Shinji Kagawa

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I'm never going to understand the consensus that all top no.10s have to be able to play really well in at least one more position. Why? Why can't there be specialist no.10s just like there are specialist goalgetters, wingers, CMs, and defenders? What makes the whole thing even more weird, is that the people who hold this belief, usually are the same people who think that the no.10 position is the most important position where the man in charge needs to be a star. Doesn't that just further prove that there should be specialist AMs out there? It all seems so mindblowingly contradictory to me.

A top no.10 is usually:

1) A CM with too many offensive qualities to stay back in midfield.
or
2) A versatile winger
or
3) A versatile, particularly mobile striker

Most no.10s fall into one of these categories, but not all. This is one of the things that make Kagawa so unique. Unlike Mata, Silva and Özil, he simply cannot play in a different position and cut it at the highest level. There is no other top no.10 in the world right now who's level drops so significantly as Kagawa's, when played in a different position. You might consider this an argument against him starting, but really, why should it be so? Give me one logical reason for why a player can't be a specialist no.10? That's what I thought... There are none.

Rooney is a striker who can handle the no.10 role. Januzaj seems to be equally good on the wing, or at least not significantly worse. Kagawa does not have these luxuries. He's a pure AM in every sense of the word. Why not use him in his favored position? Why should Rooney and RVP be guaranteed a spot when they mess up our entire setup? We're not good enough for 4-4-2. We need a proper AM. We have one, but refuse to you use him. And that is why we fail. That is why we can count the truly good performances of this season on one hand.

Catering to egos wont help the team long term. Just because we're not that far behind the rest of the teams, our results don't tell the full story.
 
They're better than he is and have a set of balls to go with it. That's why two successive managers have started them ahead of Kagawa and why 99% of managers would.
 
acnumber9 said:
They're better than he is and have a set of balls to go with it. That's why two successive managers have started them ahead of Kagawa and why 99% of managers would.
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It doesn't matter that they're better if we're not good enough to accommodate both of them.

And to state that 99% of managers would have used them instead of Kagawa, is arrogant to say the least. Chances are that coaches like Klopp, Pep and Wenger would have used Kagawa if they had the same set of players. It's also not so sure that Fergie wouldn't have used Kagawa in that position either, he had still been around. Kagawa got to start a fair amount of games in that position under Fergie, even sometimes when both RVP and Rooney were fit. The reason for why he ended his season on the left wing, was because Rooney and RVP had started to gel and Kagawa had been out with injury for a while. Fergie also probably knew that RVP is in his prime and should play as much as possible, at least in his first season. Kagawa(who was 23 then), still has time to develop as a player.

The first season was mainly for Kagawa to adjust to the PL. It's therefore pretty safe to assume that Kagawa would have at least gotten a chance in the no.10 position if Fergie were still around. He'd maybe not be an automatic starter there, but he'd definitely have been given a proper chance to prove himself. We've played 18 competitive games now if we include the community shield. Yet Kagawa still hasn't started a single game in the no.10 position, despite us not even playing good football. That's just absurd. Fergie would definitely have tried something different occassionally. He was known for his ability to adapt.
 
Mad Winger said:
It doesn't matter that they're better if we're not good enough to accommodate both of them.

And to state that 99% of managers would have used them instead of Kagawa, is arrogant to say the least. Chances are that coaches like Klopp, Pep and Wenger would have used Kagawa if they had the same set of players. It's also not so sure that Fergie wouldn't have used Kagawa in that position either, he had still been around. Kagawa got to start a fair amount of games in that position under Fergie, even sometimes when both RVP and Rooney were fit. The reason for why he ended his season on the left wing, was because Rooney and RVP had started to gel and Kagawa had been out with injury for a while. Fergie also probably knew that RVP is in his prime and should play as much as possible, at least in his first season. Kagawa(who was 23 then), still has time to develop as a player.

