Scottish / Irish Independance

cyberman said:
The Northern Ireland border poll is strategic though. Northen Ireland may not vote to leave since everyone is a mess right now but after the voting closes the rule is that it has to be voted on again and again every 7 years.
That's the end game from Sinn Fein etc. Getting that into motion.
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Yes no doubt but to be honest even that worries me, this place is still not truly stable. We had riots here because the city council decided to fall inline with the rest of the UK and not fly a flag 365 days a year. Could you imagine what would happen if a referendum was coming around every 7 years.

Or say we did actually vote to join a United Ireland, there will be idiots looking to start trouble again in protest.
 
The Purist said:
Unfortunately, I suspect many (if not all) Unionists in Northern Ireland would vote against one country even if it ultimately would make them economically better off.

The main Unionist party convinced almost half of the country to vote for Leave even though there was virtually zero economic benefit to that country as a whole. Moreover, they celebrated this result this morning.

It would be nice to see NI vote for what is best economically for themselves as opposed to anything else - be that to stay in the UK or not.
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Oh you are right the majority of them would no doubt vote against it. And to be fair the same is probably true on the other side of the community, i know many people who would vote for a United Ireland regardless of how much economic sense it makes.

I too wish people here would start voting based on things other than religion and Unionist/Nationalist loyalty.
 
This is really simple .

Part of the reason a lot of people were scared to vote yes in the Scottish referendum was the scaremongering of " well you won't be able to just join the EU"

Well now they've been fecking kicked out against their wishes .

Scotland to be independent by 2020, it's a shoe in
 
stevoc said:
Oh you are right the majority of them would no doubt vote against it. And to be fair the same is probably true on the other side of the community, i know many people who would vote for a United Ireland regardless of how much economic sense it makes.

I too wish people here would start voting based on things other than religion and Unionist/Nationalist loyalty.
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Many of the politicians in Northern Ireland seem to favour divisive politics as it is easy for them. It's easy to create fear and loathing with an 'us versus them' mentality and to ensure generations of voters to come. Personally, if I was a Unionist who had voted to remain and was having worries about the financial security of myself or my family, I'd feel that some of the comments from their representatives today would be bordering on insulting my intelligence.
 
I voted no to independence last time but after yesterday's referendum and the thought of BoJo leading the country and UKIP on the rise in England I think I will vote yes for the next one.

Although the thought of losing the pound (will we?) and switching to the Euro makes me wary

I'm pretty sure that if there is another independence referendum in Scotland it will win. The main worry was the economy but it seems like England have decided to mess it up anyway with the EU vote
 
I already don't feel like my vote matters most of the time, %wise I'd have more of an effect in a United Ireland election, the head tells me it makes sense.

The heart doesn't want to lose the identity that we have.
 
Feel like I'm supposed to want a United Ireland and I guess I do in a vague, ideal, historical sense. In real world terms though? Nope. The reality is that it's extremely, extremely, extremely unlikely anyway though.
 
The Purist said:
Many of the politicians in Northern Ireland seem to favour divisive politics as it is easy for them. It's easy to create fear and loathing with an 'us versus them' mentality and to ensure generations of voters to come.
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Yes sad but true mate.

The Purist said:
Personally, if I was a Unionist who had voted to remain and was having worries about the financial security of myself or my family, I'd feel that some of the comments from their representatives today would be bordering on insulting my intelligence.
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I am by no means a fan of Sinn Fein, but yeah the DUP are an absolute joke. It's embarrassing that they are the biggest party here.

I voted to remain in the EU personally, i reckon a lot of the people here who voted to leave did so simply because the DUP told them to.
 
Bwuk said:
Living in Scotland all I'm hearing is outrage.

What annoys me is people can't accept we live in a democracy. The Scottish people voted against independence, and people still try to push for another Indyref.

Now in the wake of this, it's another huge push towards people wanting indyref2. We can't just say it's not fair because we didn't vote it, it was part of a UK wide vote which we chose to be a part of.

You can't demand a referendum everytime the vote goes against which you wanted.

This is coming from someone who was a remain voter. Sorry for any typos, my phones keyboard is being a bit dodgy!
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I disagree.

