'Should we keep RvP and Rooney happy and sacrifice Shinji?'
Yeah, because they're ... better players?
Yeah, because they're ... better players?
Shinji Kagawa
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They're also partly responsible for our poor performances these days. Playing two stars might not always benefit the team. It's time to try something new.
I didn't really consider this position! I like it! It's both fluid and offensive. It also allows us to play Rooney, RVP, Kagawa and Januzaj! Seeing as both Rooney and Kagawa are incredibly mobile, I don't think Carrick will suffer at all. RVP will might have a slightly harder time scoring, but with both Kagawa and Rooney pulling the strings in the attacking third, the goals are bound to come eventually.
--------------- Carrick -------------
Valencia - Rooney - Kagawa - Januzaj
---------------- RVP ---------------
Alternatively we change Valencia for Nani.
I know you wrote the second part to try and justify that point, but just . Totally and utterly wrong maestro.
We're struggling to create chances and goals from open play. They are our main attackers.
Conclusion: they are at least partly responsible for our bad performances.
I haven't seen anything from Kagawa to suggest that he is part of our best line-up. Welbeck is a more flexible and useful player to have on the field.
I think he has a point, I think that we're sacrificing team balance to play both Van Persie and Rooney.
It wasn't so bad when Rooney was happy to drop deep to collect the ball and do plenty of hard work off the ball, but now he wants to share that responsibility with Van Persie and stay further up the field for longer periods, I think we suffer because of it.
I don't think they link particularly well together, perhaps when Rooney is playing from deep but definitely not when they're in close proximity. Of course, you could try to argue against that with their assists numbers for eachother this season - but pretty much every single assist was routine (corners, rebounds mostly)
It wasn't so bad when Rooney was happy to drop deep to collect the ball and do plenty of hard work off the ball, but now he wants to share that responsibility with Van Persie and stay further up the field for longer periods, I think we suffer because of it.
I don't think they link particularly well together, perhaps when Rooney is playing from deep but definitely not when they're in close proximity. Of course, you could try to argue against that with their assists numbers for eachother this season - but pretty much every single assist was routine (corners, rebounds mostly)
Yeah let's just forget the defense, or the Central midfielders and the wingers supposed to supply our forwards, and instead target the two men who have provided 22 goals and assists between them this season already. Let's bring in Kagawa who will supersede these statistics 
.
Like it or not, when these two are playing badly, they manage to get assists and goals; it's what wins matches. Players like Kagawa play bad, it results in nothing. We don't need that right now I'm afraid. I was so excited to hear Kagawa was arriving from Dortmund as I had seen a handful of games as to what this guy was bringing to the table. But as far as I can recollect, he has played one game where he was a standout player, and that was against Norwich at home in almost a year and a quarter now. That is not impressive.
. Like it or not, when these two are playing badly, they manage to get assists and goals; it's what wins matches. Players like Kagawa play bad, it results in nothing. We don't need that right now I'm afraid. I was so excited to hear Kagawa was arriving from Dortmund as I had seen a handful of games as to what this guy was bringing to the table. But as far as I can recollect, he has played one game where he was a standout player, and that was against Norwich at home in almost a year and a quarter now. That is not impressive.
Saying they don't play well together isn't quite right.
They can play well together and have linked up to great affect on many occasions. It's just in the current system, it doesn't allow that to happen as often.
Both can definitely play together, just need to be used differently (Rooney in behind rather than along side).
Yeah, I don't agree with that either. I think he's more than capable to adapt to our style of play, becoming a playmaker from the left, especially with Evra providing width from the back. But he's not going to do it from the bench.
Contrary to majority here, I think Fergie got it spot on last season. He was used sparingly earlier, but he gradually given more responsibility when he played, and started most of the game at the second half of the season. That away game in Madrid was great management by Fergie. He took risk by playing an attacking player with less defensive game in an away game against a team that contains the (2nd) best player in the world. In the end we got the result we want in that game, but Fergie also get a player with massive confidence boost. And as the season went on he was playing better and justify his selection.
One of the thing I hope Moyes can learn is to take risk for the sake of greater reward in terms of attacking play. I think Kagawa is one of the gamble that he needs to make because if he won it, the reward will be fantastic. Which is why I hope he keep his place on left midfield for the next game.
When he plays we struggle, he is always but wide right but he comes inside and we lack width. I understand he likes to play in the middle but you have to sacrifice for the team. At the very least switch it up, When he is on there is nobody on the left it makes us predictable and the middle very clogged. There just is no space for him here, he lacks the skillset to play as a traditional winger and where he wants to play there are better players.