The first season was mainly for Kagawa to adjust to the PL. It's therefore pretty safe to assume that Kagawa would have at least gotten a chance in the no.10 position if Fergie were still around. He'd maybe not be an automatic starter there, but he'd definitely have been given a proper chance to prove himself. We've played 18 competitive games now if we include the community shield. Yet Kagawa still hasn't started a single game in the no.10 position, despite us not even playing good football. That's just absurd. Fergie would definitely have tried something different occassionally. He was known for his ability to adapt.
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I don't think you're in a position to talk about arrogant statements here. Mourinho won't use Mata, what makes you think he'd play Kagawa outside of you believing Kagawa is the second coming of our lord and saviour?
 
Mad Winger, you have to understand that Kagawa isn't as good as Rooney, and probably won't ever be. Rooney and Van Persie are both some of the best players in the world so will always play when fit, and that's the way 99% of managers would do it as well. Kagawa's only chance to succeed at United is to play on the left, unless one of the strikers leave. Kagawa has been nothing more then decent on the left, but we have potentially one of the best players in the world in Januzaj who can play on the wings and through the middle. I was fully supportive of kagawa and wanted him to be part of our first team, but we gave him a chance and I just don't think he's cut out for a team like United. If he's okay to being a squad player then better for us, but I think we can all agree he deserves to be playing week in week out at a top club, but that club just isn't United because he isn't suited for us.
 
bosnian_red said:
Kagawa isn't as good as Rooney, and probably won't ever be.
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I would usually have considered that to be a bold prediction, but seeing as we're currently wasting Kagawa's time, that might just turn out to be true. Still, Kagawa in his Dortmund days(age 21-23) was easily on par with Rooney age 21-23, if not better. And seeing as Kagawa is a player who plays with his head much more than Rooney, I'd say he has a lot more to go on in terms of potential. I get goosebumps just imagining how great Kagawa would have been now if he had stayed in Dortmund. I'm starting to think he made a horrible mistake coming here. I don't who that says more about: him or us?


Kagawa's only chance to succeed at United is to play on the left
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Bye bye, Kagawa! Please spare us if you ever meet us in the Champions League as the star of a different team. The top reds will have a meltdown if you don't.


but we gave him a chance
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Judging by his time up until now: no we didn't.
 
bosnian_red said:
Mad Winger, you have to understand that Kagawa isn't as good as Rooney, and probably won't ever be.
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I disagree. I think that Kagawa is far more technical and has the ability to create chances for his teammates much more so than Rooney can.

Rooney, as vital as he is for United, like MadWinger pointed out, can play number 10, but unlike the 'pure' playmakers that take up this position (Ozil, Carzola, Mata, Silva - i'd put Kagawa into this category too), is far too selfish in the sense that he'd look to shoot from distance or look to play a long diagonal pass (more often than not) first, before trying to look for a short simple pass / through ball.

While i'm sure Kagawa would thrive if given the number 10 role, if he played for Arsenal / Barca / Chelsea (post and pre Mourinho rejoining) / and even City, United, simply don't play that way, and I don't think this will change for the foreseeable future - which means unfortunately, that Kagawa will continue to be a luxury player for us, unless he changes his own style (which I think would be a huge waste of his talent) or we suddenly decide to drop Rooney - which on his current form, is near impossible.
 
Theon said:
Absolutely true, their right flank would wreck havoc with Fellaini giving the cover. Jones could play it though, maybe Clev but he wouldn't be great.

A bit above you said Valencia could play it. Where has that come from?
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From being a hard worker and having some experience playing even more centrally for his country. With a diamond the responsibility for putting good balls into the box falls onto the wingback rather than the side of a diamond player. So his hard work, strength, competing, running the ball up the pitch, etc would see him effectively executing his role without also having the responsibility of making sure good crosses come into the box. As long as he works up and down he's played well
 
Mad Winger said:
We've played 18 competitive games now if we include the community shield. Yet Kagawa still hasn't started a single game in the no.10 position, despite us not even playing good football. That's just absurd. Fergie would definitely have tried something different occassionally. He was known for his ability to adapt.
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I know where you are coming from, but it is sad, that the person who Kagawa needed to replace has been giving back to back MotM performances. I don't think even Fergie would bench Rooney when on this form. Kagawa may be a better No.10, but Rooney offers much more in linking up with the middle that Kagawa can. Ozil is not comparable as he has a better roaming licence because Carzola, Rosciky and Ramsey are more fluid in changing places. Apart from Januzaj, neither Nani, Valencia, Young of Giggs can do that in out team. So a pure No.10 would not fit in with our team.
 
