Faded a bit towards the end of hte game but he had quite a few moments of brilliance. Always a joy watching him play.
Shinji Kagawa
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Unlike when he plays for us and we force him to stay tight to the touchline, run at the right back and whip crosses in.
Wait...
Not saying it's different to what he's been doing when playing for us. And I think he's had quite a good first season with us, but I still think the best way to utilize his full potential would be playing him in a central role. In some matches maybe it's useful to play someone like that on the wing, but most of the time under Sir Alex we have preferred out and out wingers who can beat a man, get down to the touchline and put a cross in, and I would like that to continue under Moyes, because I think it's a big part of the United identity.
To be fair, Japan has a totally different style. They also use Nagatomo as a fullback, who's effectively a winger.
Yup Evra barely ever gets forward for us.
Wait, damn, I've done it again!
Wait, damn, I've done it again!
Yeah, because that's totally the same
Japan plays a narrow 4-2-3-1 formation, with extremely offensive fullbacks and collective Spain-like defending. It's therefore no wonder Kagawa that thrives more as a "winger" for Japan then. I'm not saying he's been bad for United, because he obviously hasn't, but there's no question about where he should play.
What does it matter what the right winger is doing? Just because Valencia is hogging the touchline, it doesn't make an iota of difference to the left winger. I wouldn't even call it a left winger. For the most part United play with a right winger and a left sided attacking mid. We haven't had a true left winger since young Giggs.
When Kagawa plays on the left for us he does virtually exactly the same as he does when he plays on the left for Japan. I know it goes against the burning desire that Kagawa fan boys have that we need to play him solely in AM in order to get the best out of him, but it's worth repeating.
When Kagawa plays on the left for us he does virtually exactly the same as he does when he plays on the left for Japan. I know it goes against the burning desire that Kagawa fan boys have that we need to play him solely in AM in order to get the best out of him, but it's worth repeating.
So true
I have watched almost every single Japan game from start to finish for 3 years now, and I've watched pretty much every Kagawa minute for us.
Based on this I have to say that, no, Kagawa does in fact not play exactly the same for us. He likes to drift in yes, but there's a lot less quick interplay going on(because of the difference in style), and he's also more often out wide(with Evra), compared to when he plays for Japan.
But what do I know? I'm just a silly fanboy after all...
It may appear Kagawa playing on the left for Japan is the same as when he plays on the left for Utd, but I think there is a subtle difference.
For Japan, even when he starts out wide, I feel there is much more space in teh central areas for him to occupy and run into, whereas at Utd that space is usually taken up by RvP, Rooney, Chicha etc. Basically there is less space in the central areas and he is more responsible for keeping width when he plays wide for Utd.
Whereas for Japan Honda would often drop out wide left and there was a lot more fluidity and inter-play in the build up.
Anyone who can't see this is actually blind.
For Japan, even when he starts out wide, I feel there is much more space in teh central areas for him to occupy and run into, whereas at Utd that space is usually taken up by RvP, Rooney, Chicha etc. Basically there is less space in the central areas and he is more responsible for keeping width when he plays wide for Utd.
Whereas for Japan Honda would often drop out wide left and there was a lot more fluidity and inter-play in the build up.
Anyone who can't see this is actually blind.
Thank you!
Whenever I watch Japan play, it takes me several minutes before I know exactly who plays where. When I watch United, I know almost immediately if Kagawa is playing behind the striker or not.
It's a very similar role. The lot less interplay is down to Kagawa being new to the team and in any case that has nothing to do with the position he's being played in and more to the players that surround him. He probably does spend a lot more time out wide but most of that would be in the defensive third which is not all that surprising as I'd imagine he has more defensive duties for us than than Japan. Going forwards most of his passes received are in central areas and not out wide.
While the players do matter, I still don't think this is accurate. If we changed our style to the Japanese one(which I'm in no way suggesting that we should), then I think Kagawa would play more like he does for Japan. It has nothing to do with him being "new" to the team.
No, I'm also thinking about the opponent's half.
No, he has just as much defensive duties for Japan(if not more?).
This is a very arguable statement, but even if you are correct, one could still argue that he doesn't receive enough passes in central areas.
So with Moyes arrival, and his tendencies to play very similar to the Japanese style - how do you think Kagawa would do in such a position?
I have to admit that I haven't seen too much of Everton over the years, but I wasn't aware that they played like Japan? If that truly is the case, then I think that Kagawa would do better on the left wing next season.
That being said, I still think that Kagawa is best behind the striker, no matter what style or formation we use.
What exactly is the Japanese style that you refer to?? The likes of Rooney and RVP are very good at at the quick one touch passing, so is Welbeck and Evra is pretty much a winger in most of our games anyway.
