Okay, thanks for the answer.
Scores die in Israeli air strikes
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Okay, thanks for the answer.
The way I see it, it's a land dispute. Two groups want it, and have reasonable claim to it. One group is militarily stronger.
The stronger group has no religious or ethnic brothers in the region, while the weaker group has many millions of them. These millions live in states that have, for as long as they've existed, been run by governments that are either autocratic, corrupt, or autocratic and corrupt. Economically speaking, it is only recently that any of these states have had any large source of income that doesn't get pumped out of the ground, and in states where there is little of this natural resource, the people are generally poor.
There is some genuine feeling of brotherhood with Palestinians, but being able to blame Israel for so many of the region's problems allows the governments of the region to keep their people's eyes off their government's own failings, and their nation's relative lack of economic development. This is especially important given that the Israelis have actually developed a modern economy, exporting things like computer chips and newly patented technologies rather than oil.
Also, Israel has done some nasty shit over the years. It's all a rich tapestry.
Absolutely, and if you scout through this thread you will have noticed me condemning Hamas to the teeth - I despise the position they're putting their own innocents in. However Israel as a western-personified middle-eastern nation has a responsibility to carry out. They're the new guys in the block and have rightly earnt their existence to remain in the ME after winning various wars against an alliance of Arab states. However it is arrogant and provocative acts (such as the expansion of Israeli land following the Arab-Israeli wars) which in my eyes has only dented the situation and have burdened Israel with the issues they have now.
Trust me, I above anyone would love a co-existing Israeli state, but after a bloody cenutry of conflict and carnage among both the Arabs and Israelis, I think it's unfortunately impossible now and the most ethical solution possible is to establish two states which will hopefully (if not then reluctantly) accept each other's existence.
Other factors: Iran sows conflict in Israel (by backing and funding groups like Hams and Hezbollah) because it wants a stronger position within the region, and wants to export its Islamic revolution as far abroad as possible. Islam as a religion is also at a phase of its development where there is a strong movement toward fundamentalism and a rejection of worldly concerns such as economic advancement, science and technology, and social progress.
As for Palestinians, they hate Israel because they want their land back, and because Israel has done some nasty shit to them over the years. That part is relatively easy to understand, but only a small piece of the puzzle as far as I can tell. Without the other factors I've mentioned, this land dispute in which only a couple million people are on the short end of the stick would certainly be a problem, but nowhere near as large of one as it is today.
As for Palestinians, they hate Israel because they want their land back, and because Israel has done some nasty shit to them over the years. That part is relatively easy to understand, but only a small piece of the puzzle as far as I can tell. Without the other factors I've mentioned, this land dispute in which only a couple million people are on the short end of the stick would certainly be a problem, but nowhere near as large of one as it is today.
One last factor re:hatred of Israel. In Europe and the US, people see Israel as a proxy for their own governments, or for the United States. They are not the worst, most violent, or most aggressive nation on the planet, but they are the most aggressive nation that is so strongly backed by the US (and given support by other Western nations). Protesting the actions of Israel is in a way a protest at the actions of peoples own government, or of the United States.
Hating the Sudanese, North Korean, Myanmar, Chinese, Somali, Cambodian or Congolese governments carries no such relevance to the internal political struggles and political hatred present in all the nations of "the West". I have members of my extended family who have spoken out against Israel, and in support of the Palestinians, for decades. Not a word though for the millions who have been imprisoned or massacred in the countries I mentioned above. This doesn't make my relatives hypocrites - it just makes me question both their motivation in terms of which causes they choose to support, and their vehement insistence as to just how awful, criminal, vicious, nasty, despicable, murderous, and genocidal Israel is.
It's a land dispute. They won. And they continue to be faced by millions of hostile people around them. They've done some bad shit, unquestionably. But they've been despised from day one, before they had much of a chance to do anything all that horrible, other than win the land dispute. Like you, I think there should be two states. But I am skeptical as to whether much of the Middle East, and especially the better armed factions and nations therein, will be content with such a solution. Perhaps we will some day have a chance to find out.
