Scores die in Israeli air strikes

Anyhow, as a means to a solution, what do you think of each of these -

Temporary ceasefire (20 days)
Permanent ceasefire
Blockade Removal
Allowance of International Media into Gaza by Israel
Allowance of food and medical aid into Gaza

Either as starting points or the end point. Feel free to add any others on.
 
TrueDream said:
So you want to sling to the fact I am not personally involved, fine, I left it out previously when you mentioned it on purpose. In this thread, I have mentioned when replying that I am not personally involved so I am bound to have a different answer.

What do you want me to do, accept killings because I am not there? I am where I am because that is where I was born and can't legally move. Not my choice. You may chose not to accept it, but I would condemn the killings if it was Britain attacking, as I condemn Islamic suicide bombers.

Forgive me as I do my best to understand the suffering you have though I can never fully understand it, but personal attacks won't take us anywhere.

It's been 24 or so pages of bickering as Red-Wedge mentioned. How about we try and find some solutions to end the long standing violence once again?
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It's not the geography, but the double standards that piss me off. There haven't been vocal and violent demostrations in London for the 1000000 deaths in Algeria or the 100,000s victims of the Darfur genocide. However, when Israel finally decides to respond to a barrage of rockets on its severeign territory you're all out of your holes like rats.

"There aren't enough of you dead to justify the response" you scream...Sorry to disappoint you, but there isn't any nice solution to this as long as Hamas doesn't accept a Jewish state in the Middle East. Until it changes its mind, I hope the scenes on TV don't interfere with your daily activities.
 
holyland red said:
It's not the geography, but the double standards that piss me off. There haven't been vocal and violent demostrations in London for the 1000000 deaths in Algeria or the 100,000s victims of the Darfur genocide. However, when Israel finally decides to respond to a barrage of rockets on its severeign territory you're all out of your holes like rats.

"There aren't enough of you dead to justify the response" you scream...Sorry to disappoint you, but there isn't any nice solution to this as long as Hamas doesn't accept a Jewish state in the Middle East. Until it changes its mind, I hope the scenes on TV don't interfere with your daily activities.
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This is where it is going wrong. All I hear is people/politions saying Hamas should just accept Israel and shut up. Does anyone actually care to look into why the psyche of the people/groups are soo against Israel. Maybe meaningful dialoge, and stopping the patronising tone of the 'accept it and stop any resistance or we'll destroy you'.
 
TrueDream said:
Anyhow, as a means to a solution, what do you think of each of these -

Temporary ceasefire (20 days)- Hamas just broke a 6-month one
Permanent ceasefire- Hamas refuses to one
Blockade Removal- AS long as II, we can't afford stocking the GS with rockets
Allowance of International Media into Gaza by Israel- already done
Allowance of food and medical aid into Gaza- already done

Either as starting points or the end point. Feel free to add any others on.
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I thought of getting 350 of yesterday's London protesters on the next BA flight to TA, and allocating 50 each to the most severly hit towns in Southern Israel. As these are primitive rockets we're talking about I bet everyone will be back safely in the UK and will be able to come up with solutions after a few days.
 
holyland red said:
These are nothing more than cheap attempts to score points on an internet forum.
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I think it's perfectly valid to post raw footage of the aftermath of a military operation. In any conflict, not just this one.
 
Member 5225 said:
This is where it is going wrong. All I hear is people/politions saying Hamas should just accept Israel and shut up. Does anyone actually care to look into why the psyche of the people/groups are soo against Israel. Maybe meaningful dialoge, and stopping the patronising tone of the 'accept it and stop any resistance or we'll destroy you'.
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I'm not sure I understand your post, but it looks like you're suggesting Israel should just accept that Hamas wants to destroy it. You are actually asking us to wait until it's capable of fulfilling its wish.

Hamas wants to destroy Israel and isn't interesteed in a dialogue with Israel. Which part of this can't you understand?
 
Member 5225 said:
This is where it is going wrong. All I hear is people/politions saying Hamas should just accept Israel and shut up. Does anyone actually care to look into why the psyche of the people/groups are soo against Israel. Maybe meaningful dialoge, and stopping the patronising tone of the 'accept it and stop any resistance or we'll destroy you'.
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Apparently dialogue is a thing of the past. Both sides would probably want something the other side can't accept instead of just talking about a ceasefire beneficial to both sides, but it's certainly worth a try. Any ideas on what would be a good outcome of the dialogue?

And holyland, you need to take a breather. Bitterness will get you nowhere. Learn to accept that somethings, be it large or small, that Israel does are not right in the way others do.
 
Member 5225 said:
Does anyone actually care to look into why the psyche of the people/groups are soo against Israel.
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Well put!
And did anyone actually care to look into Hitler's psyche, his childhood, his being rejected at the Art Academy for understanding his hatred of Jews/Gypsies/Homosexuals/Comunists....?

I mean, he must have had some reason, poor sod.
 