Oh Shinji, Shinji, what to do?
A riddle wrapped in a mystery, that's you.
Rarely has a United minion,
So completely divided opinion.
On the left or down the middle.
In a nutshell, that's the riddle.
Youve shown us glimpses of what you can do.
But at other times look rather poo.
Seze your chance, son. Make us proud.
Or else you'll leave under a cloud.
 
I don't see any reason why Kagawa can't mould the left side position into (not as a winger) his own and keep drifting inside and be effective - David Silva style.
 
SirAF said:
I don't see any reason why Kagawa can't mould the left side position into (not as a winger) his own and keep drifting inside and be effective - David Silva style.
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Well they are very different players. Silva is a much better passer, whereas Kagawa is great at bombing forward and getting a goal. You don't have to get so far forward to do what Silva does, play another player in with a great pass.
 
I don't think Silva is particularly better at passing. But he's better at taking players on and running with the ball in his feet. He also has wastly more winger experience at top level.

But I'm off to work. Looking forward to see the rest of the discussion later.
 
Mad Winger said:
I don't think Silva is particularly better at passing. But he's better at taking players on and running with the ball in his feet. He also has wastly more winger experience at top level.

But I'm off to work. Looking forward to see the rest of the discussion later.
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:lol: Jesus Christ.
 
Silva is a lot better at passing, especially the consistancy of using it to create chances. Kagawa has never been that type of player to unlock defences with his passes, he was a player who supported the front man and scored goals at Dortmund at his best. I cant believe people still don't get that. Yes he can sometimes play a really nice pass, but you can't count on him to do it game after game like a player in the Silva or Ozil mould. Nani can play a defence splitting pass too, it doesn't mean he's anywhere near as good a passer as Silva
 
Mad Winger said:
I don't think Silva is particularly better at passing. But he's better at taking players on and running with the ball in his feet. He also has wastly more winger experience at top level.

But I'm off to work. Looking forward to see the rest of the discussion later.
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Where are we going to get biased opinions now?
 
Mad Winger said:
I don't think Silva is particularly better at passing. But he's better at taking players on and running with the ball in his feet. He also has wastly more winger experience at top level.

But I'm off to work. Looking forward to see the rest of the discussion later.
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Christ, that's bad. Even for you.
 
Cina said:
I thought FV loved Messi and Cal? loved Ronaldo?
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Oh yes, you're 100% right. Both were as bad as each other, Mad Winger is worse than them. At least they idolized genuine world class players and who proved time and time again their class. MW lives in a world of fantasy and conjectures.
 
kouroux said:
Oh yes, you're 100% right. Both were as bad as each other, Mad Winger is worse than them. At least they idolized genuine world class players and who proved time and time again their class. MW lives in a world of fantasy and conjectures.
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I don't think Messi and Ronaldo are particularly better goalscorers than Kagawa, they're just better at scoring them.
 
Cina said:
I don't think Messi and Ronaldo are particularly better goalscorers than Kagawa, they're just better at scoring them.
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We shouldn't talk about Kagawa like that because what if he signs for another club and we meet in the CL :nervous: ... I'm already terrified by that thought.
 
FranklyVulgar was alright, he at least provided a more intelligent counterbalance to the spasticity of Boss, Cal and Lailliani around that time when Messi v Ronaldo was at its peak.
 
Well, what can you say? Shinji has been a bit unlucky. If RVP hadn't been too tempting for Fergie he might've been well established as a No 10 for us as we speak. And if Fergie hadn't retired, he might've had his breakthrough in said role this season, behind RVP, as the old man would've plausibly shipped Rooney out. But these things happen at top clubs - sometimes you just luck out because you happen to excel in the wrong position.

