I apologize for wanting to see more fluid football.
Shinji Kagawa
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I apologize for wanting to see more fluid football.
Rather than change the entire set up of the team who has shown nothing in the past 18 months to justify it? No thanks. Even playing out left he should be able to influence a game. Certainly to at least the same degree that any of the players he's competing with, and who have managed to contribute more, although no where near enough,despite playing in the same team and arguably being inferior technically.
Right now he's in the same category as players like Cleverly, Young, Valencia etc difference being there seems to be fairly common consensus that they're players that need to be shipped on, Kagawa gets a pass because he played well for Dortmund 2 years ago.
Just like Smalling influences the game playing right back? Is he also a shit player? It is weird when you play a player out of position and he doesn't influence the game. Why not play Cleverly at right back? What about Carrick on the wing? Valencia as a striker? He should be able to do the job.
Last season:
Yep, he's been shit. Bizarre how much better he was when played in position.
We all want that.
That's your problem. Popper made a really rational post explaining that even though Kagawa was clearly a very good player it hasn't/isn't working out for him at United for a number of possible reasons. You took that to mean that he "enjoy(s) Valencia and Young dispensing endless shit crosses to nowhere." and that Popper "wanted" to see United "playing shit, stand around football" Even though he never said anything of the sort!
Its a little weird how 1 week ago everyone was pretty optimistic with him, praising him for having one of his better games, making things happen on his own and being one of our best players against Swansea, and since then, even though he hasn't played, the same shit keeps being said about him like he's had another shit game. Surely since he's generally been a bit better lately even with his sub appearances, people should be looking more optimistic with him? Especially as he's so talented and has the ability to become a key player for us? A few people (always the ones criticizing him) mention stuff like why do Valencia and Young not get treated in the same way or have fans support them as much. It's because Kagawa has bucket loads of talent and ability more then they do, and Valencia and Young have already shown all that they can do and it isn't good enough. Kagawa has shown in flashes some great play for us when we choose to up the pace, and if we as a team play quicker football more often then he will be more consistent for us and play better as a result.
It's called fecking with him, genius.
Good player, one I was sure would do very well at United although concerns about his ability to cope with the physical side of English football were always there.
There was one moment recently where he melded his cunning and speed of thought to outwit a bigger, stronger player in beating him to a ball he wasn't previously going to win where I hoped he would kick on and start imposing more of his talent on games. That is looking less likely to happen though and he continues to be brushed aside too easily since then.
I recall both Park Ji Sung and Chicharito mentioning they found that putting in some extra time on weight training helped them to cope with the league's physical element. I'm starting to wonder if Kagawa has neglected this. He often looks short of pace and strength and that leads to him having less time on the ball and less influence when he does play.
There was one moment recently where he melded his cunning and speed of thought to outwit a bigger, stronger player in beating him to a ball he wasn't previously going to win where I hoped he would kick on and start imposing more of his talent on games. That is looking less likely to happen though and he continues to be brushed aside too easily since then.
I recall both Park Ji Sung and Chicharito mentioning they found that putting in some extra time on weight training helped them to cope with the league's physical element. I'm starting to wonder if Kagawa has neglected this. He often looks short of pace and strength and that leads to him having less time on the ball and less influence when he does play.
Featured in 26 games in total last season, 17 this season so far so that's a bit of a myth.
Valencia to date -
Kagawa to date - 17 games 0 goals 0 assists
Valencia to date - 28 games 4 goals 3 assists
Young to date - 9 games 2 goals 1 assist
So again not sure what that's based on.
Maybe the reason he hasn't got any more playing time is that he's doing nothing in training. His showings on the field would seem to suggest it, and as useless as they are the stats show both Young and Valencia as contributing more.
Looks like one of those Veron/Forlan situations where a good player just doesn't work out for whatever reason.
I think this underrates Kagawa, to be honest. There are a lot of comments along these lines that make Kagawa sound like someone who can't function without a proper team, who needs the right system, etc, but it underplays what he's capable of on an individual basis. He should be doing a lot more regardless of how shit we've been.