When one of 'Better Together's main arguments is that EU membership is reliant on being a part of the UK and then we're dragged out of the EU by people who live in different countries, that is obviously grounds for people to be both upset and reconsidering their stance. I obviously don't know the main reasons for people voting No but I do remember that EU membership was a massive talking point at the time. It was that and economic arguments that were the main strengths of the UK's pitch. That just looks awful silly now.

That's without even going into getting another Tory government that we didn't vote for.
 
stevoc said:
Yes sad but true mate.



I am by no means a fan of Sinn Fein, but yeah the DUP are an absolute joke. It's embarrassing that they are the biggest party here.

I voted to remain in the EU personally, i reckon a lot of the people here who voted to leave did so simply because the DUP told them to.
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I will admit that is worrying. With that said, I am firmly of the opinion that the majority of people in any country are decent and reasonable. It's just a means of the decent and reasonable people on whatever side of the divide coming together and accepting that the past is the past. It cannot be forgotten but it should be forgiven.

Those who express divisive views, in my opinion, should be called out. Those politicians who goad the 'other side' or are boisterous in opposition to 'the other side' should be shamed. They voted Remain and I say well done to them. But if the vote was to Unite Ireland and remain or to Leave the EU, would Remain still have won? No. And that is the voting culture which needs to be eradicated. N. Irish people are willing to vote for their own well-being up to a point.. but above all else, the 'other side' cannot win. It's a true shame.

Reasonable members of all sides of the community must come together and end this rubbish about 'the other side'. The reasonable people must put an end to sectarianism by speaking openly against it, uniting communities and teaching their children that rejoicing in history is not the way forward.

That is just my two cents. I wish you all the best.
 
zlatan_ish said:
Pardon my ignorance but why it would be mess?

Like when Germany unified? West was more stronger economically than East ( It still is)
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That is one issue. Apologies, I'm not too familiar on the economics of the German unification.

The North also has a massive civil service which we simply cannot afford. The North is also heavily funded by both Westminster and the EU. The Irish economy is just recovering from the brink of bankruptcy, and we will be under severe pressure from the trade issues with the UK. Adding the unification would be too much. Thats without taking into account the unionists and changing everything to the Republics policies, regulations and standards.
 
Not sure it's as obvious as people tend to think. Lets take Scotland for example. Sure the one of the reason to Stay was that Sco will remain part of EU, but when Scots were devising the Ref one of their points, actually main one, was that both countries will be part of EU, so single market, open borders all tht will not change. Now... Just imagine Sco is independent, Eng is out of EC and in control of the border with a lot of anti-immigration sentiment. And ask yourself this were exactly will be a massive border reminiscent of the now famous Trump Wall. It will be at scottish border, because all these polish people, romanians whoever else will come from the north, not the south.
So a free border stuff we can definitely forget, being able to use the pound is also out of the question, the whole logistics of Sco-EU trade will be a nightmare and so on, so on. Practically speaking right now Scotland independent prospects became even much harder to implement. Of course the manner of it all, the failed Yes vote and then this thing with Scotland overweeningly to remain, while it's England who dragged the Scotland to leave, it all will provide ammunition for what is called "revanchism". But that an emotional reaction. Actually if we weight the facts it's even harder for Scotland to leave now and it could be even more riskier. Then again voting with "the heart" rather than head seems to be going around like a very nasty virus.
But the thing to remember is also that today you cannot really be too small to secede. What's to stop Scotland border regions to say that they want "out". As i remember they were the "No" leaders. And you can understand why, they don't what to be on the border. So keeping "independent" Scotland together is going to be a tough task as well.
 
