Shinji Kagawa

[Ole'sbodyguard]

Agreed, its of course relative to our other wide players who werent doing enough. He was quite good in this patch of form that finally came, it wasn't great.

Dont like it? Dont ignore periods of time just because it doesn't suit your argument.

What the hell are you going on about?

I am responding to posters who want him to play in the number 10 on one point saying I think Rooney and Mata are going to be first choice there and saying I don't think he fits what LVG wants from a winger on my second and also say if we sign a top class winger, he is going to be an understudy.

You have jumped in on that and said he was United's best winger for a couple of months and accused me of ignoring that time period. I think he's going to be in that position regardless of that. What does that have to do with what I am talking about? You are arguing with yourself.

Do you think he will be a starting winger for LVG next season then, even if United sign a first team quality winger such as a Sanchez or a Rues, and be a first team regular outside of that? Because that's the only real counter argument to what I am saying.

 

[sizzling sausages]

Hang on, why were we led to believe he was Bundersliga player of the season then? Also Dortmund almost won the CL without him...he couldn't have been that important.

I think some paper named him POTY but Reus got the actual award.

 

[Spoony]

I think some paper named him POTY but Reus got the actual award.

Great. Let's hope the Metro name Young player of the season...consequently kidding Real into buying him.

 

[bosnian_red]

The more I think about it, I think it'll be best for both parties if he went somewhere. Unless Van Gaal plans to use him instead of Mata or starting on the left that is. We won't have a need to rotate much next season as we'll just have the league and domestic cups to worry about, so we'll definitely need to trim down our squad. We should find a starting 11 and stick with it most of the season, that way we can get some consistency too, but that means leaving out quite a few players. That's where the Europa League could have helped, as our squad is made for having a european competition as well.

 

[mazhar13]

It's pretty obvious, now, that Kagawa is different from other attacking midfielders. He isn't quick on the ball and isn't great at keeping it under pressure. His range of passing isn't that great. He has the vision to spot passes, but his poor range lets him down (look at his failed long balls against Hull). Great attacking midfielders have a good passing range and excellent dribbling/ball control along with everything else that Kagawa has.

It's obvious that he won't do well when under pressure from the opposition. What Mata has above him is that he has a better passing range and is better at keeping the ball under pressure. Kagawa, however, shouldn't be branded as average, though. When playing to his strengths, Kagawa's a world class player who can be an excellent cog to any football team. However, he's just not good enough to be the engine of the team.

If he does move on, I won't be too disappointed as we have Mata, Nani, Welbeck, and Januzaj who can provide us with fluid, unpredictable football from the attacking midfield/wider roles. However, I won't think that Kagawa's average just because of his spell, here. His strengths are what make him a great attacking midfielder, and a team that utilises his strengths can be a great team.

 

[Mad Winger]

All your good points? Matter of opinion. They read like excuses. Poor ones at that. Kagawa has started 45 games for Utd. He's scored in 4 of them. Mata has done likewise in 13. If that isn't significantly better then I'm not sure what would be.

Questioning how objective you are isn't turning it personal. Unless you also thought you were turning it personal when you suggested that if I didn't agree with you that I had an agenda.

Since you're such a fan of stats:

Kagawa:
Games started: 45
Games come off before full time: 27(this give him much fewer minutes overall. He was often taken off even when there were worse players staying on the field)
Goals scored: 6
Assists: 10
Time played in no.10 role: Roughly 25% of the time.

Mata plays in his favored position 80-90% of the time, and gets to play game after game. Surely this gives his game a whole new dimension?

 

[NotoriousISSY]

Mata is a better player. The better player should play in his best position.

I'm sure Kagawa might score one or two more goals for us in his 'favoured position' but I'm also certain he would still be inferior to Mata. What mata has done in an unbelievably poor footballing team after a difficult 4 months with Jose AND starting out of position for us when he first joined is quite remarkable. You just know he can do something even if he's playing shite.

He's comfortably better than Kagawa and rightly starts in his 'correct position'.

 

[acnumber9]

Since you're such a fan of stats:

Kagawa:
Games started: 45
Games come off before full time: 27(this give him much fewer minutes overall. He was often taken off even when there were worse players staying on the field)
Goals scored: 6
Assists: 10
Time played in no.10 role: Roughly 25% of the time.

Mata plays in his favored position 80-90% of the time, and gets to play game after game. Surely this gives his game a whole new dimension?

