Indeed.
Shinji Kagawa
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Indeed.
How many times have we seen Rooney at his best in the last couple of years though? If we go with a 4-4-2 then fine, I would agree that Rooney is the better player, but if we ever try to play with a real fluid 4-2-3-1 then I think that Kagawa is better for that job.
Rooney best spell IMO was in 2009-2010 when he played as the main striker.
Rooney best spell IMO was in 2009-2010 when he played as the main striker.
You may have a point here (it's still debatable), but Van Persie is a better striker. That means Rooney has to play somewhere else and I really don't like it when he plays on the wing. Rooney behind the striker and Kagawa on the left seems like the best compromise.
I disagree, it was 2009/2010 for me - he would games for us on his own in that season.
As opposed to Kagawa who was amazing last year? Rooney had a poor season last year but he was still miles better than Kagawa.
Rooney wasn't that good in 2009/2010, got a lot of goals but we were really limiting his overall play having him up top, plus I think Brwned made a post a while back showing that we really didn't use him that much up there at all, peoples views were probably just obscured by the more memorable games where he did. He was far better and more influential to our overall game in the latter end of 10/11.
Why is Kagawa better for the job? Rooney can do almost everything Kagawa can do, better than him. Just because they play different "roles" in that position doesn't mean they don't actually play the same position and thus the better player for that position should be played there.
Really not sure how people can hold that opinion. He was on a goal spree that season for sure but his overall play was completely sacrificed in order to do that.
Well, SAF hardly give the chance to Kagawa last season, so I don't think that it is fair to compare that. If you want compare Rooney to Kagawa of Dortmund and then you'll see that there isn't that much difference between them.
He gave him plenty of chances.
Kagawa of Dortmund was a very good player but he was never, ever better than Rooney at his best, otherwise I'd say the whole of the football world would've been f@pping themselves silly over him.
He was very consistent and won a lot of games in his own. On the next season he was shit for about half of it and then in the second part was good but I don't think that he ever replicated the form of 2009-2010.
Talking about sacrificing the other aspects of his game in order to score was 2011-2012 season, when he despite scored more goals than in any other season wasn't near as good as in 2009-2010.
Nah, he was dragging us through games at times... he wasn't just knocking them in for fun, he was contributing a shit load to our team. He was pretty much the focal point of everything we did, and all our attacking play went through him. He was a beast that season.
He was good in 2011, but he wasn't as integral as he was in 2010... in fact, we managed chunks of that season without him quite well.
I'm not talking about the overall season though, I made it pretty clear that I was talking about the latter end of 10/11, which is when he had his best two/three months for us. I'd also argue he was as good in 06/07 as 09/10.
Again, "latter half". Will you lot read?
26 games (some of them as subs) and almost all of them out of position isn't plenty of chances. He didn't give Kagawa as much chances as Welbeck, despite I think Kagawa is a better player than Welbeck in almost everything.
Well that's obscuring the fact that he was injured for around three months total now isn't it? When Kagawa was fit, especially in the first half of the season, SAF gave him plenty of games.
You didn't say latter half originally, that only came in that reply to Revan, which I read after I made my post.
So read that!! Yeah, you've read it good.
true, it's not hard to comprehend though is it? he was after all, injured until February! I also said "spell" which doesn't really imply the whole thing.
How so? You've put each in a position where the other would perform better.
Is Rooney playing the No 10 role in the manner which he does at present going to take the team forward and improve it? Will United's style evolve into something more competitive continentally and dominant domestically?
Rooney wasn't injured until February. He played a lot of games in the first half of the season when he was a bit shit, and then also had the problems with the contract.
Was he injured for three months? I think that it was less than that.
regardless, I said "latter end", not the whole thing. not that hard to comprehend is it? Seems you were just branching it out to the overall season to try justify your point.
two months at the start anyway, pretty sure he was out another few weeks on top of that.
It is when you say "Rooney's best ever spell was 10/11 as a #10 behind Hernandez." ... the 10 part alludes to the 2010 portion of a 2010/2011 season...
I'm taking this one... now concede dammit!
I don't remember that.
I'm hardly going to say "Rooney's best spell was 11 as a #10" am I? Does anyone ever not use xx/xx when talking about a particular season?
Anyway, this is going off topic. I originally responded to a claim that Kagawa at his best at Dortmund was better than Rooney has ever been at his best here, which I just find to be an absurd statement.
I'm hardly going to say "Rooney's best spell was 11 as a #10" am I? Does anyone ever not use xx/xx when talking about a particular season?
You could have simply said either "Rooney's best spell was in 2011 as a #10" or "Rooney's best spell was during the later half of the 2010/2011 English Football Season as a #10".... but you didn't, thus allowing for understandable confusion to reign.
If you think about it, this is really all your fault.
