Next season wont change the issue of him having to play wide though, unless these Rooney transfer rumours are true. So the situation isn't really comparable to Ramires.
Shinji Kagawa
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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Next season wont change the issue of him having to play wide though, unless these Rooney transfer rumours are true. So the situation isn't really comparable to Ramires.
Yeah, Fergie was always a pussy and he was afraid from our big names. If rumors are to be believed, he had an agreement with Ronaldo that if Ronaldo stays for another year then he will choose the formation. It was going ok for a while, but then Ronaldo decided to play as a striker in the final against Barca.
That would be excellent, dropping both Rooney and van Persie because of Lewandowski. Dream signing.
Regardless of the "No.9" I think with the league almost in the bag, it'd be good to let Kagawa play No.10.
I'm amazed the Rooney acolytes think that he is exceptional at No.10 (yeah I know he wears the number!). I've not seen anything (having watched Kagawa quite a lot playing for Dortmund) to dissuade me from thinking that Kagawa is a more effective No.10 than Rooney, period.
I just don't get Rooney. For someone who basically coerced a new contract out of United, he sure as hell doesn't perform like someone who is clearly the best player at the club like Ronaldo, Messi, Ibrahimovic.
Some of his touches and passes on Sunday were simply shocking.
The thing is, I think Rooney's best position is as the main striker. He played there last season and was scoring for fun.
It's very unfortunate for Rooney, but van Persie is better than him. And it's impossible to play all of Kagawa, Rooney and v.Persie in their best positions. Add Welbeck to the mix too.
It's very unfortunate for Rooney, but van Persie is better than him. And it's impossible to play all of Kagawa, Rooney and v.Persie in their best positions. Add Welbeck to the mix too.
Thought he played well against Chelsea, one of the few players to keep the ball and move it on well.
Yeah, I would also like to see Kagawa get more games in that position from now on, rather than wide left, even at expense of Rooney. I am not saying Rooney deserves to be dropped or something like that, but some fighting over positions would do them no harm.
As long as Rooney isnt left out in the cold and RVP become the new undroppable one.
Yes, of course. Squad is too big, so everyone should be dropped sometimes.
Except Carrick of course.
Carrick is untouchable, he can play when he wants.
How about solving part of our MF problems and accomadating Kagawa in his best position all at once?
--------------------RVP---------------------
Young------------Kagawa---------Valencia
----------Rooney----------Carrick-------------
or something along those lines.... not sure I'd like it but I wouldn't bet against seeing it at some stage.
--------------------RVP---------------------
Young------------Kagawa---------Valencia
----------Rooney----------Carrick-------------
or something along those lines.... not sure I'd like it but I wouldn't bet against seeing it at some stage.
Young and Valencia? Really Pops?
Shit, good point
--------------------RVP---------------------
Ronaldo------------Kagawa---------Messi
----------Rooney----------Carrick-------------
--------------------RVP---------------------
Ronaldo------------Kagawa---------Messi
----------Rooney----------Carrick-------------
Here was me thinking you were going mad
What I want to see as well. Rooney can do a good job in midfield, hes a great player, far better than Cleverley and Anderson so why not play him in midfield to allow Kagawa to play in his best position?
Id switch Young and Valencia for Welbeck and Nani though, and go more narrow.
He really can't.
??? Based on what? Elaborate please. He has a good engine, good vision, good short passing and link up play. When on form ofcourse - dont judge him as a player because hes been in a small slump the last 4 or so games (except second half against Norwich) Hes playing in the hole normally, its not much different from what the second midfielder besides Carrick is doing at the moment for us.
Im not saying hes a top class midfielder, he lacks some positional awareness and discipline for that, but hes easily as good as Cleverley and Anderson at the simple midfield stuff and far more likely to come up with something special that ends in a goal.
What rubbish. Rooney has deteriorated in those aspects of his play. You're still judging him from his earlier seasons. His passing and touch for a top player is really average and inconsistant. I wouldn't want to see him anywhere near midfield.
As versatile as Rooney is, Fergie play him in his best position, as the main striker.
Enough of this 'play him in the middle' or on the left wing because he's done OK for us in that position once or twice before bullshit. Yes, he's played blinders when called upon to 'sacrifice' himself to play on the wing, but he's also had his fair share of god awful games in those positions too.
Because we're having to accommodate him in other positions, we're forced to leave out other players who on their day are much better than Rooney on the wing or in central midfield.
Enough of this 'play him in the middle' or on the left wing because he's done OK for us in that position once or twice before bullshit. Yes, he's played blinders when called upon to 'sacrifice' himself to play on the wing, but he's also had his fair share of god awful games in those positions too.