Your percentage has been plucked out of thin air and you make it seem like it's impossible for a player playing wide lift with license to roam infield can't score goals. He's started over 40 games in an attacking position and has scored in 4 of them. That's shocking for a player of his ilk.

 

[Mad Winger]

Your percentage has been plucked out of thin air and you make it seem like it's impossible for a player playing wide lift with license to roam infield can't score goals. He's started over 40 games in an attacking position and has scored in 4 of them. That's shocking for a player of his ilk.

Kagawa started 6 games in the AM position last season. This season he's started 3 or 4.

10 assists and 6 goals isn't "shocking" for a player who gets inconsistent playtime and spends 75-80% out of position.

 

[acnumber9]

Kagawa started 6 games in the AM position last season. This season he's started 3 or 4.

10 assists and 6 goals isn't "shocking" for a player who gets inconsistent playtime and spends 75-80% out of position.

You're aware wide players can score goals? If not I apologise for the confusion. He's playing in an attacking position and spends most of his time in the centre regardless of where the graphic said he played.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Kagawa:
Games started: 45
Games come off before full time: 27(this give him much fewer minutes overall. He was often taken off even when there were worse players staying on the field)

The underlined stat speaks volumes.

The excuse in parentheses also speaks volumes. About you, though, not Kagawa.

 

[Ekeke]

No one can plausibly deny that Kagawa is a very solid footballer, but we have a bounty of 10s and the other two are simply better.

Does it make sense for Shinji to be a squad man behind Rooney and Mata? Probably not.

Simple as that.

Does it make sense to get rid of our best left sided option this season when we already need to get rid of Young? Probably not.

Get rid of Young and give someone else a chance to compete with Kagawa's 7/10 performances on the left

 

[ManUtd43vr]

I think it is unfair to blame him too much for that performance. Yes, it was absolutely shit. But it was him in a weak two man midfield vs a very strong and physical three man midfield. How many times did you see Fletcher or for that matter any other player helping him out by being close enough for a pass today when he was being hassled by two southampton players? It is obvious he is going to struggle when left on his own. Today's weak performance was not down to lack of intelligence, positioning or guts. It was sheer physical mismatch. But I wont excuse some of his horribly inaccurate passes today which happened more than a couple of times. He certainly could have done a lot better with them.

I think if Van Gaal comes here, Kagawa would be one of his favourite because he has the thing which Van Gaal likes the most in his players : intelligence. Nobody can deny that.

 

[Mad Winger]

You're aware wide players can score goals?

None of our wide players have scored many goals for the last 2 seasons. Not Welbeck, not Valencia, not Young, not Nani, not Giggs, not Januzaj. And that is despite being actual wide players.

Do you think Mata would score a lot of goals from the wing for us?

 

[acnumber9]

None of our wide players have scored many goals for the last 2 seasons. Not Welbeck, not Valencia, not Young, not Nani, not Giggs, not Januzaj. And that is despite being actual wide players.

Do you think Mata would score a lot of goals from the wing for us?

And they haven't been good enough either. It's also more difficult to get in the middle and score goals when you're actually playing wide. Kagawa doesn't though. He's played in a position where he's given license to come into the middle and get involved in the game in more central areas.

I think he'd score more than Kagawa. You're living in a dreamworld where scoring 6 in 13 starts isn't significantly better than 6 in 45 though so I doubt you'd agree.

 

[Adebesi]

It's pretty obvious, now, that Kagawa is different from other attacking midfielders. He isn't quick on the ball and isn't great at keeping it under pressure. His range of passing isn't that great. He has the vision to spot passes, but his poor range lets him down (look at his failed long balls against Hull). Great attacking midfielders have a good passing range and excellent dribbling/ball control along with everything else that Kagawa has.

It's obvious that he won't do well when under pressure from the opposition. What Mata has above him is that he has a better passing range and is better at keeping the ball under pressure. Kagawa, however, shouldn't be branded as average, though. When playing to his strengths, Kagawa's a world class player who can be an excellent cog to any football team. However, he's just not good enough to be the engine of the team.

If he does move on, I won't be too disappointed as we have Mata, Nani, Welbeck, and Januzaj who can provide us with fluid, unpredictable football from the attacking midfield/wider roles. However, I won't think that Kagawa's average just because of his spell, here. His strengths are what make him a great attacking midfielder, and a team that utilises his strengths can be a great team.

You rattle off a long list of Kagawa's weaknesses but then describe him as world class. Just interested in what attributes you see in him that make up for those considerable deficiencies?