Van Persie - Rooney
Kagawa
Cleverley - Januzaj
Carrick
Evra --------------------- Rafael
Vidic - Jones
De Gea
Y'all knows it makes sense. Our wingers and wing play is shit. Who needs 'em.
Football eh? Just last week he was lauded for his performance and now all of a sudden we're back to him being utter wank.
I think he needs a run of games. We've seen the best and worst of him within the space of what, 4 days?
I think he needs a run of games. We've seen the best and worst of him within the space of what, 4 days?
I don't think he was poor at all. Just played too safe, kept the ball well enough, but then he doesn't really have the pace/strength to play on the wing.
I think this irrational desire for Kagawa to succeed comes from our desperation for better football. He's not been great but when he plays we get a rare glimpse of what football would be if we didn't spray the ball wide and get a cross in every single possession.
THe diamond we played against Newcastle last season was fantastic. I really don't know why we didn't try that again.
THe diamond we played against Newcastle last season was fantastic. I really don't know why we didn't try that again.
Very interesting, I would definitely like to see that. And if things aren't working well or we need more width, we can always bring on either valencia or nani for kagawa later on in the game.
This is exactly it. People are expecting him to magically transform our playing style, and it's simply not going to happen, for the foreseeable at least. So with that in mind he needs to adapt to our style rather than having the other 9 outfield players adjust to his.
Wanting Kagawa to succeed is now irrational?
Yeah, that's not it. He's a player who is a piece to the way we should be playing, as is Januzaj. Bending players to play our static style of football is not the answer. Or at least it shouldn't be. If this is the way we were going to play, I'd rather have Jose, whom I didn't want because his style bore the shit out of me. As has United for over a year.
It's his only choice atm. He certainly falls into the square peg for a round hole, and arguably did last season. Unless he adapts he'll be dropped or potentially shipped out.
Our current playing style is not exclusive to Moyes or the current squad. We haven't played free flowing, passing football for years now. Kagawa and to a lesser extent Januzaj are not going to change this in the short term. At least Januzaj has shown he is more than capable in our current system, Kagawa has shown glimpses, but by and large has flattered to deceive.
Which everyone is ignoring.
I don't think it's necessary to change our style to accommodate Kagawa. Just let him play behind the main striker, and he'll adapt quickly enough.
Ever since Kagawa came back from his injury, he's probably only spent around 100 minutes(+/-) behind the main striker. During these minutes though, he has managed to get 3 goals and 2 assists. He's also created many chances and been generally awesome. I'm therefore really puzzled at why he's not been given more chances in that position. To point back to his mediocre games last autumn is really not a good argument, considering that he was playing his first PL games ever. After the injury(and arguably after he had managed to adapt to the PL), he's looked World Class whenever he's played there. Easily on par with his Dortmund days.
Yeah, we're only talking about around 100 minutes here, but I still think that these minutes gives us an idea of what we can expect of Kagawa in that position. He deserves more chances behind the main striker, seeing as he's taken his chances so well when he's played there.
Ever since Kagawa came back from his injury, he's probably only spent around 100 minutes(+/-) behind the main striker. During these minutes though, he has managed to get 3 goals and 2 assists. He's also created many chances and been generally awesome. I'm therefore really puzzled at why he's not been given more chances in that position. To point back to his mediocre games last autumn is really not a good argument, considering that he was playing his first PL games ever. After the injury(and arguably after he had managed to adapt to the PL), he's looked World Class whenever he's played there. Easily on par with his Dortmund days.
Yeah, we're only talking about around 100 minutes here, but I still think that these minutes gives us an idea of what we can expect of Kagawa in that position. He deserves more chances behind the main striker, seeing as he's taken his chances so well when he's played there.
This argument is always circular. It would be great to be able to play him 'behind the striker' but there isn't a chance we would drop Rooney/Van Persie from the side on a regular basis and there isn't a viable formation to fit them all in without playing one wide.
Be nice to see him pulling the strings tomorrow though, and perhaps in further league cup games, should we win. Maybe a dead rubber CL group game, if we get a game to spare.
Why not? If dropping one would enable the team (emphasis on team) to play better collectively, then the logical conclusion would be to drop one of them. It's not the first time we've done this (Ruud). Now a debate can be had on whether playing Kagawa behind the striker (either Rooney or RVP) would allow the team to play better, but it's a rational debate, with good arguments on both sides.