Hating the Sudanese, North Korean, Myanmar, Chinese, Somali, Cambodian or Congolese governments carries no such relevance to the internal political struggles and political hatred present in all the nations of "the West". I have members of my extended family who have spoken out against Israel, and in support of the Palestinians, for decades. Not a word though for the millions who have been imprisoned or massacred in the countries I mentioned above. This doesn't make my relatives hypocrites - it just makes me question both their motivation in terms of which causes they choose to support, and their vehement insistence as to just how awful, criminal, vicious, nasty, despicable, murderous, and genocidal Israel is.
It's a land dispute. They won. And they continue to be faced by millions of hostile people around them. They've done some bad shit, unquestionably. But they've been despised from day one, before they had much of a chance to do anything all that horrible, other than win the land dispute. Like you, I think there should be two states. But I am skeptical as to whether much of the Middle East, and especially the better armed factions and nations therein, will be content with such a solution. Perhaps we will some day have a chance to find out.
They might as well push for the two-state solution, in my eyes Israel have nothing to lose. I think it's safe to assume they're currently not happy with their current security situation, and really them entitling the Palestinians a state to call their own will do wonders to shift global opinion in their favour. Remember that most Arabic militant organisations strive on the fact that the world is highly critical towards Israel's actions, however even they themselves known that if the Palestinians get a state of their own, it'll be a huge blow for the terrorist-cause.
That's s great point that's very rarely made. This goes a very long way towards keeping the issue so well covered in an otherwise consistently fickle Western press.
not really...i dont consider myself an Arab but i lived in an Arab society, the thing is Lebanon is the most ''western'' out of all Arab Countries IMO...Tells you a lot about the Arab societies...
am not against the existance of Israel, as long as a Palestinian state is Formed and maybe then we can live in peace.
I rate Chris H.
Agreed, he has a patience in the manner he explains the situation that myself, in my total intolerance of what I consider idiocy could never hope to achieve
the point I.m making is that the the Palestinians are indoctrinating kids with a horrible idealogy with or without Israeli excursions
er and the language they use shouldn´t encourage the Israelis to trust them further than they can spit
Easy.... Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish once said:
“Nobody would give a damn for the Palestinians if the Jews were not involved”.
Think about it.
Not being too Western does not mean that Arab societies are backwards.
Compared to what...Inca's?
GDP for all Arab countries is less than the GDP of Spain
There are 18 computers per 1000 citizens compared to a global average of 78.3.
One in five Arabs lives on less than $2 per day
Arab unemployment, at 15%, is the highest in the developing world
Only 1.6% of the population has Internet access.
Arab women have lower life expectancy than the world average
Less than one book a year is translated into Arabic per million people, compared to over 1000 per million for developed countries.
Arabs publish only 1.1% of books globally, despite making up over 5% of global population, with religious books dominating the market.
Average R&D expenditures on a per capita basis is one-sixth of Cuba's and less than one-fifteenth of Japan's.
You're being silly again, you're figures are hardly representative.
Most of this 'poverty' if you will is from the North African countries. Have you ever been to the UAE, Saudi Arabia or even Lebanon? Wait, you havent for obvious reasons but really I wouldnt call these countries economically weak.
What point are you trying to make anyway?
Poverty doesn't make a society backward, it just makes it poor. The troubling statistics are the ones about publishing, which I've seen reproduced (or thereabouts) elsewhere as well. It may not be relevant to the thread title, but I'll post the clip below anyway because I found it interesting. Can't be bothered to verify the figures, but given the source I'll assume they're reliable.
Some of you are exhibiting lack of respect not only for the Arab world, but for the many Arab people that visit this forum.
Posting statistic's about how backward "Arabs nations" are, what will this achieve? except offend.
Posting statistic's about how backward "Arabs nations" are, what will this achieve? except offend.
My thoughts exactly, others think its OK though since Arabs admit they are backward...
Some of you are exhibiting a lack of respect not only for the Jewish world, but the many Jewish people who visit this forum. Posting statistics about how Israel is just like the Nazis, what will this achieve? Except offend.
Good stuff, that Ian Brown.
You are truly pathetic, when will you ever learn that lifting your "knowledge" from right wing sites (www.military.com) that print complete bullshit makes you look like an utter cock.
They are all known facts. Written in bold regular uppercase lowercase doesn't matter. Whether you accept it or not is a different story.