 

[Ekeke]

Kagawa hasnt been great, good for a short period of form is all. Mata has been very little better overall perfomance wise but his goalscoring contribution has somewhat masked it.

 

[Mad Winger]

And they haven't been good enough either. It's also more difficult to get in the middle and score goals when you're actually playing wide. Kagawa doesn't though. He's played in a position where he's given license to come into the middle and get involved in the game in more central areas.

Sounds great in theory, but in the center stands a fat, spoiled, whiny scouser who not only occupies Kagawa's space, but he's also unwilling to make lungbusting runs down the flank whenever Kagawa is in the center. That makes a lot of difference, really. In Dortmund, Grosskreutz/Kuba and Götze would always make runs on either side of Kagawa. To top it off, Gündogan would join in on the attacks from CM. Obviously this would stretch the opponent's defense and open up for possibilities.

I think he'd score more than Kagawa. You're living in a dreamworld where scoring 6 in 13 starts isn't significantly better than 6 in 45 though so I doubt you'd agree.

Mata has also played 80-90% of the time in his favored position...

 

[saivet]

The excuses for Kagawa are quite funny. I've seen people blame the players he's playing with, as if we should ship the whole lot out and buy Dortmund so he can play well.

I've also seen someone say he gets subbed off too often which is not fair. In another thread there were people saying Lallana gets subbed off a lot because he's not that good.

Kagawa's had plenty of chances and more often than not he hasn't been very good. I rate him as a player but sometimes there gets to a point whereby you've got to admit it hasn't worked and probably won't work. It doesn't mean he's a bad player but his performances especially in comparison to what he's done in the past for Japan & Dortmund simply haven't been good enough.

 

[acnumber9]

Transfermarkt says that Kagawa has 4 asssist in the PL. The reason I mentioned Mata's setpieces, is because I expected people to bring up the goals scored stat. And they did.



You have to keep in mind that ever since Kagawa came here, he's struggled with 3 things that Mata hasn't:

1) a very lengthy injury spell
2) playing out of position for the vast majority of the time
3) spending a lot of time on the bench

In fact, Kagawa has never been given the same run of games as Mata has for us. What's even worse, is that Mata already has had more minutes in the no.10 role than Kagawa has. Or they're around the same number of minutes.

But even if you completely ignore these more than reasonable variables, you have to realize that Mata's greatest strength, is his effectivity. He's like a striker in the way he takes his chances for assists and goals. His overall play besides this, is not better than Silva, Özil and even Kagawa. What makes Mata unique, is his setpieces and effectivity. That's why I actually expect him to have significantly more goals/assists than Kagawa. But he really hasn't, if you take the variables above into consideration.



This is word against word, but I still think that Dortmund is better than City, Liverpool and Chelsea.

Kagawa played 4 games combined against Bayern, and was generally brilliant. He's also played great games for Japan in games where they were the underdog(vs Italy, for instance).

Sounds great in theory, but in the center stands a fat, spoiled, whiny scouser who not only occupies Kagawa's space, but he's also unwilling to make lungbusting runs down the flank whenever Kagawa is in the center. That makes a lot of difference, really. In Dortmund, Grosskreutz/Kuba and Götze would always make runs on either side of Kagawa. To top it off, Gündogan would join in on the attacks from CM. Obviously this would stretch the opponent's defense and open up for possibilities.



Mata has also played 80-90% of the time in his favored position...

Mata clearly has significantly better output regardless of what arbitrary variables you throw in. That's why he plays in his best position more often than Kagawa.

 

[Mad Winger]

Mata clearly has significantly better output regardless of what arbitrary variables you throw in.

Fair enough, but that's not my question.

- Do you think Mata would have scored many goals from the wing for us this season or last?
- Do you not think that Kagawa would have played significantly better if he was allowed to play consistently and in his favored position?

Mata has to play in his favored position, even when he sucks. He's been too expensive not to. But his overall level since he joined us hasn't been much better than Kagawa's. He's only been slightly better. And that is despite playing consistently in his favored position.

My point is this:
1. Neither Kagawa nor Mata has been at their best for us. And that is because our football sucks. Neither of them are to blame for this. Not Mata, not Kagawa.
2. Kagawa would definitely have delivered on the same level as Mata has done so far, if he was given the same benefits.

 

[Sandikan]

we were already struggling to fit Kagawa in before buying Mata.

With Mata, Rooney and VP already causing a headache of how to best fit them in, there is no room for Kagawa.