If Rooney signs an extension I reckon Kagawa's pretty much finished here. Unless. Unless he actually manages to make more of an impact from the left. The idea people had - that Moyesie doesn't fancy him - clearly doesn't hold water. And I still think there's a chance he'll come good with regular time in that LW-ish role. The chances of him taking over for Rooney in the middle, however, look extremely slim at the moment. Rooney will have to leave to make room for him - or so I think right now. But feck knows things change fast sometimes in football.
 
bosnian_red said:
Mad Winger, you have to understand that Kagawa isn't as good as Rooney, and probably won't ever be. Rooney and Van Persie are both some of the best players in the world so will always play when fit, and that's the way 99% of managers would do it as well. Kagawa's only chance to succeed at United is to play on the left, unless one of the strikers leave. Kagawa has been nothing more then decent on the left, but we have potentially one of the best players in the world in Januzaj who can play on the wings and through the middle. I was fully supportive of kagawa and wanted him to be part of our first team, but we gave him a chance and I just don't think he's cut out for a team like United. If he's okay to being a squad player then better for us, but I think we can all agree he deserves to be playing week in week out at a top club, but that club just isn't United because he isn't suited for us.
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People don't get it. He isn't saying Kagawa is better, at least I don't think he is. He is saying our team is STRONGER playing someone else who is better than Kagawa on the left, while playing Kagawa centrally. Overall the AVERAGE level of play between the two positions would be higher.

Let's just use Rooney and Kagawa as hypothetical examples.

Let's rate these guys on a scale of 1-10 as CAM and LAM.

Rooney is a 9 at CAM and an 8 at LAM. Kagawa is an 8 at CAM and a 6 at LAM. That's the sort of concept he is talking about. The problem is, Rooney won't play there and would no doubt throw a tantrum if Moyes began playing him there. It isn't always about playing your players where they are absolutely their best. It is about playing your players so your team is at its absolute best. Whether or not you think our best chance to win is Rooney partnered with RVP up top, or Rooney or someone else playing on the left with Kagawa to his right is a matter of opinion.

We won the league last year with Rooney playing where he could best bolster the squad, granted this year RVP has had injury problem :(
 
Mad Winger said:
Most no.10s fall into one of these categories, but not all. This is one of the things that make Kagawa so unique. Unlike Mata, Silva and Özil, he simply cannot play in a different position and cut it at the highest level. There is no other top no.10 in the world right now who's level drops so significantly as Kagawa's, when played in a different position. You might consider this an argument against him starting, but really, why should it be so? Give me one logical reason for why a player can't be a specialist no.10? That's what I thought... There are none.
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There are two reasons why Chicharito doesn't force RVP unto the bench: RVP is a brilliant player. And RVP is a better allround striker. Chicha is a specialist, a goal scorer, a poacher. That's what he truly excels at. But he isn't the greatest poacher in history - which he would pretty much have to be in order to justify benching a player of RVP's caliber just to capitalize to the max on his specialty.

At the moment there is nothing which suggests that Kagawa's specialty outweighs Rooney's allround game: The latter has been our best player this season. That's a significant factor.
 
Nucks said:
People don't get it. He isn't saying Kagawa is better, at least I don't think he is. He is saying our team is STRONGER playing someone else who is better than Kagawa on the left, while playing Kagawa centrally. Overall the AVERAGE level of play between the two positions would be higher.

Let's just use Rooney and Kagawa as hypothetical examples.

Let's rate these guys on a scale of 1-10 as CAM and LAM.

Rooney is a 9 at CAM and an 8 at LAM. Kagawa is an 8 at CAM and a 6 at LAM. That's the sort of concept he is talking about. The problem is, Rooney won't play there and would no doubt throw a tantrum if Moyes began playing him there. It isn't always about playing your players where they are absolutely their best. It is about playing your players so your team is at its absolute best.
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Obviously you've just made those figures up, but you've made it look a better argument than it is IMO. Rooney isn't an 8 on the left, if we shift him over to the wing then we are losing more than the negligible amount you imply - he's a central player every day of the week, he's also been the heart of the team this season and we need him on the ball as much as possible which won't happen on the wing.

Januzaj is a 7 on the left anyway, so with Rooney as a 9 in CAM that partnership equals your hypothetical Kagawa one.
 
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