TrueDream said:
It's been 24 or so pages of bickering as Red-Wedge mentioned. How about we try and find some solutions to end the long standing violence once again?
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Umm, yeah, because as we all know, the solution to this age-old conflict is most likely to come from discussions on an internet forum. Ahem.
 
Member 5225 said:
This is where it is going wrong. All I hear is people/politions saying Hamas should just accept Israel and shut up. Does anyone actually care to look into why the psyche of the people/groups are soo against Israel. Maybe meaningful dialoge, and stopping the patronising tone of the 'accept it and stop any resistance or we'll destroy you'.
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When HolylandRed said that "Hamas doesn't accept Israel", he didn't mean that they refuse to give up all resistance, and meekly accept whatever Israel wants. He meant that it is in Hamas' official charter that Israel must not be allowed to exist, and that Hamas will do everything it can to bring this about.

This makes negotiation difficult.
 
Chris H said:
Umm, yeah, because as we all know, the solution to this age-old conflict is most likely to come from discussions on an internet forum. Ahem.
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No-one believes that what people say on a forum will solve anything. A forum is more about exchanging ideas and – when possible – growing as persons.

If someone criticizes a politician’s choices, it’s simply logical to have an idea of what one would have done given the same circumstances. If all we do is saying “no” to what we don’t like with no further development, it’d be as ranting against gravity because I fell off my bike.

Gravity exists and can’t be avoided. Even certain political choices might have the same nature.
Not imagining oneself in the same position as those whose choices we criticize, is intellectually dishonest.
 
Is there any estimate as to how many missiles are in Gaza and how many are smuggled in each week?


The point being made by posters here, that in time the rockets get better, which means time is in this regard on the side of Hamas is a falsehood. As the weapons get better the response by Israel will get even more disproportionately tougher. Tougher than we are currently seeing, how bad will that be?
 
Red-Wedge said:
Well put!
And did anyone actually care to look into Hitler's psyche, his childhood, his being rejected at the Art Academy for understanding his hatred of Jews/Gypsies/Homosexuals/Comunists....?

I mean, he must have had some reason, poor sod.
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err no, it's foolish comparing one man's clear stupidity with an entire region's unrest (it's not only Hamas that are weary of US/Israel)
 
holyland red said:
I'm not sure I understand your post, but it looks like you're suggesting Israel should just accept that Hamas wants to destroy it. You are actually asking us to wait until it's capable of fulfilling its wish.

Hamas wants to destroy Israel and isn't interesteed in a dialogue with Israel. Which part of this can't you understand?
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Absolutely not. As I have said a number of times, I am neutral in this and stand as a complete outsider. I just think if things were/are done more astutely, diplomatically...then this problem would not have flared up in the first place. What I mean by that is, I don't like the idea of UK/USA, etc 'giving' land to the Israeli's in the 40's or whenever Israel was formed with minimal dialogue with their (new) neighbours, and maybe just lowered their heads a little and said to the Arab's 'Look, we all know the Jews have suffered, poor guys have no where to go, we're letting go of Palestine, how about giving a little to the Jews, they'll live in peace, let you live in peace and will be grateful for the sacrifice that you are making. Simple really, what do you think?' and started on that foot, then I am sure the Arabs/Muslims/Terrorists or whatever would have enough heart to atleast listen. Maybe I am just being naive though.
 
Member 5225 said:
Simple really, what do you think?' and started on that foot, then I am sure the Arabs/Muslims/Terrorists or whatever would have enough heart to atleast listen. Maybe I am just being naive though.
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To be blunt, I think that's very naive.
 
Btw I was basing my idea after reading this:

After World War I, the League of Nations approved the British Mandate of Palestine with the intent of creating a "national home for the Jewish people." In 1947, the United Nations approved the partition of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. On May 14, 1948 the state of Israel declared independence and this was followed by a war with the surrounding Arab states, which refused to accept the plan. The Israelis were subsequently victorious in a series of wars confirming their independence and expanding the borders of the Jewish state beyond those in the UN Partition Plan. Since then, Israel has been in conflict with many of the neighboring Arab countries, resulting in several major wars and decades of violence that continue to this day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
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holyland red said:
The body count is irrelevant here. If your kid lost a limb to one of those primitive rockets you'd want your government to act. 500,000 Israelis live within Hamas rocket range. I'm not interested in finishing the job without making sure Hamas isn't going to put its hands on longer range missiles.
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I was not making a comment about a tit for tat body count, if you read my post you will see that it expresses an entirely different perspective. But, whatever. I shall not post on this knee jerk ridden thread again.
 
Member 5225 said:
Simple really, what do you think?' and started on that foot, then I am sure the Arabs/Muslims/Terrorists or whatever would have enough heart to atleast listen. Maybe I am just being naive though.
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I’m pretty sure (or want to be) that the majority of Palestinians, in the 40’s and now, just want to live in peace. The biggest problem is that part of the Palestinian society that won’t accept anything bar the destruction of Israel, no matter what.
I think there are nutters of this type on the Israeli front too, but they simply are fewer. Naïve of not, what you should accept is that a meaningful part of the Palestinian society – and for reasons that probably go down to religion, killing the infidels etc.etc. – simply is not ready to accept the existence of Israel. Erasing it from the atlas is what they are ready to give their and their children’s lives for. Full stop.

