Shinji Kagawa

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Ash_G said:
No he hasn't played with scholes, think I said that in my first post not sure. But yeah think he's only played 1 and he didn't look comfortable there until we changed things and stopped making clev and kagawa so fixed in their tucked in wide positions. But I think the point was that its not just then, I mean he's played in other games where it was him carrick and clev in the middle and there were issues. Like I said I thinks it's more the set up of the team and how we've tried to use him.
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IIRC, that one game was against S'ton where he was pretty much out muscled. It was after that he came out and said that he needs to bulk up for this league as it is far more physical than anything he has ever encountered.

I would agree with one point that Pogue made above, that we won't see the best of him until next year. Hopefully, by then the following things would have happened:

(1) He has bulked up and gained more physical strength.
(2) He gets more accustomed to the league.
(3) Our intent on using the middle and not totally depending on the wings for all our attacks.
(4) A fitter Fletcher or a new defensive midfielder who could provide more tenacity and cover for the defense as playing Ando or Clevers with Kagawa is inevitably going to leave more gaps in the middle. Basically, a more mobile midfield.
 
I honestly don't think it particularly matters 'where' his and Rooney's starting positions are, and I think the focus on that by people in this thread is a little mistaken. Players like Kagawa and Rooney like to be on the ball and are intelligent enough to read the movement of their partners and make the correct runs to find space. Defensively, we can just ask him and Rooney to mark whatever zone they happen to be in at the time - this could be pressuring through the middle, or tracking runners on the left (which is where I expect Kagawa's starting position would be).

With him in the side, we can keep better possession and he can definitely offer us something different going forward. Stick them all in the bloody team and let the opposition worry about how to deal with them.
 
Minkaro said:
Sure I saw something about them maybe using it at the next one as well? That bloke on BBC.co.uk who does the South American football blog.

IIRC, the front six of the "chimney" that he had was:

Sandro - Romulo
Hulk - ???
Oscar - Kaka
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He may well have said it but that looks nothing like how they play at the moment.
 
Amar__ said:
I don't think they ever played exactly like that.
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What are you on about 'exactly like that'? They played that formation that Hernandez posted. There are more than these three.

Famous 1984 world cup team
--Eder--Serginho--
--Zico--Socrates--
--Falcao-Cerezo--

1994
--Romario--Bebeto-
--Zinho--Mazinho-
--Dunga--Silva--

1998
--Ronaldo--Bebeto--
--Rivaldo--Leonardo-
--Dunga--Sampaio
 
Forevergiggs said:
IIRC, that one game was against S'ton where he was pretty much out muscled. It was after that he came out and said that he needs to bulk up for this league as it is far more physical than anything he has ever encountered.

I would agree with one point that Pogue made above, that we won't see the best of him until next year. Hopefully, by then the following things would have happened:

(1) He has bulked up and gained more physical strength.
(2) He gets more accustomed to the league.
(3) Our intent on using the middle and not totally depending on the wings for all our attacks.
(4) A fitter Fletcher or a new defensive midfielder who could provide more tenacity and cover for the defense as playing Ando or Clevers with Kagawa is inevitably going to leave more gaps in the middle. Basically, a more mobile midfield.
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Hopefully he will adapt to the league more with time, I agree with that but I think in general unless we change our approach we're not really gonna see the best out of him. It seems to me like the diamond is more something born out of fergie needing to give lots of players time an wingers being injured/out if form. It doesn't seem to be something he was genuinely considering at the start of the season, so I'm not sure on what his intentions were to play more narrow.

I hope we adapt somewhat, because trying to play with 2 proper wingers just won't allow kagawa to play to his best regardless or settling in time imo. As a traditional winger he doesn't look comfortable and it doesn't showcase his best talents and in a central role having the two wingers so far away makes it tough to get the interplay you would want. Lots of people seem to blame carrick/scholes for this but in reality it had to come from the wingers. Oscar isn't linking up with mikel he's linking up with mata and hazard and I think that's his problem because we leave so much space between where he'd like to play and where everyone is playing.

That's why I think the 433 is the best way forward. It allows us to retain some aspects of our wing play whilst giving the option to attack centrally. We've seen a shift to move Rooney slightly deeper but we haven't followed that up yet with trying to alter the way the wingers play, I hope we do but I don't think fergie is looking to make it a focus of our team.
 