 

[acnumber9]

Fair enough, but that's not my question.

- Do you think Mata would have scored many goals from the wing for us this season or last?
- Do you not think that Kagawa would have played significantly better if he was allowed to play consistently and in his favored position?

Mata has to play in his favored position, even when he sucks. He's been too expensive not to. But his overall level since he joined us hasn't been much better than Kagawa's. He's only been slightly better. And that is despite playing consistently in his favored position.

My point is this:
1. Neither Kagawa nor Mata has been at their best for us. And that is because our football sucks. Neither of them are to blame for this. Not Mata, not Kagawa.
2. Kagawa would definitely have delivered on the same level as Mata has done so far, if he was given the same benefits.

He'd have scored more than zero. He's a better player so that should be obvious.

Kagawa most certainly would not 'definitely' deliver on the same level as Mata. If that was the case we'd have had no reason to sign Mata.

 

[Gannicus]

Does it make sense to get rid of our best left sided option this season when we already need to get rid of Young? Probably not.

Get rid of Young and give someone else a chance to compete with Kagawa's 7/10 performances on the left

Shinji is a good soldier and will play on the left, but that's not who he is. Better to acquire a natural left sided mid, or even commit to Januzaj on the left, than to stick with a round peg in a square hole.

I'm with everyone else here who admires and respects Shinji, but it really doesn't make sense to play him out of position. But as soon as we sell him, you know what will happen: Wayne and Juan will no go down with injury and we'll be furious we sold Shinji.

 

[Mad Winger]

He'd have scored more than zero

Oh so now we're suddenly only focusing on this season? You like to jump back and forth don't you?

If that was the case we'd have had no reason to sign Mata.

Mata was a weird signature. I'd rather sign 2 CMs, 2 defenders and a couple of wingers before signing yet another AM, but then again we were panicking. It was mid-season, top 4 was still not completely out of the question, and Mata was a guarantee for goals and assists, even though we didn't really need another AM. But to be honest, I think Moyes and the rest of the staff expected more from Mata. For 37.5 million, I most certainly did.

It's also clear as day that Moyes was still very much in charge back then. And Moyes had, unlike Fergie, very little faith in Kagawa. He even let Welbeck and Januzaj play ahead of him. That says it all really. Fergie would never have done that.

 

[Buchan]

I rate Kagawa as a player but I've lost a lot of time for him lately, particularly after the stories emerged of his unprofessional behaviour. I'd heard rumblings around the town about it (a friend met him out one night and subsequently kept in contact with him for a few weeks afterward and she told me a few things) so his malaise in recent games is no great surprise.

 

[mazhar13]

You rattle off a long list of Kagawa's weaknesses but then describe him as world class. Just interested in what attributes you see in him that make up for those considerable deficiencies?

As I said, his strengths are what make him world class. His movement, positioning, vision, quick short passing, and overall intelligence are a level above many of the great attacking midfielders of this time. It's what made him so good at Dortmund. Plus, his finishing is very good for an attacking midfielder, so much so that he could have been classed as a deep-lying forward more so than an attacking midfielder if he didn't have any horizontal movement in his game.

The problem with Kagawa is that he doesn't have the attributes to make him the engine of the team i.e. good range of passing and the ability to keep the ball in tight spaces. The likes of Silva, Mata, Ozil, Eriksen, Gotze, etc., are all quick on the ball, have a good range of passing, and are able to keep the ball in tight spaces. Kagawa doesn't have these, and it's why he can't be a part of the engine/core of the team.

In summary, he's a world class player when things are set up well for him. However, he can't be used to set up a great team. He doesn't have the qualities that will make him an individual world class player, but he will play like a world class player if the team is set up well for him. It's why I and many don't mind him leaving. He won't be a part of our core, and we already have players to replace him in terms of being the cog in the team.

 

[Gannicus]

He'd have scored more than zero. He's a better player so that should be obvious.

Kagawa most certainly would not 'definitely' deliver on the same level as Mata. If that was the case we'd have had no reason to sign Mata.

Agreed. The point is so obvious it's a wonder there's even a question about it.

Sometime it just doesn't work out at United for some great footballers. Forlan, Veron and Berbatov come to mind.

 

[acnumber9]

Oh so now we're suddenly only focusing on this season? You like to jump back and forth don't you?