Were it not for this element, a solution would have been found already.
 
I thought the British gave up Jordan because of the arrival of an Arab army which they had no way of removing (not worth it) after the First World War.

They then did likewise with Israel after the Second World War following a successful terror campaign (including the bombing of the King David hotel).

I might be wrong though because it is a long time ago since I studied the matter.

My conclusion after the studies was that I could not definitively say who was right or wrong or when exactly all the problems started because it seems to have been going on for ever.
 
TrueDream said:
Another thing I wanted to mention is of Al Jazeera tv (English version). Many won't like it, but it feels to be the only channel that puts a bit of light into what's happening and actually wants to show what is happening. I never used to watch it, but considering what sky, bbc etc like to show, there's nothing much better.
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Absolutely agree, The US and lots of western Europe dont like it because it shows things they'd rather the western world dont see. I made a point about it but people here laughed at me as if I was no different to a Faux News viewer.
 
holyland red said:
Temporary ceasefire (20 days)- Hamas just broke a 6-month one
Permanent ceasefire- Hamas refuses to one
Blockade Removal- AS long as II, we can't afford stocking the GS with rockets
Allowance of International Media into Gaza by Israel- already done
Allowance of food and medical aid into Gaza- already done.
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1) Wrong, Israel broke the ceasefire the day Obama was elected as the next president, this is just ignored though.

2) Hamas refuses a permanent ceasefire because Palestine doest not yet have its own established nation, a permanent ceasefire is an indication that they're happy with their current situation which of course is not true.

3) Put it this way, the militants will ALWAYS find someway to smuggle in rockets and munitions, is it really worth denying the Palestinian civilians aid?

4) So why was that Israeli journalist arrested for entering Gaza?

5) So why are Israel ramming supply ships?
 
Fearless said:
Because nobody likes to see a Jew stick up for himself
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Why are you playing the religion card everytime? You've got the most powerful nation, the EU presidency and more or less every western nation giving you support and turning a blind eye to Israeli atrocities. What more do you want?
 
RedKaos said:
1) Wrong, Israel broke the ceasefire the day Obama was elected as the next president, this is just ignored though.
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We've already established previously in this thread that had already happened before Israel blasted those tunnels. So give that misconception a rest.
 
Fearless said:
Because there's a war going on with Islamic extremists.
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This isnt about the blame game, they can do that later. A ceasefire now is essential to prevent further civilian casualties, why is the US the only member of the UN to object to a ceasire? I already know the answer to that but I want to know how you lot justify it.
 
RedKaos said:
This isnt about the blame game, they can do that later. A ceasefire now is essential to prevent further civilian casualties, why is the US the only member of the UN to object to a ceasire? I already know the answer to that but I want to know how you lot justify it.
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If Hamas continue to dig tunnels and Israel persisting with thier blockade, ceasefire is a lame excuse, just a break for the two parties to warm up again for another showdown, it cannot alone guarantee anything on the longer run.

For the people trapped over there, humanitarian aid and getting life back on track is more important only then a cogenial air would be in the reckoning for the talks to start. If Hamas cannot provide that, let Israelis do it by themselves - it would atleast tone down the stance from right wing extremists on both sides when they decide to take it across the table.
 
vijay said:
If Hamas continue to build tunnels and Israel persisting with thier blockade, ceasefire is a lame excuse, just a break for the two parties to warm up again for another showdown, it cannot along guarantee anything on the longer run.
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You're missing the point, the idea of a ceasefire isnt a permanent solution, its essential used to prevent this humanitarian crisis deepening which is as we speak costing the lives of many innocents. Nations (with the exception of the US) now are not contemplating who to blame, but how to prevent the current catastrophe.
 
RedKaos said:
This isnt about the blame game, they can do that later. A ceasefire now is essential to prevent further civilian casualties, why is the US the only member of the UN to object to a ceasire? I already know the answer to that but I want to know how you lot justify it.
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Absolutely, it's blatant stupidity like this (above) that has me riled and even asking questions in the first place...
 
TrueDream said:
Anyhow, as a means to a solution, what do you think of each of these -

Temporary ceasefire (20 days)
Permanent ceasefire
Blockade Removal
Allowance of International Media into Gaza by Israel
Allowance of food and medical aid into Gaza

Either as starting points or the end point. Feel free to add any others on.
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So basically Israel backs off and lets Hamas continue to rocket them?
 
RedKaos said:
Nations (with the exception of the US) now are not contemplating who to blame, but how to prevent the current catastrophe.
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Nations (with the exception of the US) are busy trying to suck Arab cock and appease their Muslim electorate.
 
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