Vilev said:
Not sure it's as obvious as people tend to think. Lets take Scotland for example. Sure the one of the reason to Stay was that Sco will remain part of EU, but when Scots were devising the Ref one of their points, actually main one, was that both countries will be part of EU, so single market, open borders all tht will not change. Now... Just imagine Sco is independent, Eng is out of EC and in control of the border with a lot of anti-immigration sentiment. And ask yourself this were exactly will be a massive border reminiscent of the now famous Trump Wall. It will be at scottish border, because all these polish people, romanians whoever else will come from the north, not the south.
So a free border stuff we can definitely forget, being able to use the pound is also out of the question, the whole logistics of Sco-EU trade will be a nightmare and so on, so on. Practically speaking right now Scotland independent prospects became even much harder to implement. Of course the manner of it all, the failed Yes vote and then this thing with Scotland overweeningly to remain, while it's England who dragged the Scotland to leave, it all will provide ammunition for what is called "revanchism". But that an emotional reaction. Actually if we weight the facts it's even harder for Scotland to leave now and it could be even more riskier. Then again voting with "the heart" rather than head seems to be going around like a very nasty virus.
But the thing to remember is also that today you cannot really be too small to secede. What's to stop Scotland border regions to say that they want "out". As i remember they were the "No" leaders. And you can understand why, they don't what to be on the border. So keeping "independent" Scotland together is going to be a tough task as well.
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It wouldn't have to be any different to however they plan to deal with the NI border. We'll have to wait and see what that looks like but some Leave campaigners claimed that there'd be no need for a hard border.

I can't imagine many Yes voters from the last referendum have changed their minds. Plenty of No voters were for Scottish Independence in principle, but were put off by the uncertainty and opted for the safer status quo option. We blew up the status quo yesterday and there's uncertainty every way you look.
 
Pink Moon said:
I disagree.

When one of 'Better Together's main arguments is that EU membership is reliant on being a part of the UK and then we're dragged out of the EU by people who live in different countries, that is obviously grounds for people to be both upset and reconsidering their stance. I obviously don't know the main reasons for people voting No but I do remember that EU membership was a massive talking point at the time. It was that and economic arguments that were the main strengths of the UK's pitch. That just looks awful silly now.

That's without even going into getting another Tory government that we didn't vote for.
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Yup. I think people who arent getting this are a bit ...
 
I voted Yes in 2014 but I'm even more certain that we should now. Our political interests clearly do not align with those of the rest of the UK. We did not vote for Cameron, and Boris is seen as so abhorrent that the devolved equivalent of his own fecking party are considering breaking away for him.

The EU is more important though; we overwhelmingly voted to remain within it, and should seek a method in which to do so. If that's independence, so be it.

Every important argument from 2014 has been demolished. A Labour government? Good luck seeing that again, for a considerable time.

Staying within the EU, or possibly not getting accepted? It really doesn't matter, because we're leaving anyway. And we used to be laughed at for the mere suggestion that this was possible.

Economic uncertainty? Look at the state we're in right now.:lol:

Stability? Again, same as above. How can anyone from the UK government claim with any sort of conviction that we're now more stable in the UK than outside of it considering what's just happened? Especially when we were vehemently against it.

Having to implement controlled borders with England will no doubt be a fecking pain, but at this stage I'd rather take that inconvenience than have the governments of the UK inflicted upon us when we have no interest whatsoever in them.
 
Scrumpet said:
It wouldn't have to be any different to however they plan to deal with the NI border. We'll have to wait and see what that looks like but some Leave campaigners claimed that there'd be no need for a hard border.
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It will be. Ireland is in EU and N Irel wants to be their and the rest of UK is separated by the sea. Given that immigration is central to debate here, England would not tolerate an open border with Scotland if any eastern european can legally get to Scotland. Because we all know they won't stay in Scotland, they will go south.
Scrumpet said:
I can't imagine many Yes voters from the last referendum have changed their minds. Plenty of No voters were for Scottish Independence in principle, but were put off by the uncertainty and opted for the safer status quo option. We blew up the status quo yesterday and there's uncertainty every way you look.
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Sure. As i've said if you vote with emotions and wanting to redeem the "double loss" of sorts it could fly.

What i am talking about is that the actual practical implementation of said independence has just gotten a lot harder. It was much easier task to be independent while both countries in the EC. And if Scotland will choose to leave the UK i think it's entirely possible that their southern regions will want their own referendum.
 
Bwuk said:
Living in Scotland all I'm hearing is outrage.

What annoys me is people can't accept we live in a democracy. The Scottish people voted against independence, and people still try to push for another Indyref.

Now in the wake of this, it's another huge push towards people wanting indyref2. We can't just say it's not fair because we didn't vote it, it was part of a UK wide vote which we chose to be a part of.