You are Correct. But i havent read anybody claim that "Jewish" people are backward. And this isnt about Jewish attacks on Gaza, its about Israeli military action in gaza over a 3 week period.
People are debating it from all sides, and i couldnt give two fecks whos right and whos wrong. That piece of land has been thought over for thousands of years.. and its my guess it will continue that way.
But when the thread starts becoming a racist thread towards the Arab people, then we need kick up a fuss. And if people started posting "Jewish people backward/stupid etc..id feel just as pissed off about it.
This thread is dead, all that remains is anger and bitterness tbh.
No offense to the point of view expressed in that song, but I didn't realize Mr. Darcy had made a music video.
Gideon Levy / Gaza war ended in utter failure for Israel
On the morrow of the return of the last Israeli soldier from Gaza, we can determine with certainty that they had all gone out there in vain. This war ended in utter failure for Israel.
This goes beyond the profound moral failure, which is a grave matter in itself, but pertains to its inability to reach its stated goals. In other words, the grief is not complemented by failure. We have gained nothing in this war save hundreds of graves, some of them very small, thousands of maimed people, much destruction and the besmirching of Israel's image.
What seemed like a predestined loss to only a handful of people at the onset of the war will gradually emerge as such to many others, once the victorious trumpeting subsides.
The initial objective of the war was to put an end to the firing of Qassam rockets. This did not cease until the war's last day. It was only achieved after a cease-fire had already been arranged. Defense officials estimate that Hamas still has 1,000 rockets.
The war's second objective, the prevention of smuggling, was not met either. The head of the Shin Bet security service has estimated that smuggling will be renewed within two months.
Most of the smuggling that is going on is meant to provide food for a population under siege, and not to obtain weapons. But even if we accept the scare campaign concerning the smuggling with its exaggerations, this war has served to prove that only poor quality, rudimentary weapons passed through the smuggling tunnels connecting the Gaza Strip to Egypt.
Israel's ability to achieve its third objective is also dubious. Deterrence, my foot. The deterrence we supposedly achieved in the Second Lebanon War has not had the slightest effect on Hamas, and the one supposedly achieved now isn't working any better: The sporadic firing of rockets from the Gaza Strip has continued over the past few days.
The fourth objective, which remained undeclared, was not met either. The IDF has not restored its capability. It couldn't have, not in a quasi-war against a miserable and poorly-equipped organization relying on makeshift weapons, whose combatants barely put up a fight.
The heroic descriptions and victory poems written abut the "military triumph" will not serve to change reality. The pilots were flying on training missions and the ground forces were engaged in exercises that involved joining up and firing weapons.
The describing of the operation as a "military achievement" by the various generals and analysts who offered their take on the operation is plain ridiculous.
We have not weakened Hamas. The vast majority of its combatants were not harmed and popular support for the organization has in fact increased. Their war has intensified the ethos of resistance and determined endurance. A country which has nursed an entire generation on the ethos of a few versus should know to appreciate that by now. There was no doubt as to who was David and who was Goliath in this war.
The population in Gaza, which has sustained such a severe blow, will not become more moderate now. On the contrary, the national sentiment will now turn more than before against the party which inflicted that blow - the State of Israel. Just as public opinion leans to the right in Israel after each attack against us, so it will in Gaza following the mega-attack that we carried out against them.
If anyone was weakened because of this war, it was Fatah, whose fleeing from Gaza and its abandonment have now been given special significance. The succession of failures in this war needs to include, of course, the failure of the siege policy. For a while, we have already come to realize that is ineffective. The world boycotted, Israel besieged and Hamas ruled (and is still ruling).
But this war's balance, as far as Israel is concerned, does not end with the absence of any achievement. It has placed a heavy toll on us, which will continue to burden us for some time. When it comes to assessing Israel's international situation, we must not allow ourselves to be fooled by the support parade by Europe's leaders, who came in for a photo-op with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.
Israel's actions have dealt a serious blow to public support for the state. While this does not always translate itself into an immediate diplomatic situation, the shockwaves will arrive one day. The whole world saw the images. They shocked every human being who saw them, even if they left most Israelis cold.
The conclusion is that Israel is a violent and dangerous country, devoid of all restraints and blatantly ignoring the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council, while not giving a hoot about international law. The investigations are on their way.