Mata was a weird signature. I'd rather sign 2 CMs, 2 defenders and a couple of wingers before signing yet another AM, but then again we were panicking. It was mid-season, top 4 was still not completely out of the question, and Mata was a guarantee for goals and assists, even though we didn't really need another AM. But to be honest, I think Moyes and the rest of the staff expected more from Mata. For 37.5 million, I most certainly did.

It's also clear as day that Moyes was still very much in charge back then. And Moyes had, unlike Fergie, very little faith in Kagawa. He even let Welbeck and Januzaj play ahead of him. That says it all really. Fergie would never have done that.

Okay, more than 6 in 45. Happier?

 

[Gannicus]

I rate Kagawa as a player but I've lost a lot of time for him lately, particularly after the stories emerged of his unprofessional behaviour. I'd heard rumblings around the town about it (a friend met him out one night and subsequently kept in contact with him for a few weeks afterward and she told me a few things) so his malaise in recent games is no great surprise.

You've piqued our interest. What are some of these "things"?

 

[Gambit]

Yes, I too demand knowledge of these "things".

 

[saivet]

I rate Kagawa as a player but I've lost a lot of time for him lately, particularly after the stories emerged of his unprofessional behaviour. I'd heard rumblings around the town about it (a friend met him out one night and subsequently kept in contact with him for a few weeks afterward and she told me a few things) so his malaise in recent games is no great surprise.

Care to share?

 

[acnumber9]

Agreed. The point is so obvious it's a wonder there's even a question about it.

Sometime it just doesn't work out at United for some great footballers. Forlan, Veron and Berbatov come to mind.

And I'd say two of those 3 were better than Kagawa has been.

 

[kps88]

And I'd say two of those 3 were better than Kagawa has been.

There's really no point in arguing with someone who thinks Kagawa and Mata are currently at the same level. There's always an excuse for his countless bad performances. Only after we buy the whole of Dortmund's squad and appoint Klopp as manager can we start judging poor old Shinji.

 

[Buchan]

You've piqued our interest. What are some of these "things"?

Care to share?

Nothing out of the ordinary in footballer circles to be honest. The usual boozing and fornicating stories. Coupled with the stories of Kagawa turning up late for club duties and generally not being arsed about it, it paints a very different picture from the one we all thought he portrayed.

Maybe I'm just being harsh, but I'm still pissed off with the attitudes of some of our players this season. They've been a disgrace to the shirt.

 

[Mad Winger]

Okay, more than 6 in 45. Happier?

How nice of you to able to guarantee that

FYI, Mata had 1 goal in 13 starts for Chelsea this season. That was under one of the best coaches in the game, for a team that's currently significantly better than United. If he kept this up, then he'd be on fewer goals and assists than Kagawa.

This goes to show what happens when a player no longer is guaranteed a spot in the starting XI and often has to play out of position. It has happened to Mata, and it is happening to Kagawa right now.

 

[Gannicus]

And I'd say two of those 3 were better than Kagawa has been.

I can't argue with that although I'm definitely not in the Kagawa is crap club. For me the issue with him is that he doesn't have a single exceptional asset. He's competent in all areas of his game but he doesn't have the power or speed required of a footballer in the English prem who's highly competent but not exceptional. Scholes and Silva and Mata didn't/don't have power or speed, but they were (are) exceptional with the ball. Zola was another. Shinji is nowhere near the class of those three.

 

[ManUArfa]

I'm not defending Kagawa's lack of goals and assists this season but it's a strange phenomenon that all of our attacking wide players of the last two seasons have given us poor returns when, in the past, we've scored freely from across the whole team. Welbeck had similar problems from the left last season and then there's Valencia, Young and Nani. Even Januzaj hasn't really gone on to provide more after his early promise.

 

[Rossa]

I like Kagawa, a lot, but that was one shit performance. I thought that perhaps he could be schooled into a very good CM, but that looks far from the case currently. His touch was atrocious and he didn't link-up well at all. Awful display. Unfortunately, I fear for his future at United.

 

[acnumber9]

How nice of you to able to guarantee that

FYI, Mata had 1 goal in 13 starts for Chelsea this season. That was under one of the best coaches in the game, for a team that's currently significantly better than United. If he kept this up, then he'd be on fewer goals and assists than Kagawa.

This goes to show what happens when a player no longer is guaranteed a spot in the starting XI and often has to play out of position. It has happened to Mata, and it is happening to Kagawa right now.

It was you who told Us that Kagawa would definitely do as well as Mata with the same opportunities. You seem to have no self awareness whatsoever.

How do you get fewer goals than 0? Are you using stats from this season for one and last season for another?