I'm in same boat here. Obviously with nothing to back it up. I often suspect Kagawa might be one of those that thinks arriving at OT means he's made it. The reality is a fairly big step up is required to move from most clubs to cut it here.
It's no great disrespect to him. I'd say he'll have a top career. Just more than likely not here.
Again, spot on, 'we're playing shit' as some sort of excuse. Well Kagawa has been part of the team on more than enough occasions to show that he's the man to step up and stop the rot, or even put in the odd 7or8/10 performance.
I disagree. He's been very critical of himself/his performances during his time here.
I was reminiscing fondly about Diego and his golden locks the other day.
Add Berbatov to that list. Infact, the similarities between that thread and this are really quite similar.
I think Kagawa could thrive with someone like Mata in the team. At least I hope so.
I find it equally hilarious that I'm considered some kind of maniac with "bizarre" ideas, just because I've been very active in this thread. I guess the Kagawa critics can't stand being constantly faced with simple facts that discredit their hopeless attacks
These are basically my "bizarre" ideas:
1. If we take potential, top level, and general level into consideration, I think that Kagawa is a better winger(and player obviously) than Valencia, Young, Nani and Welbeck. Because of this, I think it's a no-brainer that he deserves one of the wing-positions, if he's not already played behind the striker.
2. I think that Kagawa had a good season under Fergie. Not great, but definitely better than most of our midfielders and attackers. RVP, Carrick and Rooney are the only midfielders/attackers that had a better season than Kagawa in 2012/2013. And two of them don't even play in Kagawa's position(s).
3. I think that when we play with Kagawa in the team(either behind the striker or on the wing), our style becomes more fluid. I want to see more fluid football, thus I want to see Kagawa play, seeing as he's one of the few players(the only player?) in our team who can help us do this. It's hardly a revolutionary idea, seeing as Fergie clearly wanted the same.
4. When Rooney or RVP are injured, Kagawa should be almost guaranteed the no.10 position. When both are fit, he should be placed on the left wing at the very least. This is what Fergie did consistently last season. And it worked.
5. While it's not a key point of mine, I do think that Kagawa is a better no.10 than Rooney. Not a better player, but a better offensive playmaker. If we want to play a flat 4-4-2 with two strikers: fine, Rooney is the better option. But if we want to be more fluid, then Kagawa is the way to go.
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These are basically the things I state over and over again, with a few twists and additional facts. If that's crazy or bizarre, then so be it. I guess the Caf is just retarded in this debate then
And if you think that it's my persistency that makes me crazy, then just look at this entire thread. It's clear as day that Kagawa needs a couple of defenders. Otherwise this thread is going to turn into those other player threads(God forbid). I don't want that. Not for the one creative playmaker with silky skills we have.
These are basically my "bizarre" ideas:
1. If we take potential, top level, and general level into consideration, I think that Kagawa is a better winger(and player obviously) than Valencia, Young, Nani and Welbeck. Because of this, I think it's a no-brainer that he deserves one of the wing-positions, if he's not already played behind the striker.
2. I think that Kagawa had a good season under Fergie. Not great, but definitely better than most of our midfielders and attackers. RVP, Carrick and Rooney are the only midfielders/attackers that had a better season than Kagawa in 2012/2013. And two of them don't even play in Kagawa's position(s).
3. I think that when we play with Kagawa in the team(either behind the striker or on the wing), our style becomes more fluid. I want to see more fluid football, thus I want to see Kagawa play, seeing as he's one of the few players(the only player?) in our team who can help us do this. It's hardly a revolutionary idea, seeing as Fergie clearly wanted the same.
4. When Rooney or RVP are injured, Kagawa should be almost guaranteed the no.10 position. When both are fit, he should be placed on the left wing at the very least. This is what Fergie did consistently last season. And it worked.
5. While it's not a key point of mine, I do think that Kagawa is a better no.10 than Rooney. Not a better player, but a better offensive playmaker. If we want to play a flat 4-4-2 with two strikers: fine, Rooney is the better option. But if we want to be more fluid, then Kagawa is the way to go.