You can't demand a referendum everytime the vote goes against which you wanted.

This is coming from someone who was a remain voter. Sorry for any typos, my phones keyboard is being a bit dodgy!
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Yes we can - that's generally the reason we're incredibly annoyed.

We did vote against independence, and I was of the view that it shouldn't be brought up again for a while, but being taken out of the EU is a seismic, massive change - one we have opted against the UK option for. A central crux of the UK's argument was the certainty of remaining within the EU, and the loss of that certainty is a massive change.

It's not about demanding it every time we want something, otherwise we'd have done it in 2015 after the Tories got their majority. This is quite probably the biggest political change we'll see in Britain for the next 30 years. As weird as it sounds, it's possibly the most sensible time to act. I understood that we could be dragged out of the EU against our will within the UK, but a lot perhaps never really recognised the true threat, and may have changed their mind.

And to be honest, I couldn't give much of a feck at this stage if it's the right thing to do, as such. The UK has been utterly incompetent in dealing with us and I have no faith in the current government, or the one to come, whatsoever. Our political landscape is a world away from that of Westminster.
 
Cheesy said:
I voted Yes in 2014 but I'm even more certain that we should now. Our political interests clearly do not align with those of the rest of the UK. We did not vote for Cameron, and Boris is seen as so abhorrent that the devolved equivalent of his own fecking party are considering breaking away for him.

The EU is more important though; we overwhelmingly voted to remain within it, and should seek a method in which to do so. If that's independence, so be it.

Every important argument from 2014 has been demolished. A Labour government? Good luck seeing that again, for a considerable time.

Staying within the EU, or possibly not getting accepted? It really doesn't matter, because we're leaving anyway. And we used to be laughed at for the mere suggestion that this was possible.

Economic uncertainty? Look at the state we're in right now.:lol:

Stability? Again, same as above. How can anyone from the UK government claim with any sort of conviction that we're now more stable in the UK than outside of it considering what's just happened? Especially when we were vehemently against it.

Having to implement controlled borders with England will no doubt be a fecking pain, but at this stage I'd rather take that inconvenience than have the governments of the UK inflicted upon us when we have no interest whatsoever in them.
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I voted No and I am now in the yes camp. Although what will happen with the currency? That's my main worry

If there is another referendum then I think it's certain we will leave. The economic arguments which scared the likes of me don't really work now with the mess we are in now.
 
I love the idea of a unified Ireland, on paper, but in the real world, in the current climate? Nah, it won't work. Even ignoring the fact that we simply can't afford to take the North given the amount of funding they get from the UK and the vast differences in GBP between us and them, I think it would simply cause a toxic environment on the island that would undo so much of what has been achieved in the last 30 years to make us peaceful and prosperous.

I can't see any way forward for NI that won't have negative repercussions. Stay in the UK and they bear the full brunt of the inevitable recession, face border control, and probably lose their dual citizenship. Leave the UK and they will likely have to be their own sovereign state that simply cannot afford to provide for themselves and would still probably be without the EU for an initial few years.
 
On the Irish question, how do people see that working? For the first time, it's going to have to be a proper solid border. No more walking your cattle from one side to the other. It'll be the frontier of the EU and the Shengen area, and as such will need to be secure. Soldiers on the border? Big old fences? Surely that would be a great big spark for trouble.
 
lynchie said:
On the Irish question, how do people see that working? For the first time, it's going to have to be a proper solid border. No more walking your cattle from one side to the other. It'll be the frontier of the EU and the Shengen area, and as such will need to be secure. Soldiers on the border? Big old fences? Surely that would be a great big spark for trouble.
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Nobody really knows. Despite all the chest thumping about "Taking back control of our borders" they were a bit quiet about what they want to do with the only actual border.

NI secretary Theresa Villiers claims nothing would have to change. Others on Vote Leave (quietly) disagree.

http://www.irishnews.com/news/north...d-she-s-wrong-over-post-brexit-border-543742/
 
Cina said:
I think it would simply cause a toxic environment on the island that would undo so much of what has been achieved in the last 30 years to make us peaceful and prosperous.
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Agreed. It'd be such a massive backwards movement for the peace process. Christ, look at the reaction to a feckin flag a while back.
 