Graver still is the damage this will visit upon our moral spine. It will come from difficult questions about what the IDF did in Gaza, which will occur despite the blurring effect of recruited media.
So what was achieved, after all? As a war waged to satisfy considerations of internal politics, the operation has succeeded beyond all expectations. Likud Chair Benjamin Netanyahu is getting stronger in the polls. And why? Because we could not get enough of the war.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057670.html
Sorry if this already has been posted
On the morrow of the return of the last Israeli soldier from Gaza, we can determine with certainty that they had all gone out there in vain. This war ended in utter failure for Israel.
This goes beyond the profound moral failure, which is a grave matter in itself, but pertains to its inability to reach its stated goals. In other words, the grief is not complemented by failure. We have gained nothing in this war save hundreds of graves, some of them very small, thousands of maimed people, much destruction and the besmirching of Israel's image.
What seemed like a predestined loss to only a handful of people at the onset of the war will gradually emerge as such to many others, once the victorious trumpeting subsides.
The initial objective of the war was to put an end to the firing of Qassam rockets. This did not cease until the war's last day. It was only achieved after a cease-fire had already been arranged. Defense officials estimate that Hamas still has 1,000 rockets.
The war's second objective, the prevention of smuggling, was not met either. The head of the Shin Bet security service has estimated that smuggling will be renewed within two months.
Most of the smuggling that is going on is meant to provide food for a population under siege, and not to obtain weapons. But even if we accept the scare campaign concerning the smuggling with its exaggerations, this war has served to prove that only poor quality, rudimentary weapons passed through the smuggling tunnels connecting the Gaza Strip to Egypt.
Israel's ability to achieve its third objective is also dubious. Deterrence, my foot. The deterrence we supposedly achieved in the Second Lebanon War has not had the slightest effect on Hamas, and the one supposedly achieved now isn't working any better: The sporadic firing of rockets from the Gaza Strip has continued over the past few days.
The fourth objective, which remained undeclared, was not met either. The IDF has not restored its capability. It couldn't have, not in a quasi-war against a miserable and poorly-equipped organization relying on makeshift weapons, whose combatants barely put up a fight.
The heroic descriptions and victory poems written abut the "military triumph" will not serve to change reality. The pilots were flying on training missions and the ground forces were engaged in exercises that involved joining up and firing weapons.
The describing of the operation as a "military achievement" by the various generals and analysts who offered their take on the operation is plain ridiculous.
We have not weakened Hamas. The vast majority of its combatants were not harmed and popular support for the organization has in fact increased. Their war has intensified the ethos of resistance and determined endurance. A country which has nursed an entire generation on the ethos of a few versus should know to appreciate that by now. There was no doubt as to who was David and who was Goliath in this war.
The population in Gaza, which has sustained such a severe blow, will not become more moderate now. On the contrary, the national sentiment will now turn more than before against the party which inflicted that blow - the State of Israel. Just as public opinion leans to the right in Israel after each attack against us, so it will in Gaza following the mega-attack that we carried out against them.
If anyone was weakened because of this war, it was Fatah, whose fleeing from Gaza and its abandonment have now been given special significance. The succession of failures in this war needs to include, of course, the failure of the siege policy. For a while, we have already come to realize that is ineffective. The world boycotted, Israel besieged and Hamas ruled (and is still ruling).
But this war's balance, as far as Israel is concerned, does not end with the absence of any achievement. It has placed a heavy toll on us, which will continue to burden us for some time. When it comes to assessing Israel's international situation, we must not allow ourselves to be fooled by the support parade by Europe's leaders, who came in for a photo-op with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.
Israel's actions have dealt a serious blow to public support for the state. While this does not always translate itself into an immediate diplomatic situation, the shockwaves will arrive one day. The whole world saw the images. They shocked every human being who saw them, even if they left most Israelis cold.
The conclusion is that Israel is a violent and dangerous country, devoid of all restraints and blatantly ignoring the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council, while not giving a hoot about international law. The investigations are on their way.
Graver still is the damage this will visit upon our moral spine. It will come from difficult questions about what the IDF did in Gaza, which will occur despite the blurring effect of recruited media.