Because we're having to accommodate him in other positions, we're forced to leave out other players who on their day are much better than Rooney on the wing or in central midfield.
He's got good link up play but his short passing is so inconsistent. And I'm one of Rooney's biggest fans. When Ronaldo was here, I feel like Rooney's general play was so much more consistent then it was when he left. Now, when he has a poor game, his passes always wobble and barely reach their target. His long passing is exceptional though. Rooney at his best could be a very good midfielder, but you need consistency for that position and that is just something he doesn't have in his play anymore.
Having the perceived qualities to be a quality midfielder and actually doing a job there are two very different things.
what a load of absolute bollocks.
He's being Sarcastic.
I certainly hope so.
There was a long(20-30 minutes) Kagawa special on Japanese TV the other day. They basically discussed his progress up until now, how hard it is for him to secure his favorite position because of Rooney and RVP, the injury, his hattrick, and what kind of football he wishes to play.
In that interview, we could see that Kagawa only has played 6 out of 12 games in his favorite position. I don't know if this number is surprising or not, but I included it none the less.
There was also a short interview with Alberto Zaccheroni(Japan's coach). He said that Kagawa is a brilliant player who's more versatile than people think, which is why he can play on the left-wing for Japan. He also thinks that Kagawa's greatest skill is his "quickness on the ball". In other words; the way Kagawa stops the ball, and then makes the next move. Whether it's a shot or a pass, it's performed lightning quick and accurate, which obviously makes him a great weapon in the attacking third. I would have to say that I agree with Zaccheroni on this. There are few players out there who can match Kagawa on this skill. Iniesta, Messi, Mata and maybe Silva are the only ones I can think of.
Lastly, Kagawa tried to explain exactly what type of football he wants to play. My Japanese is not fluent so this part was a bit hard to understand, but basically he told us to look at his third goal against Norwich. Look at the way he starts the whole attack on the midfield line, and then ends up far into the opponents box after linking up, and then lobs it over the goalkeeper. The whole attack only consists of 3 players(Kagawa, Welbeck, and Rooney), and it takes less than 9 seconds from the moment Kagawa plays the ball to Welbeck till it ends up in the back of the net. The goal really came out of nowhere, but there are a couple of important factors here.
- First of all, Welbeck entrusts Kagawa with the ball, even though he's stuck centrally with literally nowhere to run, instead of passing it wide to the winger or back into defense.
- Welbeck then makes a good run centrally, which makes it easy for Kagawa to play the ball back to him.
- Welbeck is now pretty much surrounded centrally, but Norwich is still caught off-guard by the fact that Kagawa and Welbeck chose to go down the center, rather than on the flanks. This gives Welbeck enough time to keep the ball long enough for Kagawa to make a 40 yard controlled run into the box.
- Welbeck passes the ball to Rooney, who's barely moved at all in this attack. But being a class player, Rooney catches Kagawa's run and then immidiately plays it into his feet.
- Kagawa uses his majestic first touch and finishing ability to create a goal that no one would have seen coming a few seconds earlier.
Great run and initiative by Welbeck, great awareness and passing by Rooney, awesome run, first touch and finish by Kagawa. It was pretty much a Dortmund attack. Down the center, at least 2 players running fast(in the center), awareness and good short passing, and a goal that pretty much comes out of nowhere. The best way to describe it would be quick, effective, and ruthless tiki-taka.
In that interview, we could see that Kagawa only has played 6 out of 12 games in his favorite position. I don't know if this number is surprising or not, but I included it none the less.
There was also a short interview with Alberto Zaccheroni(Japan's coach). He said that Kagawa is a brilliant player who's more versatile than people think, which is why he can play on the left-wing for Japan. He also thinks that Kagawa's greatest skill is his "quickness on the ball". In other words; the way Kagawa stops the ball, and then makes the next move. Whether it's a shot or a pass, it's performed lightning quick and accurate, which obviously makes him a great weapon in the attacking third. I would have to say that I agree with Zaccheroni on this. There are few players out there who can match Kagawa on this skill. Iniesta, Messi, Mata and maybe Silva are the only ones I can think of.
Lastly, Kagawa tried to explain exactly what type of football he wants to play. My Japanese is not fluent so this part was a bit hard to understand, but basically he told us to look at his third goal against Norwich. Look at the way he starts the whole attack on the midfield line, and then ends up far into the opponents box after linking up, and then lobs it over the goalkeeper. The whole attack only consists of 3 players(Kagawa, Welbeck, and Rooney), and it takes less than 9 seconds from the moment Kagawa plays the ball to Welbeck till it ends up in the back of the net. The goal really came out of nowhere, but there are a couple of important factors here.