Cheesy said:
I voted Yes in 2014 but I'm even more certain that we should now. Our political interests clearly do not align with those of the rest of the UK. We did not vote for Cameron, and Boris is seen as so abhorrent that the devolved equivalent of his own fecking party are considering breaking away for him.

The EU is more important though; we overwhelmingly voted to remain within it, and should seek a method in which to do so. If that's independence, so be it.

Every important argument from 2014 has been demolished. A Labour government? Good luck seeing that again, for a considerable time.

Staying within the EU, or possibly not getting accepted? It really doesn't matter, because we're leaving anyway. And we used to be laughed at for the mere suggestion that this was possible.

Economic uncertainty? Look at the state we're in right now.:lol:

Stability? Again, same as above. How can anyone from the UK government claim with any sort of conviction that we're now more stable in the UK than outside of it considering what's just happened? Especially when we were vehemently against it.

Having to implement controlled borders with England will no doubt be a fecking pain, but at this stage I'd rather take that inconvenience than have the governments of the UK inflicted upon us when we have no interest whatsoever in them.
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Please stay. I have no reason for you to do it, and i wouldnt if i were you. But stay anyway
 
rcoobc said:
Please stay. I have no reason for you to do it, and i wouldnt if i were you. But stay anyway
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I genuinely feel sorry for those in the rest of the UK who didn't vote for this. It's just such a dire state of affairs.
 
lynchie said:
On the Irish question, how do people see that working? For the first time, it's going to have to be a proper solid border. No more walking your cattle from one side to the other. It'll be the frontier of the EU and the Shengen area, and as such will need to be secure. Soldiers on the border? Big old fences? Surely that would be a great big spark for trouble.
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There will never be borders. Shutting off NI like that from the rest of Ireland would be the same as asking unionists to vote on a united Ireland.
It's nearly certain in my eyes that it will stay as it is now but strict procedures for ferries and transport out of Ireland.
You may as well rip up the peace process if border patrols and taking away Irish passports were to happen. The political pressure from America would be all consuming in this situation as well imo. They played a massive part in making the north as safe as it is now.
This is almost guarenteed to be part of any agreement.
 
Cheesy said:
I genuinely feel sorry for those in the rest of the UK who didn't vote for this. It's just such a dire state of affairs.
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Feeling trapped. Stuck in a country that only cares about immigration and the two strongest parties are Tories and UKIP. Makes my skin crawl.
I will soon be joining you buy up north hopefully. You lot have more sense.
 
lynchie said:
On the Irish question, how do people see that working? For the first time, it's going to have to be a proper solid border. No more walking your cattle from one side to the other. It'll be the frontier of the EU and the Shengen area, and as such will need to be secure. Soldiers on the border? Big old fences? Surely that would be a great big spark for trouble.
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It certainly won't be like that. The border will basically be as free-flowing as they can possibly make it as it isn't in either side's interests to have it any other way.
 
The Purist said:
I will admit that is worrying. With that said, I am firmly of the opinion that the majority of people in any country are decent and reasonable. It's just a means of the decent and reasonable people on whatever side of the divide coming together and accepting that the past is the past. It cannot be forgotten but it should be forgiven.

Those who express divisive views, in my opinion, should be called out. Those politicians who goad the 'other side' or are boisterous in opposition to 'the other side' should be shamed. They voted Remain and I say well done to them. But if the vote was to Unite Ireland and remain or to Leave the EU, would Remain still have won? No. And that is the voting culture which needs to be eradicated. N. Irish people are willing to vote for their own well-being up to a point.. but above all else, the 'other side' cannot win. It's a true shame.

Reasonable members of all sides of the community must come together and end this rubbish about 'the other side'. The reasonable people must put an end to sectarianism by speaking openly against it, uniting communities and teaching their children that rejoicing in history is not the way forward.

That is just my two cents. I wish you all the best.
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Sadly that sums up the situation here in a nutshell mate. I know people from a protestant/unionist background who when you speak to them on issues seem quite liberal, but they vote for a staunchly conservative party in the DUP. Because well they don't want Sinn Fein getting too much power. And i know others who do the same only the other way around. It's bonkers.