Theon said:
What are you on about 'exactly like that'? They played that formation that Hernandez posted. There are more than these three.

Famous 1984 world cup team
--Eder--Serginho--
--Zico--Socrates--
--Falcao-Cerezo--

1994
--Romario--Bebeto-
--Zinho--Mazinho-
--Dunga--Silva--

1998
--Ronaldo--Bebeto--
--Rivaldo--Leonardo-
--Dunga--Sampaio
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Never realised they played like that, my fault. I still think it would be total fail for us to play like that though.
 
@Ash_G
Though we hardly play with two proper wingers. Neither Nani nor g are traditional wingers and do not hug the by-lines. There are always cutting inside and like to attack more through central areas. Teams seem to have identified that more often than not our attack is going to come from the right hand side and have started double teaming Valencia, making it harder for him to put in crosses. Also, if can handle that threat they can carve us at will like a thanks giving Turkey as our midfield is too slow to cover on the counter.

We need to erase some of this predictably from our attacks. That is where Kagawa can be very handy as someone who is going to provide a threat through the middle. Also, a more mobile midfield should allow us to get back sooner on the counter than we have been off late. No everyone can be Rooney but Kagawa also needs to learn to track back, an aspect of his game which imo is lacking.
 
Cold_Boy said:
Well of course, you genius.

What I am saying is it would be awesome if he comes back soon but he haven't missed him.

Its only a good thing.
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Yeah, I know. :p

It's always a good sign when a player of Kagawa's calibre is not sorely missed. But would love to have him back soon.
 
Theon said:
What are you on about 'exactly like that'? They played that formation that Hernandez posted. There are more than these three.

Famous 1984 world cup team
--Eder--Serginho--
--Zico--Socrates--
--Falcao-Cerezo--

1994
--Romario--Bebeto-
--Zinho--Mazinho-
--Dunga--Silva--

1998
--Ronaldo--Bebeto--
--Rivaldo--Leonardo-
--Dunga--Sampaio
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Well, in 1984, you had probably two of the best deep lying midfielders ever in Falcão and Cerezo (especially Falcão) behind two brilliant playmakers in Zico and Socrates. They played everywhere, and made the "Quadrado Mágico" (Magic Square) one of the finest moments in Brazilian football history. We may have the playmakers, but not the deeplying midfielders that's for sure (Scholes the exception of course, but not at his current age).

In 94 you had two strong and very defensive players, who carried the piano for Bebeto and Romario to shine, in Dunga and Mauro Silva, while Mazinho also put a very consistent defensive shift, while Raí and then Zinho had more freedom, but also minding defensive responsibilities. One the most pragmatic Brazilian teams to this day, and worked a lot due to the attacking pair that even with little creativity made miracles, Bebeto and Romario were almost sexual togheter.

In 98, again a strong pair in midfield who couldn't be outmuscled and had a lot of bite in Dunga and Cesar Sampaio. Leonardo got to be playing more to the side, as a former LB, and Bebeto, Ronaldo and Rivaldo made a great trio.

The thing is, no pair we throw at CM will shadow what they had, talent wise (in 84) or muscle and defensive wise (as 94 and 98). Even we are able to play this formation, defense would have poor cover, and so would the wings. If you think we are leaking goals now, wait until we play such a vertical game. IMO, wouldn't work we the CM we have.
 
Forevergiggs said:
@Ash_G
Though we hardly play with two proper wingers. Neither Nani nor g are traditional wingers and do not hug the by-lines. There are always cutting inside and like to attack more through central areas. Teams seem to have identified that more often than not our attack is going to come from the right hand side and have started double teaming Valencia, making it harder for him to put in crosses. Also, if can handle that threat they can carve us at will like a thanks giving Turkey as our midfield is too slow to cover on the counter.

We need to erase some of this predictably from our attacks. That is where Kagawa can be very handy as someone who is going to provide a threat through the middle. Also, a more mobile midfield should allow us to get back sooner on the counter than we have been off late. No everyone can be Rooney but Kagawa also needs to learn to track back, an aspect of his game which imo is lacking.
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Nani isn't but Valencia who is you'd think first choice is and young although he does tend to cut inside he doesn't really come deep inside with the ball or really look o swap positions too much. Either way with the way we set up whoever is on their wing usually is asked to stay there and the focus is to keep them wide, there are occasions where they'll come inside or swap positions but I wouldn't say it's a main focus of our attack, certainly not anywhere near to the extent of say Chelsea.