- First of all, Welbeck entrusts Kagawa with the ball, even though he's stuck centrally with literally nowhere to run, instead of passing it wide to the winger or back into defense.
- Welbeck then makes a good run centrally, which makes it easy for Kagawa to play the ball back to him.
- Welbeck is now pretty much surrounded centrally, but Norwich is still caught off-guard by the fact that Kagawa and Welbeck chose to go down the center, rather than on the flanks. This gives Welbeck enough time to keep the ball long enough for Kagawa to make a 40 yard controlled run into the box.
- Welbeck passes the ball to Rooney, who's barely moved at all in this attack. But being a class player, Rooney catches Kagawa's run and then immidiately plays it into his feet.
- Kagawa uses his majestic first touch and finishing ability to create a goal that no one would have seen coming a few seconds earlier.
Great run and initiative by Welbeck, great awareness and passing by Rooney, awesome run, first touch and finish by Kagawa. It was pretty much a Dortmund attack. Down the center, at least 2 players running fast(in the center), awareness and good short passing, and a goal that pretty much comes out of nowhere. The best way to describe it would be quick, effective, and ruthless tiki-taka.
Thanks for this interesting summary MW.
What did this programme make of his inability to hold down his favourite position? You mentioned his versatility. So did you get the impression Kagawa is quite happy being shunted around? Or did you get the impression not getting that "in the hole" position is a source of frustration for him?
What did this programme make of his inability to hold down his favourite position? You mentioned his versatility. So did you get the impression Kagawa is quite happy being shunted around? Or did you get the impression not getting that "in the hole" position is a source of frustration for him?
What I enjoyed the most about this interview, was watching Kagawa's body language. He's like a totally different person now! He seems a lot more confident and happy with being a United player. He basically loves the fact that he has to fight so hard to earn his place, and he's definitely up for the challenge. No frustration whatsoever. Just genuine excitement for being a part of all this. He also seems to respect the club a lot.
He really wants to play in Rooney's position and he probably dislikes being pushed out left, but unlike before he doesn't seem so intimidated by the challenge.
That's great to hear. Im looking forward to next season for him already, maybe that is when we will see him really grab his place in our side and make it impossible to leave him out. We've already seen glimpses of it, it is an exciting prospect.
Our team just needs to trust him more in and around the box. Even if he is surrounded by opponents. His quick wit and on the ball ability will get him out of tight spaces most of the time.
Chief, do you think it's "trust" or are we so ingrained/programmed to consistently switch the ball to the wings ad infinitum?
I believe It's a case of trust. We will always be a wing team. But having Kagawa able to do what he can in tight spaces, in the middle, is an asset we haven't really had consistently since Sheringham or Cantona. 0r 2003 when Scholes was magnificent playing just off ruud.
Right now the team is slowly realizing the value of the extra dimension it because Kagawa is coming into his own in a United shirt. The hatrick against vs Norwich and the away game vs Madrid were a great example of the team utilizing his abilty in those areas.
The key to it all will be him and Rooney switching roles constantly, behind RVP/Chicharito, with a marauding down the opposite wing.
It similar to what Bayern use, they too are a wing based team. But they have always retained a threat just off the main front man, down the middle.
I think if things are going the way they are, it's going to be RVP upfront with Kagawa in the hole next season. Funny enough that when Rooney was the best player seasons ago, he asked for a transfer citing lack of quality additions to mount a serious challenge for success. Now that he has competition, he is stagnating and seems to lack the will and drive to assert himself as the alpha male. It wouldn't surprise me if SAF is deeming him replaceable if a good offer arrives.
Which means we have 5 strikers at the club! Unless you mean we would sell Rooney.
Very good observation chief. I think it is down to trust. The only one who trusts Kagawa is Welbeck. I find this strange especially when Cleverley said him and Kagawa are on the same page and love playing 1-2s with each other. Really Tom. Haven't seen it yet.
There have been many occasions where Kagawa was either in space or asking for the ball and he never received it. There was one standout moment against Chelsea where Evra had the ball, Kagawa was wide open but Evra elected to pass to Rooney. Keep in mind, the pass to Rooney was a much more difficult pass.
So we are not seeing the best of Kagawa because no one trusts him him with the ball in tight areas. That makes perfect sense
That's not the only reason but I do believe it's a factor. You just need to see how he played with Dortmund. He likes to play in tight areas and play the ball quickly.
The whole point is the boy knows his strengths but we as a team aren't really using it. Not trusting him that much is a by-product of that.
Bayern might use width well but they keep the ball in tight spaces very well too. We don't do that. Kagawa would thrive in the united style of the beginning of last season.
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