Indeed it is. Like always. Sack Cina, Sell Cina.
You're a reasonably smart fellow AN!, and a fellow bro, so you can't have possibly thought I was referring to Rooney's overall season in 10/11, when it was widely accepted the first half of it was a total write-off because of the transfer saga and injuries. I didn't specify because I didn't fecking think I needed to!
I thought you were being good old controversial/outlandish Cina... enemy of the people.
Or I thought you were suggesting that Rooney's good spells during the 2010/11 season were good enough to warrant that whole season to be regarded as his best ever season for us - something which I would dispute.
Can't agree with that, Rooney wouldn't perform better than Kagawa on the left while he can perform to a very high standard behind the striker. In a fluid 4-2-3-1, Kagawa can still move to central positions coming from the left with Evra providing the width. I remember him doing that well a few times last season and I think it's a role he can grow in. Isn't that how he plays for Japan as well?
I'd dispute it too, his best overall seasons were 06/07 and 09/10, his best prolonged spell, i.e. 2-3 months was 10/11. I do like being controversial, I also like speaking to people who use common sense AN!, can you please grant me that?
Nah, it's much more entertaining to argue pointless things... I found myself agreeing with too much of your transfer forum postings anyway, it was getting a bit dull.
... wanna feck?
In fairness though Cina, Rooney playing that role is different from Kagawa in many ways. I don't doubt Rooney's stats would be better, but would the team be better is the question?
I think Kagawa would provide a level of control that Rooney can't in the final third. Rooney there would probably get better stats than most players, but we watch him play there and get 2 assists to his name and we moan about his touch, his composure, his ability to pressure.
Although the same position, I think they'd play the role in completely different ways, Rooney looks to spread the ball out wide whereas Kagawa aims to keep the ball around the box until an opportunity comes to play someone behind.
I definitely think a 3 of Nani, Rooney and Kagawa could work - with all 3 swapping positions and interchanging though. I think Kagawa could play on the left OK under Moyes as long as he is given some freedom to tuck in and bring the ball inside.
I think Kagawa would provide a level of control that Rooney can't in the final third. Rooney there would probably get better stats than most players, but we watch him play there and get 2 assists to his name and we moan about his touch, his composure, his ability to pressure.
Although the same position, I think they'd play the role in completely different ways, Rooney looks to spread the ball out wide whereas Kagawa aims to keep the ball around the box until an opportunity comes to play someone behind.
I definitely think a 3 of Nani, Rooney and Kagawa could work - with all 3 swapping positions and interchanging though. I think Kagawa could play on the left OK under Moyes as long as he is given some freedom to tuck in and bring the ball inside.
Yeah that´s true...
Klopp doesn´t have a clue how to use players...
Like I said the best games Kagawa has played for us he has played centrally so Klopp might be on to something!
Uh ... yes.
Rooney at his best is by far our most influential player. Sadly we haven't seen him at his best in a wee while.
There's plenty of posters on the CAF that think Kagawa should start over Rooney or Rooney should be shifted wide left so Kagawa can play in his natural position. It's the reason I think he's abit over-rated on the CAF by certain sections.
Kagawa is wildly overrated on the Caf. I've seen people say we shouldn't sign Ozil (a far better player) cause it'll mean playing Kagawa out of position...
That's the thing though, what is his best now?
He still seems to lack the ability to take a man on, whether it's his fitness or his confidence or a bit of both. Kagawa can drift past a man to make some room for himself, Rooney doesn't seem capable of doing that anymore.
Once he's been closed down, there's not a great deal he can do usually but a simple pass or spreading it out wide - it harms his creativity.
However going by the evidence at United, Rooney is proven as effective on the left wing and Kagawa's standard noticeably improve when started centrally.
And as for the other two questions? You believe that the Rooney of the present can see the team progress to something better that its current ceiling of performances? The past 18+ months don't provide much cause to think so.
Kagawa played his best game for the us in the 4-0 win against Norwich, where he showed he can be brilliant coming from the wing and scored a hattrick. Saying he's at his best in the centre I take no issue with, saying he's wasted on the wing I completely disagree with.
Exactly. If Rooney is a United player, he is going to be playing the number 10 role and the best Kagawa can hope for is being shifted wide left and playing there which is the problem. Personally I am hoping Nani returns to something like his best this season and if he does I'm not sure if you can fit him, Kagawa, RVP and Rooney in the same starting eleven. Nani's decent defensively but I don't see any manager picking a wing duo of Nani and Kagawa in this tucked in position.
Rooney is better than Kagawa, bias and hatred aside, this is really something easy to see. Why didn't SAF all of people play Kagawa that many matches in his best position over Rooney (a season in which Rooney was far from his best) ? There is the hope (based on previous Dortmund performances but then again the two teams are completely different) to see Kagawa play there and there is the reality.
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