When he plays wide, he drifts centrally the majority of the time. All this rubbish about him not playing in his preferred position is bullshit, and always trotted out by the Kagawa apologists. His position doesn't seem defined and he seems to pop up where he likes, but he's likely told when defending to cover LW, or share responsibilty with Rooney.
At the expense of Rooney in his present form?
At least you've been honest about the first part of your username.
Can you realistically see that though? Ruud fell out with Fergie and wanted away so I'm not sure that's as viable a comparison as it first looks. Moyes has only just taken over and the aforementioned are our best two players. The wolves would be well and truly circling if Moyes decided Van Persie deserved an extended spell on our bench.
We easily won the Premiership with the pair last season with Rooney in no kind of form. The problem is the service they receive. Shinji has been part of the problem in however minutes he has played.
Maybe I'm being slightly moronic here but there is a difference between playing wide left and drifting inside to playing centrally. In the latter when Kagawa has the ball he has more options, he can go left to the left winger who is presumably making a run, or right to the other winger who is also making a run, he can go through to the striker, or knock it the attacking fullbacks. However, in the former Kagawa is the left winger so naturally that option is no longer available to him, and considering he's a player who relies on the movement of others to make an impact that's quite a big deal. It isn't as simple as looking at his average position on the pitch, seeing it is central and therefore deciding he's basically playing in the same position anyway, there were times at the weekend when he came central and was effectively occupying the same space that Rooney and RVP were, which obviously limits the options Kagawa then has on the ball. I thought this at the time and I think Saturday proved it, Ryan Giggs' performance against Sociedad was a big factor in why Kagawa played so well, he does this amazing thing which our other midfielders don't do, he moves forward into space, whether on the ball or without it. In doing that, he then gives Kagawa options when Kagawa has it or he leaves space for Kagawa to move into, which is where he thrives.
If our tumescent displays in the league continue with both of our star strikers on the pitch, Moyes will be in the hot seat anyways, so why not try something new?
But yes, I agree the possibility of that happening is slim, Moyes has shown a tendency to be conservative when possible.
For a player like Kagawa who didn't really start playing on the wing before coming here(Japan doesn't count. Read up on the countless posts if you wonder why), it's a huge difference between playing on the wing and cutting in, and playing behind the striker. If you're not able to see the major difference, then there's no point continuing this discussion. We're on completely different wave-lengths then.
Oh, and don't give me the "Mata/Silva" argument.
I think it's very important to consider his average position, is unimportant to pay attention to starting lineup formations where he often placed on the left. He does occupy the central role, and rarely makes runs etc from the left.
The bolded part I agree with. With 2/3 players occupying the same space we limit our attacking options and it makes it much easier to defend against.
He either needs to work on a better understanding, in what is essentially a roaming role, with his other teammates, or adapt to a LW position and not float into areas that are already occupied.
We won the Premiership because RVP was so ruthless in front of goal, and our rivals were just diabolical in the league. Our style of play was nothing to write home about, and many people believe that placing a proper no 10 behind the striker would better link midfield and attack, get our wingers more involved (instead of hitting cross after cross hoping one sticks), and get the most out of the team, not just the strikers. The amount of teams that have achieved feck all while having strikers on their teams having excellent seasons are too many to count (Arsenal with RVP for example).
People are unfortunately not willing to even consider this solution. The true FM spirit dictates that the biggest stars have to play, no matter what.
I laugh at the people who claim that Kagawa needs to "take his chances". Has he not done exactly that whenever he's played in his position? It's on the left wing that he struggles! And that's only to expect from a player who started his career as a defensive midfielder and has remained fairly central in the pitch until he got here. Again: the Japanese natonal team does not count. Stop using that as an argument for Kagawa being a winger.
But he doesn't play on the wing and cuts in rarely. For the majority of his time on the pitch he is central. He clearly has instructions to defend LW when we don't have the ball, but when we have the ball and are attacking he's central. Prime example of a Kagawa apologist.
Also why not mention Silva/Mata? They provide a case that a player of Kagawa's skill can adapt to a wide, roaming role.
I have acknowledged that questioning whether the team play would improve with Kagawa in the no 10 position is a legitimate question. The ramifications of dropping a big name are huge. Can Moyes handle the criticism if the change doesn't work out for a while? Will either Rooney or RVP be comfortable with being shunted to the bench or the wing to accomodate a proper 10? Will ego/dressing room issues get in the way? Bla bla bla...
It's also possible that Kagawa can adapt and work well from the left. It's less probable than him working through the middle. All I'm saying is after the investment, it would be a massive shame to not give him a run in that position and see what he can do, before making a long term decision.
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