And you would know that how? Nothing in the little I have seen of Japan play indicates that. Playing wide left for United will mean him having to track back and help out his full back.
I don't get it. When we go forward Kagawa is barely seen in the wide areas. He is well tucked in and keeps on drifting further and it would appear that he has been given the freedom by the management to do so. I have seen people on this thread blaming others for not passing him the ball which is a big steaming pile of shite.
Since you like Kagawa stats, whoscored have rated him higher when he's started wide compared to him starting in the middle
The likes of RvP and Rooney tend to stay central though. They occupy the space that Kagawa wants to move into. The Japanese style is a fluid interchanging front 4. You only need to watch one game to see there is a vast difference between their style and Utd's.
I agree Kagawa doesn't stay out wide that much even when he plays out wide for Utd. Difference is at Utd there is less space in the centre he can run into because of RvP Rooney etc. (repeating myself again.
I'm anxious to know where Kagawa will play. That is the one question I would ask Moyes if I had the chance to speak to him.
I have a feeling that Rooney will stay and play behind v.Persie, leaving Kagawa to play wide left. I'd prefer to see Kagawa behind the striker though.
I have a feeling that Rooney will stay and play behind v.Persie, leaving Kagawa to play wide left. I'd prefer to see Kagawa behind the striker though.
And United's isn't? Rooney is pretty much everywhere on the pitch and RVP constantly drops deep or drifts off into wide areas. The only static player in the setup is Valencia who provides us with the width.
Your're last point is just an excuse. There's plenty of space and he occupies that said spaces a lot of the time at United.
It's different though. Utd have a very systematic way of playing and most of the attacks involve crossing it into the box. With Japan they will play more centrally and look for the quick one twos and the interplay.
Did you watch the Japan game vs. Australia today? Maybe you should watch a Japan game and see for yourself because it's clear to see.
There isn't plenty of space in the centre at Utd - aside from the wide player all the other players are attacking the ball coming in from the cross.
Japan is basically a more attacking minded and sloppy version of Spain, without the stability in central midfield. They like to attack down the center and defend as a unit every time the ball is lost. All the attacking midfielders (4-2-3-1 formation) are extremely interchangeable, making it very hard to see where their actual position is. It's very different from the way we play in my opinion.
Like I said: I've watched almost every Japan game for the last 3 years(in other words: all of Kagawa's games for Japan). He seems to drop deep into defense just as often(if not more) whenever I see him play for Japan. That is because they defend as a unit, rather than care about position. Today he might not have done so, but that's because Japan was superior in terms of play.
Still not nearly as much as he does for Japan. Period.
I'm not surprised as all, seeing as he almost only started behind the striker in the beginning, when he was still getting adjusted to the PL. In the second half of the season, he often started out wide and then ended up playing behind the striker(his hatrick against Norwhich + the important assist against an opponent I don't remember right now). His best moments have definitely been behind the striker.
This is also very similar to how Moyes plays, except for him utilizing more strict defensive roles. Do you think Moyes will consider Kagawa to be a winger in this formation or do you think he will prefer using Nani/Zaha as wingers and Kagawa more central in the pitch?
Moyes prefers a midfielder rather than a second striker which talks against Rooney even if he stays.
It's hard to say. A strict defensive role is not beneficial for Kagawa, though.
But if Moyes likes to play with an AM rather than a second striker, then I'd say that increases Kagawa's chances of palying more centrally.
So how is it very different? Only Valencia is limited to a particular position in our squad and perhaps Hernandez. All the rest are completely at ease interchanging positions.
Japan will be superior in terms of play in 90-95% of the games they play. The only teams that Japan have played in the last 3 years that have been clearly better than them are France and Brazil. Kagawa is one of their best players and has less defensive duties than when compared to United where he hasn't reached that stage (not yet anyway).
The way United has defended under Ferguson is not comparable to the higher pressing that the majority of sides around Europe uses. As a winger for United you are basically not far from your own corner flag when the counter finally starts, whereas other teams defend much further up the pitch.
So it is easy to mistake the "defensive responsibility" to be higher for all United players, when it is in fact a difference in strategy.
So it is easy to mistake the "defensive responsibility" to be higher for all United players, when it is in fact a difference in strategy.
I suggest you read wonnie's posts. If you can't see the obvious differences between Japan and United, then you're blind.
From manutd.com
Neville rates Kagawa
Gary Neville is expecting bigger things from Shinji Kagawa next season but believes the Japanese star will have no fixed position in the United team.
Shinji enjoyed a promising first campaign at Old Trafford, in which he featured both in an attacking central midfield role and on the left wing for the champions.
Some observers feel Kagawa will eventually establish himself behind a main striker, a position in which he was so effective for his former club Borussia Dortmund.