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These are basically the things I state over and over again, with a few twists and additional facts. If that's crazy or bizarre, then so be it. I guess the Caf is just retarded in this debate then
And if you think that it's my persistency that makes me crazy, then just look at this entire thread. It's clear as day that Kagawa needs a couple of defenders. Otherwise this thread is going to turn into those other player threads(God forbid). I don't want that. Not for the one creative playmaker with silky skills we have.
You have a job on your hands justifying how Kagawa is a better winger than Nani by that definition.
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I find it equally hilarious that I'm considered some kind of maniac with "bizarre" ideas, just because I've been very active in this thread. I guess the Kagawa critics can't stand being constantly faced with simple facts that discredit their hopeless attacks
You're a passionate Kagawa fan MW, no doubt about that. Some of your posts are mental though and you often skewer all your posts in Kagawa's favour. You probably don't even realise that you're doing it, you're love for him is so strong.
I've stopped really paying attention to a lot of what you say in here after this post:
The amount of revisionism in this post is frightening.
You have a job on your hands justifying how Kagawa is a better winger than Nani by that definition.
Nani is incredibly inconsistent and injury prone, so that seriously pulls his potential and general level down. His top level(for United) is better than Kagawa's, but that appears extremely seldom these days. He also turns 28 this year, so being a winger that relies heavily on pace, he probably doesn't have long left.
The amount of revisionism in this post is frightening.
Please point out the mistakes in that post, would you...
I feel like this has become a shouting match going nowhere. We might as well have closed the thread after Sphaero offered what I think was/is the best summary on Kagawa's situation.
I mean what's been said in the last 2-3 pages that is any different to how some of you have felt a couple weeks ago? How can you reach a consensus on kagawa when you use selective information/POV?
I mean what's been said in the last 2-3 pages that is any different to how some of you have felt a couple weeks ago? How can you reach a consensus on kagawa when you use selective information/POV?
Firstly I've never said Kagawa is shit, I said he's clearly a very good player, you seem to enjoy putting words in people's mouths to support your arguement.
You are veering into bollocks now though. We have played plenty of players of position over the years. Of the players you mention Valencia often plays, and contributes from RB. Smalling plays at RB too, while neither are the best in the world they can put in a shit in those positions. Carrick, and Fletcher have put in shifts at CB, Rooney contributes almost more from CM than from his natural position.
Last season:
Yep, he's been shit. Bizarre how much better he was when played in position.[/quote]
Again I never said he's shit. I've said he doesn't contribute enough and is too light weight.
All that ignores the fact that he rarely plays as a true touch line hugging winger. More often than not he ends up reasonably central.
Firstly I've never said Kagawa is shit, I said he's clearly a very good player, you seem to enjoy putting words in people's mouths to support your arguement.
You are veering into bollocks now though. We have played plenty of players of position over the years. Of the players you mention Valencia often plays, and contributes from RB. Smalling plays at RB too, while neither are the best in the world they can put in a shit in those positions. Carrick, and Fletcher have put in shifts at CB, Rooney contributes almost more from CM than from his natural position. All those require a lot more adjustment than going from Central attacking a to wide left attacking - he doesn't play as a winger.
Again I never said he's shit. I've said he doesn't contribute enough and is too light weight.
All that ignores the fact that he rarely plays as a true touch line hugging winger. More often than not he ends up reasonably central.
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Most of it is opinion and when you consider it's the opinion of a mad man how could I possibly argue?
Long and short is that I agree with your all round general point. That being that Kagawa should play more than he does. That said, I do think Kagawa hasn't helped himself much when he has been given the opportunity to play. Moyes has shown with Januzaj that if you come in and grab your chance, you're rewarded with games. Kagawa just hasn't done enough.
Nani and Kagawa's general level is similar, his top level as a winger for United has been much, much, much higher. Further, Nani can do almost everything that Kagawa can, and is potentially a considerably better winger on that basis. Better athleticism, touch, shooting technique, dribbling ability, close control, etc... Potential is surely just what a player could possibly achieve and make out of his attributes, and Nani is the more complete player and talented player in this respect.