So what was achieved, after all? As a war waged to satisfy considerations of internal politics, the operation has succeeded beyond all expectations. Likud Chair Benjamin Netanyahu is getting stronger in the polls. And why? Because we could not get enough of the war.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057670.html
Sorry if this already has been posted
By now, he's already ridiculed by his fellow leftist commrades.
Apologies if any Arab poster was offended by any of my posts. That wasn't my intention by mentioning the challenges faced by Arab societies. The point I was trying to make is that Arab dictators do their best to prevent modernization which could unsettle their regime. One way of doing that is by keeping a common outside "evil".
You are truly pathetic, when will you ever learn that lifting your "knowledge" from right wing sites (www.military.com) that print complete bullshit makes you look like an utter cock.
The United Nations Development Report actually.
Now shut up.
I dont deny you may be right but provide a link please so we can at least see what you're quoting from.
And what point are you trying to make anyway? Are you Yigal Amir by any chance?
Let me be clear.
If I was an Arab and saw the incredible strides the Jews and Israel have made in science, medicine, the arts etc I'd hate it's guts.
UN highlights uncomfortable truths for Arab world
By Robert Fisk in Beirut
Wednesday, 3 July 2002
Deprived of political freedom, isolated from the world of ideas, repressing their women, and with science and development stunted, the Arab world will find it difficult to fault the conclusions of a UN report which all too accurately sums up the barren, ossified life of so many Arab countries.
Deprived of political freedom, isolated from the world of ideas, repressing their women, and with science and development stunted, the Arab world will find it difficult to fault the conclusions of a UN report which all too accurately sums up the barren, ossified life of so many Arab countries.
The UN's Arab Development Report was prepared by Arab intellectuals and partly sponsored by the Arab League, so there is no way the Arab dictators and oligarchs can pretend to ignore its findings.
But they will. For although the report does not say so in quite these words, it is the dead, often cruel, rule of their regimes which have long used the pretext of the Israeli- Palestinian conflict to postpone indefinitely any democratic reform. The document, released in Cairo yesterday and covering 22 Arab countries containing 280 million people, says damningly that the Arab world is "richer than it is developed".
With appropriate irony, the report coincided with a Unesco conference in Beirut which drew almost identical conclusions. Speakers condemned the "backward narcissism" of the Arab world, the failure to produce a society which has room for self-doubt, which forbids the teaching of philosophy in universities because – in the words of Mohammed Sbila, a Moroccan academic – "it epitomises awareness and doesn't hold anything sacred".
The UN report talks about a less tolerant social environment, thus avoiding any discussion of Islam and its fundamentalist believers, in which per capita income growth has shrunk over the past two decades to a level little above that of sub-saharan Africa. Productivity is declining.
Science is comatose, along with technology. Research and development is often non- existent. Intellectuals shun the repressive, closed societies of the Arab world. Half of all Arab women are illiterate and the maternal mortality rate is four times that of east Asia.
Rima Hunaidi, a former Jordanian minister, says she asked the authors of the report "to come and look at this problem and decide why is Arab culture, why are Arab countries lagging behind?" Most Arabs, however, will wonder why it took a one-year study to come up with the answers. Indeed, just a look at the past week's developments in the Arab world should be enough. On Sunday, Kuwait, despite repeated pleas for clemency from Amnesty International, hanged three Bangladeshis convicted of murder and then displayed the corpses on the gibbet. In Egypt, policemen beat back Islamist voters trying to cast their ballots in a rigged election.
Syria sent an intellectual to prison for daring to suggest that the country should be more open to democratic debate. In Jordan, trade unionists were warned not to involve themselves in politics after demonstrations calling for a boycott of America. With the exception of only one nation – Syria – all the others are among the "friends" of the West.
Even in France, we have the spectacle of General Khaled Nezzar, perhaps the top man in the Algerian regime, taking to court a second lieutenant in the Algerian army for "slandering" him in a book on Algeria's dirty war. Already Habib Souaida, the former soldier, has given evidence of watching soldiers throwing petrol over a boy aged 15 and burning him alive. Yet General Nezzar, who fled Paris when civil suits were filed against him for torture, is now allowed back. Meanwhile, in Algeria, Spain's Foreign Minister, representing the EU, has welcomed "notable progress in the protection of human rights".