Now I don't think we have to set up like Chelsea but I think we do need to adapt a bit if we want to get the best out of the players we have such as kagawa, and for me the likes of clev, Rooney, rvp and nani would thrive in a more fluid formation.

I think in general we agree though.
 
Danillaco said:
Well, in 1984, you had probably two of the best deep lying midfielders ever in Falcão and Cerezo (especially Falcão) behind two brilliant playmakers in Zico and Socrates. They played everywhere, and made the "Quadrado Mágico" (Magic Square) one of the finest moments in Brazilian football history. We may have the playmakers, but not the deeplying midfielders that's for sure (Scholes the exception of course, but not at his current age).

In 94 you had two strong and very defensive players, who carried the piano for Bebeto and Romario to shine, in Dunga and Mauro Silva, while Mazinho also put a very consistent defensive shift, while Raí and then Zinho had more freedom, but also minding defensive responsibilities. One the most pragmatic Brazilian teams to this day, and worked a lot due to the attacking pair that even with little creativity made miracles, Bebeto and Romario were almost sexual togheter.

In 98, again a strong pair in midfield who couldn't be outmuscled and had a lot of bite in Dunga and Cesar Sampaio. Leonardo got to be playing more to the side, as a former LB, and Bebeto, Ronaldo and Rivaldo made a great trio.

The thing is, no pair we throw at CM will shadow what they had, talent wise (in 84) or muscle and defensive wise (as 94 and 98). Even we are able to play this formation, defense would have poor cover, and so would the wings. If you think we are leaking goals now, wait until we play such a vertical game. IMO, wouldn't work we the CM we have.
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Yeah I don't know why you're telling me this, I don't disagree with any of it and never said United should use this formation.

I was just pointing out to Amar that many great teams have, because he didn't think so.
 
I never really got why we became so obsessed with wingers again anyway. It's not like Ronaldo was a touchline hugger who always whipped in a cross. We just seemed to re-embrace it around 2010 and suddenly decided we were all about the strict wing play.

That's how I remember it anyway..

Anyway, I'd happily stick Kagawa on the left, he'll be an important cog in creating unpredictability.
 
Theon said:
Yeah I don't know why you're telling me this, I don't disagree with any of it and never said United should use this formation.

I was just pointing out to Amar that many great teams have, because he didn't think so.
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Yeah, was just to try to point that we don't have the players to pull a 4222, even if great teams did it in the past, mostly because someone said we could play it.

Cheers!
 
Forevergiggs said:
That looks like a recipe for disaster to me. Rooney will have to constantly drop back in order to fill the holes left by Cleverley and Anderson. Plus, the formation has no width and protection for the full backs. Too attacking and will never work.
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Amar__ said:
What the feck is that? :lol:

Some of the formations peope put here wouldn't even work on video games.
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I know. I never once said it would be a masterstroke to be fair - I just said that I'm quite fond of the formation. City used is pretty well last season with Barry-Toure behind Silva-Nasri, with Tevez-Aguero up front. If push comes to shove, and we're chasing the game, I wouldn't be too suprised to see something similar. Of course, Carrick could be in there instead of Cleverley, and Scholes instead of Anderson if someone is still unhappy about it.
 
Danillaco said:
Yeah, was just to try to point that we don't have the players to pull a 4222, even if great teams did it in the past, mostly because someone said we could play it.
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Fair do's mate, it was a good post btw!
 
Surprised nobody has asked Fergie about him during one of his pressers. This morning, for example.
 
Hes not really injured hes been in the gym for a month and will come back fitter and stronger just like Rooney did
 
Sir Alex confirms Phil Jones will start tomorrow's game against Galatasaray. Shinji Kagawa is still about "four weeks away" from returning.

FFS!
 
David McDonnell: Fergie says Kagawa out for 6 to 7 weeks, not four as originally expected. Fergie: "His progress has been slow."

Great.
 
Maciek said:
David McDonnell: Fergie says Kagawa out for 6 to 7 weeks, not four as originally expected. Fergie: "His progress has been slow."

Great.
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Nick Coppack on the official site is saying "7 to 8 weeks". That's from the date of his original injury though, so another four weeks to go like KM said.
 
Ah right, well it's shit anyway 'cos our wingers are currently as useful as a chocolate teapot so we could've done with his return and going back to the diamond...
 
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