Look at the flag-gate ffs. I was working in England when it happened and people couldn't believe that all the rioting was just because the council voted to only fly the Union Flag at City Hall on designated days. Or the near £20 million that has been spent over the last 3 years, guarding people sitting in caravans protesting at not being allowed to march a band up a particular fecking road. This place has came a long way in the last 20 years but it still has a long way to go before all the old bullshit is forgotten. The political parties here of course stir this shit up to keep themselves in office, as you say they are divisive.

It'll never happen but i wish these parties would just disappear.
 
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Attila said:
I voted no to independence last time but after yesterday's referendum and the thought of BoJo leading the country and UKIP on the rise in England I think I will vote yes for the next one.

Although the thought of losing the pound (will we?) and switching to the Euro makes me wary

I'm pretty sure that if there is another independence referendum in Scotland it will win. The main worry was the economy but it seems like England have decided to mess it up anyway with the EU vote
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Hurry up and do it I will need the EU passport.
 
Could the Denmark/Greenland/Faroe Islands situation be a solution here? As in Scotland and Northern Ireland remain part of the EU whilst England and Wales being the Greenland and Faroe Islands in this case respectively?

I really don't know. The whole thing just makes me sad.
 
Hopefully Northern Ireland and Scotland leave and we can can start listening to the needs of most of England instead of ignoring it like we have done since the start of devolution. Which I think is at least part of why we are at this juncture.

The only time anyone gives a shit about any Yorkshire MP is when they get shot. Yet it has an almost identical population with Scotland which is never off the TV moaning.
 
Just not the right time to bring up irish unification.
It'll take a generation or maybe 2 before that has a realistic chance to actually unify the population as opposed to divide it.

My solution (that i spent about 10 secs thinking about tbh) would for N. Ireland to remian in the Eu and the UK.
This would allow free travel for eu citizens within the north but only citizens of northern ireland would have free travel within the uk.
It'd push the immigration checks to ports and airports and more natural barriers.
Creating a barrier on the island would be really foolish and wasteful of some great work imo.

Realistically I expect the republic of ireland to have a fairly lax agreement with england shortly enough.
Or i expect thats what ireland will be pushing for, Britain is a very important trading partner for us

Hopefully between the 3 of us we can come to an arrangement that keeps things on an even keel and moving in the right direction.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Hopefully Northern Ireland and Scotland leave and we can can start listening to the needs of most of England instead of ignoring it like we have done since the start of devolution. Which I think is at least part of why we are at this juncture.

The only time anyone gives a shit about any Yorkshire MP is when they get shot. Yet it has an almost identical population with Scotland which is never off the TV moaning.
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Perhaps London can go as well and then all the Little Britainers can have a land of hope and glory street party every week without being bothered by others.
 
caid said:
My solution (that i spent about 10 secs thinking about tbh) would for N. Ireland to remian in the Eu and the UK.
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I think you should have spent a bit longer because NI is in the UK who just voted to leave. It is more or less impossible.
 
i
Don't Kill Bill said:
we can can start listening to the needs of most of England instead of ignoring it like we have done since the start of devolution.
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The government in Westminster, for the last 6 years, has reflected the will of England, and it is a conservative reactionary will. This has been diametrically opposed to the progressive politics chosen by Scotland. A big factor in choosing this government were insinuations that Scotland would hold disproportionate influence if the vote went the other way. The fact that it was an effective tactic was a huge feck-you to the 55% of Scotland that voted to be part of the UK. AFAIK, prior to 2010, England and Scotland chose similarly in the GE.
So, how has England been disenfranchised?
 
Wibble said:
I think you should have spent a bit longer because NI is in the UK who just voted to leave. It is more or less impossible.
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NI status has been hazy for a while. Actually trying to implement a proper, complete closing down of its borders is borderline unworkable imo.
Its going to need some amount of devolution of power to stormont, overlooking some contradictions and allowing them to opt out of some decisions
but I think maintaining the peace and trying to avoid antagonising people is just more important than other concerns.
Or it should be at least imo.

Its a country where the current status quo really shouldn't be messed with, its too hard won and potentially too costly to gamble with
 
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