I want both of them playing more football, but there is basically nothing so far to suggest that Kagawa is a better winger than Nani.
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I think we can all agree that Kagawa's career at United has been disappointing. There are just so many polarizing opinions on why. It's funny cuz it seems like we feel equally justified in each of our opinions. I think this can lead to trouble. In football matches, there are certain aspects we miss. We cant remember the whole 90 minutes but we trust our impressions. Impressions mostly built from a mix of emotions. These impressions can lead us to have very different views on the game. At the end of the day, it's our impressions but what makes it an accurate depiction on what's actually going on?
it says a lot to me when I talk to people who watch a match more than once and they usually say the impression they had after watching a second time is much different to the first, especially when it involves their team. So for me, that speaks to how our impressions can mislead us and it seems to culminate in this thread. What you think?
If Mata signs and Rooney ends up staying, you have to feel that it's the end for Kagawa.
Shinji, Mata and Januzaj could be amazing.
In my head, at least.
In my head, at least.
Kagawa is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. So far: good enough to be in the squad, could become good enough to be a first choice, not good enough to build the team around, not good enough to displace Rooney from the centre.
His situation reminds me of Berbatov: talented but does not have what it takes to thrive as a Manchester United player.
His situation reminds me of Berbatov: talented but does not have what it takes to thrive as a Manchester United player.
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I find it equally hilarious that I'm considered some kind of maniac with "bizarre" ideas, just because I've been very active in this thread. I guess the Kagawa critics can't stand being constantly faced with simple facts that discredit their hopeless attacks
These are basically my "bizarre" ideas:
1. If we take potential, top level, and general level into consideration, I think that Kagawa is a better winger(and player obviously) than Valencia, Young, Nani and Welbeck. Because of this, I think it's a no-brainer that he deserves one of the wing-positions, if he's not already played behind the striker.[/despite all those player contribution more in terms of goals and assists and offering twice as much defensive cover?
He played 27 times, got 6 goals and 5 assists. For comparison Giggs scored one less goal and had one better assist despite playing less games, Evra also scored one less and assisted the same number as him. Welbeck scored 2 and got 6 assists. Over all I don't get why 'being no worse than any of our other midfield players means we should build a team around him.
worked? In what sense? I thought our wing play last year was as bad as it's been this year.
Can't agree with that at all, not in England at least, but it's subjective.
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These are basically the things I state over and over again, with a few twists and additional facts. If that's crazy or bizarre, then so be it. I guess the Caf is just retarded in this debate then
Now if only he could score, or even create a goal.
Personally, I think it could be good for not just him, but everybody. Mata is a step in the right direction. He's everything the likes of Valencia and Young are not. This certainly wouldn't be your typical Ferguson signing. Players like Mata, Rooney, Kagawa, Van Persie and Januzaj is where we need to be headed. I see little point in disrupting that by selling players of similar ilk to Mata unless it's absolutely necessary. Finding a way to get all of this ability into one team is surely a must for Moyes.
Don't see how those 5 could ever realistically all be on the pitch at the same time.
How long back are we going then? Last season Kagawa's general level was miles ahead of Nani on the wing. This season they've been fairly equal.
Disagree when it comes to the bolded parts. Nani is more athletic, better at dribbling, and has a better long shot and freekick. Kagawa is better at pretty much anything else imo. Better stamina, better technique, better touch, better passing(in evey aspect), better off-the-ball movement both offensively and defensively. When it comes to finishing, tackling and heading, they're about equally good.
Nani's skills are obviously more suited to the wing than Kagawa's, but that doesn't really help when he's injured all the time and inconsistent when he plays. It's been 2 and a half years since Nani was class on the wing. He turns 28 this year, so it's safe to assume that his winger days on the highest level soon will come to an end, seeing as he relies so much on his physique and is injured all the time.
That, in short, is why I think Kagawa is a better choice right now. He has more potential, offers something different, and it's only half a season since he played generally well there. I would obviously prefer him behind the striker, but when that doesn't happen, I find that he's more than good enough to earn a spot on the left wing(with Januzaj on the right).
