah crossing left their posts Tuesday afternoon, Palestinian sources reported.
The Europeans apparently decided to leave the crossing after being instructed to do so in light of fears for their safety, after more than a dozen foreign nationals were abducted in the Gaza Strip and West Bank in protest of the IDF's Jericho operation Tuesday.
Mozza
It’s Carrick you know
No, it didn't. Hudna means feck all, just as the recent Tahadiya did. These are not equivalent to peace or truce.
They are the equivalent of peace, Israel isn't interested in a peace deal which is why it rejects the terms
Mozza
It’s Carrick you know
as long as you have the stated goal of a party or group, the destruction of the other party or group, you just cannot negotiate peace can you?
like I said earlier, this needs thrid party governments strong hands on engagement before we can even see these people get to the table.
Yes you can, the whole point of the peace deal is to reach terms by which they agree to stop killing each other
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
Thus says Kemo
Yes. Its' more justifiable than your realize. Israel can't let it's citizens be held to ransom by cowardly terrorists, threaning their citizens. Yet these terrorists hide amongst the populace of Gaza. Unless that populace can somehow from within, or with extrenal help drive out Hamas themselves they will forever be caught in the cross fire. For Hamas deliberately antagonises Israel while hiding it's miltia and buildings in densely populated areas. All for the sole purpose of making Israel look bad and generating more anti Israel hatred. Sacrificing hundreds of thousands of it's own brethren for such a stupid reason.Not to collectively punish 1.5 million people
Bottom line, unless the Arab's themselves, even in neighnorung countries, take it upon themselves ot rid Gaz of Hamas, the many innocent Palestinians in that place will continue to suffer the consqeuences of Hamas insanity. Without an end in sight.
ukbob
Caf's Coolest Rag n Bone man
Let's face it folks your views on this attack will be from an Arab or Jewish perspective or from your political views or whatever paper or TV news you watch.
Your ideals or humanistc views count for nothing. This all goes back to when the State of Israel was formed. What they did was to make something of the land for their people. That is what should be happening in Gaza right now and please don't go bleating about American aid for the jews. The people of Gaza right now would get more than enough aid to build a better place as they would in the past. It goes much deper than that though as we will find out later.
Your ideals or humanistc views count for nothing. This all goes back to when the State of Israel was formed. What they did was to make something of the land for their people. That is what should be happening in Gaza right now and please don't go bleating about American aid for the jews. The people of Gaza right now would get more than enough aid to build a better place as they would in the past. It goes much deper than that though as we will find out later.
ukbob
Caf's Coolest Rag n Bone man
Yes. Its' more justifiable than your realize. Israel can't let it's citizens be held to ransom by cowardly terrorists, threaning their citizens. Yet these terrorists hide amongst the populace of Gaza. Unless that populace can somehow from within, or with extrenal help drive out Hamas themselves they will forever be caught in the cross fire. For Hamas deliberately antagonises Israel while hiding it's miltia and buildings in densely populated areas. All for the sole purpose of making Israel look bad and generating more anti Israel hatred. Sacrificing hundreds of thousands of it's own brethren for such a stupid reason.
Bottom line, unless the Arab's themselves, even in neighnorung countries, take it upon themselves ot rid Gaz of Hamas, the many innocent Palestinians in that place will continue to suffer the consqeuences of Hamas insanity. Without an end in sight.
In a nutshell!
Mozza
It’s Carrick you know
Yes. Its' more justifiable than your realize. Israel can't let it's citizens be held to ransom by cowardly terrorists, threaning their citizens. Yet these terrorists hide amongst the populace of Gaza. Unless that populace can somehow from within, or with extrenal help drive out Hamas themselves they will forever be caught in the cross fire. For Hamas deliberately antagonises Israel while hiding it's miltia and buildings in densely populated areas. All for the sole purpose of making Israel look bad and generating more anti Israel hatred. Sacrificing hundreds of thousands of it's own brethren for such a stupid reason.
Bottom line, unless the Arab's themselves, even in neighnorung countries, take it upon themselves ot rid Gaz of Hamas, the many innocent Palestinians in that place will continue to suffer the consqeuences of Hamas insanity. Without an end in sight.
Right then, the next time a member of your family commits a crime I guess you'll be happy when your entire family is put under house arrest, starved and bombed
Amir
Full Member
I understand where you're coming from Amir.
Let me turn this around - for a few minutes become a Palestinian (apologies if that is an insult). They have also endured many years of sub-standard life, imprisoned in the birth of their own land with very little hope for the future. Their leaders have also tried to talk, reason without any success. Like your own country I very much doubt the Palestinians enjoy this situation. Where do we go buddy?
Surely the Palestinians can't just sit in a corner and accept this terrible situation?
I certainly understand the other side, or atleast I think I do. The problem is that the way I see it, there are TWO other sides - the leaders and the people. Both aspire to different things, and for the leaders in Gaza, Hamas, the safety and well being of its people is not the most important thing.
Those people may have elected Hamas a few years ago, but they did not 'elect' the internal war which then tore them into two - One part led by Hamas and one led by Abu Mazen. Now the half led by Hamas is stuck with them, and I'm not sure what they can do. Overthrow them? That would cost many lives as well.
One thing I do not agree regarding what you said is 'Their leaders have also tried to talk, reason without any success'. Surely for Hamas to be remotely reasonable and able to talk to Israel, it should accept Israel's existance and not continue to declare that it's target is to destroy it. How can we seriously talk to an organization which continues to say it wants us dead and buried? We ARE willing to co-exist side by side even without an official agreement, but things like no missiles on our cities and serious negotiations for an Israeli soldier they abducted 2.5 years ago are the bare minimum.
So there are no easy solutions, which isn't earth shattering news. However, you don't see Israel bombing the people led by Abu Mazen, and we have released hundreds of prisoners to his region over the past year, so surely that shows we have the right intentions, as long as the other side does as well.
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
Thus says Kemo
In truth they are instead a helpless people, caught under the rule of brutal dictators, who prefer to sacrifice their lives rather than seize enimity towards Israel.Could it be that the Palestinians like being caged, hence their insistance on caging themselves:.............
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
Thus says Kemo
Rather I'd hand the fecker over long before it came to that. Rather then see all I love perish because of his/her stupidity.Right then, the next time a member of your family commits a crime I guess you'll be happy when your entire family is put under house arrest, starved and bombed
Mozza
It’s Carrick you know
Surely for Hamas to be remotely reasonable and able to talk to Israel, it should accept Israel's existance and not continue to declare that it's target is to destroy it.
The right to exist will be part of the final negotiated settlement, any agreement before hand means the Palestinians loose one of their bargaining chips before they even see what they get in return
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