Obviously that's not part of the idea.
Scores die in Israeli air strikes
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Obviously that's not part of the idea.
It won't be long now until someone brings out the old "the kids would only have grown up to be terrorists anyway, so what does it matter" line to try and 'justify' it in some warped way.
Can the killing of children ever be justified? Yes, probably there are some times where it is the lesser evil. In this case? Almost certainly not.
A tactic of trying to draw the fighters out of the crowded areas should at least have been tried. I know the claim is that they had to immediately return fire, but that should have been the absolute last resort in such a scenario, and I'm not convinced it was. Though admittedly we know almost nothing about the details.
I'm no military strategist but Israel seem to be rushing about everything a little too much, when they should take their time, and be more selective in their close combat.
In the end though, I know there are bound to be civilian casualties in combat zones such as these, but that doesn't make it any less sickening.
Can the killing of children ever be justified? Yes, probably there are some times where it is the lesser evil. In this case? Almost certainly not.
A tactic of trying to draw the fighters out of the crowded areas should at least have been tried. I know the claim is that they had to immediately return fire, but that should have been the absolute last resort in such a scenario, and I'm not convinced it was. Though admittedly we know almost nothing about the details.
I'm no military strategist but Israel seem to be rushing about everything a little too much, when they should take their time, and be more selective in their close combat.
In the end though, I know there are bound to be civilian casualties in combat zones such as these, but that doesn't make it any less sickening.
I don't think anyone who has any sense would claim those kids would have become terrorists. That's just stupid.
As for the Hamas fighters, obviously I can only talk about what I read and hear as I'm not there (luckily), but apparently they are not "coming out to play". They aren't drawn out, they only come out when they have a chance to surprise and ambush Israel soldiers. Staying in hiding is fine for them. Hamas knows they can't actually win, but surviving it would be a sort of victory for them.
As for Israel rushing things, well, you have to remember two things. A) Israeli cities are still being bombarded, and the lives of a million Israeli citizens has come to a halt. B) We currently have support from those who count (basically, United States). But that could end any day. If we knew we had weeks or months things might have been different, but we surely don't.
If the IDF is to be believed, and soldiers were fired at from the school, then it was perfectly legal to return fire to the fire source. It's horrifying watching the bloodshed in Gaza but I wouldn't want even one of our boys getting killed because he hesitated in returning fire as a result of the Hamas despicable human shield tactics.
A good analysis and I tend to agree.
The missing factor is Israels continued violation of international law.
This did not begin with Hamas firing rockets.
World War Two ended in absolute victory for one side.
A negotiated peace in 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943 and 1944 would have produced a very different result.
In other threads and probably this one I have consistently argued that there is no real appetite on either side for a peaceful negotiated settlement.
The grim alternative is that one side destroys the other.
Like I have said the World might vaguely "want" a two state solution, might vaguely be "in favour" of being humane and certainly ses the situation as more nuanced than the equally hateful participants.
But it would be a tragic miscalculation for any Israeli or Palestinian to think that their "allies" care enough to spill any blood for them.
Neither side actually deserves to win a war if it means the destruction of the other side.
And I am not convinced either deserve to survive.
Cheers. I shall just go and hang myself or something, if that'll suit you.
I fear international law has become a dead weight in this debate - what is legal may not necessarily be what is 'right', and that is certainly the case with the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
BREAKING: Reuters: Israel to set up 'humanitarian corridor' in Gaza
You believe this?
Well they're hardly going to release statements saying they intend to train the terrorists are they?
All my quotes are from the Hamas charter. Read all 36 articles of the document and see what you think. It's nothing less than insane.
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
Interesting news item on BBC.
Grieving relative a Mr Stock, in sharp contrast to the belicose hatred of Israels Defence Minister.
Grieving relative a Mr Stock, in sharp contrast to the belicose hatred of Israels Defence Minister.
It wouldnt suit me at all.
Typical over the top reaction. But dont let fact stand in your way.
I merely point out that the world at large feels exactly as I do. We are "not convinced" that either side deserve to survive. Sad but true.
Seems pretty silly to be. Both sides deserve to survive. Only the terrorist elements in Gaza - Hamas, and a couple of other organizations - do not.
whats the latest developments then, are they invading yet or what? last time i checked they were still busy bombing the shit out of each other
No don't think I will, better things to do.
I had thought that you had believed what they had said about the whole brought up with religious thinking thing. Sorry.
I don't know who they're trying to fool with that.
Wouldn't it all be easier if they could settle it over a game of call of duty?
Any regular listerns of the BBC World Service in the thread?
The reason i ask is that their daily global discussion show World Have Your Say was looking at the specific effect on children that the ongoing conflict has and not only this particular crisis.
It is claimed that children both in Gaza and southern Israel show signs of post traumatic stress from a very young age [as young as 3yrs old].