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Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. We could get four of those five on the pitch no bother to be honest, I just meant that if we're finally acquiring the 'technical' kind of midfielders we've seemingly missed out on, I wouldn't like to go and sell one of the most technically gifted ones we already have. It's why I still have some faith in Nani, as the ability and creativity is there. I'm hoping this is the kind of player Moyes will go for, ultimately getting the best out of the great talent we've already got here.
You make it sound like he had some sort of outstanding, George Best-esque season here. Kagawa was decent/perhaps slightly above decent last year as a winger - not bad, but really not that good either. Nani was inexplicably ostricised a lot of the time, poor/average at other times, and good when Fergie did finally go with him. The difference is not exactly substantial in context.
Going back another season, Nani displayed better form at the start and at the end than Kagawa has ever done in that position, and the season before was obviously brilliant and needs no explanation. The second half of the season prior to that, again, was outstanding.
I like Kagawa, but he has not displayed the heights of technique in terms of control that Nani has in my opinion (and definitely not close control - Nani was something else at his best for this). Nani's first touch is actually one of the best I've seen, where as Kagawa's at his best is more consistent in the typically Spanish type of way of always keeping a short passing game under control. You've got to remember when Nani was on form he was pulling off stuff like that crazy touch against City for our first the day of the Rooney bicycle kick match, and that there was a good discussion to be had around about this time as to who had the better touch out of him and Berbatov. It wasn't just keeping the ball under control so much as it was what he could do with his first touch; a bit like how Rooney used to be in his second season here. Kagawa was a bit like that but less so in my opinion, and without ever having the same sort of ability that Nani had in controlling pretty much anything.
Off the ball movement in a winger sense is similar I'd say, but as for all types of passing, Nani's crossing is clearly superior. The bit I'd point out about Kagawa is his first touch passing, which was excellent for Dortmund - he always knew what to do before getting it. That's something he's lost since coming here for whatever reason (overthinking, hesistance, etc).
Again, we're just talking potential, which is basically 'if'. 'If' Nani remained injury free and came back to form, that player is better than an equivalent Kagawa on the wing, regardless of how long that would last. I can't see how anyone could think otherwise. Even if he lost a bit of pace he'd still be faster than most, and his link up play, first touch, crossing, dribbling and shooting from range are all world class on form. In no way is Nani reliant on pace like some other players, and there is enough time at 28 to squeeze as much of that talent out before any serious physical declines takes place.
This all being said, it does admittedly feel sort of odd having the discussion given how long it's been since either player was top class. Very frustrating situations with both of them - I couldn't see how Kagawa would fail, and I honestly thought that Nani would become a club legend after 2010. Nowadays it feels unlikely we'll see either at their best form for us again.
*That last bit about being a better choice right now is I suppose a different discussion. I don't know to be honest - there's not much in it, simply because both of them haven't been anywhere near their best for so long. It'd be good to see Januzaj, Kagawa and Nani behind Rooney at some point, though.
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He just isn't made for this club for whatever reason.
I still have hope for him. If our overall game gets pacier, he'll definitely have a big impact. Currently our gameplay is slow and static and unfortunately his skill set doesn't match that at all.
To shine he needs runners bombing past him. Carrick Fellaini won't do this and our wingers prefer ball to feet so one of his biggest assets (short through balls) never gets used to its full potential.
No offence to the Kagawa fan boi here but to claim he was "miles ahead" of anyone last season is simply bullshit.
I still hope the lad will settle and find his form here. I dont want him sold or anything
I still hope the lad will settle and find his form here. I dont want him sold or anything
His hope is basically that we sell Rooney and he gets a run at the AM position.
Seeing as we're in for Mata I'd imagine Moyes hasn't been to impressed with what he's seen from Shinji. And who could blame him? This season has been a write-off for Kagawa so far.
Seeing as we're in for Mata I'd imagine Moyes hasn't been to impressed with what he's seen from Shinji. And who could blame him? This season has been a write-off for Kagawa so far.
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