By Robert Fisk in Beirut
Wednesday, 3 July 2002
Deprived of political freedom, isolated from the world of ideas, repressing their women, and with science and development stunted, the Arab world will find it difficult to fault the conclusions of a UN report which all too accurately sums up the barren, ossified life of so many Arab countries.
Deprived of political freedom, isolated from the world of ideas, repressing their women, and with science and development stunted, the Arab world will find it difficult to fault the conclusions of a UN report which all too accurately sums up the barren, ossified life of so many Arab countries.
The UN's Arab Development Report was prepared by Arab intellectuals and partly sponsored by the Arab League, so there is no way the Arab dictators and oligarchs can pretend to ignore its findings.
But they will. For although the report does not say so in quite these words, it is the dead, often cruel, rule of their regimes which have long used the pretext of the Israeli- Palestinian conflict to postpone indefinitely any democratic reform. The document, released in Cairo yesterday and covering 22 Arab countries containing 280 million people, says damningly that the Arab world is "richer than it is developed".
With appropriate irony, the report coincided with a Unesco conference in Beirut which drew almost identical conclusions. Speakers condemned the "backward narcissism" of the Arab world, the failure to produce a society which has room for self-doubt, which forbids the teaching of philosophy in universities because – in the words of Mohammed Sbila, a Moroccan academic – "it epitomises awareness and doesn't hold anything sacred".
The UN report talks about a less tolerant social environment, thus avoiding any discussion of Islam and its fundamentalist believers, in which per capita income growth has shrunk over the past two decades to a level little above that of sub-saharan Africa. Productivity is declining.
Science is comatose, along with technology. Research and development is often non- existent. Intellectuals shun the repressive, closed societies of the Arab world. Half of all Arab women are illiterate and the maternal mortality rate is four times that of east Asia.
Rima Hunaidi, a former Jordanian minister, says she asked the authors of the report "to come and look at this problem and decide why is Arab culture, why are Arab countries lagging behind?" Most Arabs, however, will wonder why it took a one-year study to come up with the answers. Indeed, just a look at the past week's developments in the Arab world should be enough. On Sunday, Kuwait, despite repeated pleas for clemency from Amnesty International, hanged three Bangladeshis convicted of murder and then displayed the corpses on the gibbet. In Egypt, policemen beat back Islamist voters trying to cast their ballots in a rigged election.
Syria sent an intellectual to prison for daring to suggest that the country should be more open to democratic debate. In Jordan, trade unionists were warned not to involve themselves in politics after demonstrations calling for a boycott of America. With the exception of only one nation – Syria – all the others are among the "friends" of the West.
Even in France, we have the spectacle of General Khaled Nezzar, perhaps the top man in the Algerian regime, taking to court a second lieutenant in the Algerian army for "slandering" him in a book on Algeria's dirty war. Already Habib Souaida, the former soldier, has given evidence of watching soldiers throwing petrol over a boy aged 15 and burning him alive. Yet General Nezzar, who fled Paris when civil suits were filed against him for torture, is now allowed back. Meanwhile, in Algeria, Spain's Foreign Minister, representing the EU, has welcomed "notable progress in the protection of human rights".
I might add, they were despised long before that, and have had extraordinarily horrible things done to them by just about everyone, which is why the land was made available to them in the first place.
Returned to them would be a more accurate.
Stolen would be even more accurate
Funny you say that, Israel wants a peaceful but poor neighbor in the West Bank and Gaza, that way it'd gain a cheap source of labour without the need to provide as a government normally would when allowing in immigrant workers
That would imply ownership. Which there wasn't.
You're not an Arab, so thats a load of crap. Islam and the Arab world have also brought about great scientific and social advances, 500 years ago the Islamic world was regarded as the technical masterclass of the era. Of course times change so dont try and generalise things you dont know. And dont make up statistics.
The best modern scientists were Jewish, the best early scholars were Islamic, one of the greatest biologists is an atheist, so stop relating religion and race to technical and intellectual superiority. You're ideas are beginning to sound like those of a specific mid-20th century western European regime.
Agreed mate.
You don't have to be a woman to be a gynecologist for starters.
And I will relate religion to progress just like you have. Perhaps if the Arab states hadn't comatosed for 500 years, we wouldn't even had this thread.