You can listen here :: http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/whys/whys_20090106-2005a.mp3
The reason i ask is that their daily global discussion show World Have Your Say was looking at the specific effect on children that the ongoing conflict has and not only this particular crisis.
It is claimed that children both in Gaza and southern Israel show signs of post traumatic stress from a very young age [as young as 3yrs old].
You can listen here :: http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/whys/whys_20090106-2005a.mp3
Miliband talking @ UN now....
A good option would have been to stop treating them like caged animals, give them so rights, and start negotiating for a two state solution.
Negotiate with who? There are now two Palestenian entities - one at the Gaza strip, led by Hamas, the other at the west bank, led by Fatah. Or should it be a three state solution? Yeah, slight problem. One thing's for sure though - We don't negotiate under rocket fire. So start from there.
It's not a cage. There's a 17km borderline between Gaza and Egypt, 14km on the ground and 3km on the sea. That's more than enough space to transit food and medicine instead of weapons and drugs.
Egypt does what the US wants, the US is allied to Israel, the border is locked
You had 6 months to start negotiations, you didn't because you're not interested in making a just peace
The border is not locked since at the Rafah checkpoint more than 150000 people crossed the border between 2006 and 2007 (before Hamas kidnapped the Israeli soldier). Thousands of Palestinians also crossed the border last year for their Hajj pilgrimage.
And btw the US is also allied to Egypt, there's regular military aid and technical support from the US.
The US tells Egypt what to do, the US goes along with whatever Israel wants
So the border is still locked then, despite hundreds of thousands of Palestinians crossings?
Milliband......a cure for insomniacs
150,000 different people? Or workers crossing as they ship good in the rare times when they have been open. Whats the source of your numbers?
The Border has been locked, Hamas would not have blown the border up if there was large scale movement between the territories because there wouldn't have been the need
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL34346.pdf
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/cms3...&cacheId=4120198246160127FIX0LA1PMVCRQ2MOV6W9
After Hamas took over the Gaza Strip in June 2007, Egypt worked with Israel
to close the Rafah crossing. According to the last EUBAM factsheet, “Since Corporal Gilad Shalit was captured [by Hamas] on 25 June 2006, the Rafah Crossing Point (RCP) has been closed for normal operations and open on an exceptional basis only.
Considerable efforts were made to mediate the resumption of normal operations, and to at least ensure that the crossing was open as often as possible. EUBAM efforts resulted in RCP being open for 83 days between 25 June 2006 and 13 June 2007, allowing nearly 165,000 people to cross.”
There have been some notable exceptions to Rafah’s total closure. In January
2008, Egypt allowed approximately 2,200 Palestinians, several of whom were Hamas leaders, to exit and reenter Gaza for the annual Haj pilgrimage to Mecca, Saudi Arabia. Both Israel and Palestinian Authority President Mahmud Abbas had expressed frustration with Egypt’s decision, charging that it had undermined the PA’s authority. Egypt reportedly permitted about 85 Hamas members and other militants wanted by Israel to enter Gaza via Rafah in October 2007 in exchange for a wanted Al Qaeda militant. Several months earlier, prior to the Hamas takeover of Gaza, Israel and Egypt had permitted 500 Fatah loyalists to cross into Gaza from Egypt, where they reportedly had received U.S. training.
It was open for a total of 83 days, so the border has been locked as I said
Doubt he'll say anything of worth, waste of oxygen for all concerned not that Hague's been up to much himself during this crisis.
Stop boring me dude
Reasonable enough point from an Israeli at War about "our boys".
No doubt Palestinians feel the same about the people the combatants they regard as "our boys" too. Even if it sinks to the level that "we" are humane and "our enemies" are sub human. The demonisation of the enemy so that "our boys" care more about the children and children of the enemy than they do is a nasty little racist tactic.
Unfortunately those of us who are neutral, even-handed (a luxury the Israelis and Palestinians obviously dont have) tend to think that the lives of women children and other non-combatants are worth more than the lives of combatants. Especially in this grubby nasty little war.
Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said on Tuesday that his country will keep its border crossings with Gaza Strip closed until his Palestinian counterpart Mahmud Abbas regains authority over the territory and a 2005 deal governing their operation is respected. "We in Egypt are not going to contribute to perpetuating the rift (between Abbas and Hamas) by opening the Rafah crossing in the absence of the Palestinian Authority and EU observers in violation of the 2005 deal" between Abbas and Israel, Mubarak said in a televised speech.
Peace cannot be made with Hamas. Simple as that. Yep, you'll say I'm talking nonsense, but that's just the way it is. You DO make peace with enemies rather than friends, but you can't do that with an organization that is too deeply rooted in its wish to destroy you.
They've said several times they'll make peace, they have demonstrated they can by holding ceasefires lasting over a year, Israel is simply not interested in making a peace deal that means they don't maintain great control over the Palestinian territories, they won't get that from Hamas, they might from Fatah
But if that was Palestine, power stations, places of medicine and such are targets for your terror attacks.
That is simply not correct.