But Reds legend Neville, who is now a club ambassador and TV pundit, reckons incoming manager David Moyes will continue to deploy the midfielder in different areas.
The ex-captain told ManUtd.jp: “It was a stop-start season because he had some injuries and hasn’t settled into a definite position yet, which is something he is going to have to work out in the next 12 months.
“His best position is in a central role because that’s where he played for Dortmund, and he will feel he can influence the game the most there.
“But at times, earlier on in the season when he was off the front, he was a little bit lost. I preferred him on the left-hand side so he could watch the game from a different position.
“You can get the best out of players like Shinji by playing them in different positions. In Europe, maybe he will play off the front and in the Premier League on the left, but I don’t think he will be fixed in one position."
Neville believes Shinji offers something different to the United team and highlighted the numerous assets he feels will come to the fore in 2013/14.
"He will be better next season," Neville added. "Towards the end of this season he showed glimpses of what he could do, particularly in the Norwich game and at West Ham, which I think was his best match.
"He is an intelligent player with good energy, he can spot a run and his own runs are excellent, he is tidy on the ball, he can get out of tight situations and I think we will see more of a goalscoring influence and a final-third impact next season.
"That’s what he will want from himself, but I think the best is yet to come. That is the overriding thing for Shinji Kagawa."
Neville rates Kagawa
Gary Neville is expecting bigger things from Shinji Kagawa next season but believes the Japanese star will have no fixed position in the United team.
Shinji enjoyed a promising first campaign at Old Trafford, in which he featured both in an attacking central midfield role and on the left wing for the champions.
Some observers feel Kagawa will eventually establish himself behind a main striker, a position in which he was so effective for his former club Borussia Dortmund.
But Reds legend Neville, who is now a club ambassador and TV pundit, reckons incoming manager David Moyes will continue to deploy the midfielder in different areas.
The ex-captain told ManUtd.jp: “It was a stop-start season because he had some injuries and hasn’t settled into a definite position yet, which is something he is going to have to work out in the next 12 months.
“His best position is in a central role because that’s where he played for Dortmund, and he will feel he can influence the game the most there.
“But at times, earlier on in the season when he was off the front, he was a little bit lost. I preferred him on the left-hand side so he could watch the game from a different position.
“You can get the best out of players like Shinji by playing them in different positions. In Europe, maybe he will play off the front and in the Premier League on the left, but I don’t think he will be fixed in one position."
Neville believes Shinji offers something different to the United team and highlighted the numerous assets he feels will come to the fore in 2013/14.
"He will be better next season," Neville added. "Towards the end of this season he showed glimpses of what he could do, particularly in the Norwich game and at West Ham, which I think was his best match.
"He is an intelligent player with good energy, he can spot a run and his own runs are excellent, he is tidy on the ball, he can get out of tight situations and I think we will see more of a goalscoring influence and a final-third impact next season.
"That’s what he will want from himself, but I think the best is yet to come. That is the overriding thing for Shinji Kagawa."
What's with the code instead of quotes? Nerd!
Good man, Gary!
It was exactly 1 year ago today we agreed his transfer.
Happy Kagaversary.
the future!!! Shinji will be our best player next season... ive said that before, but i repeate it!!!
Playing on the left also helps Kagawa because he doesn't have his back to goal all the time as Fergie pointed out earlier in the season.
I still think (hope) he'll have a second season of the caliber Silva had. Nevs is probably right about him still playing from the left at times, maybe most of the time if Rooney stays.
Shinji:
Ever so modest! If that last sentence was any more Japanese, it would bow to you and apologize in advance for taking up your time
Premier League: Manchester United's Shinji Kagawa has big hopes for next season
Shinji Kagawa: Manchester United midfielder keen to emulate Robin van Persie and Wayne Rooney
The 24-year-old found life in the Premier League tough at times after joining United from Borussia Dortmund last summer, but an improvement in form since the turn of the year has given renewed hope to the midfielder.Shinji Kagawa has set his sights on becoming as influential as his Manchester United team-mates Robin van Persie and Wayne Rooney.
His confidence is an area Kagawa wants to work on if he is to be as good as his illustrious team-mates, and the Japan international hopes to build on this at the Confederations Cup, which starts this Saturday.
"I wasn't satisfied with my overall performance but I played well in the second half of the season and started to get more and more confidence," he told Sports Illustrated.
"Hopefully, I can keep that going at the Confederations Cup.
"In this business, you need to be like Rooney or Van Persie and prove yourself if you want the ball.
"I want to be a player like them, which means I need results."
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11667/8770466/Shinji-Kagawa-has-big-hopes-for-next-season
This is the article that those quotes are from.
I think Kagawa's issue is confidence. Earlier in the season he said this:
Its almost like he doesn't believe he deserves to wear the shirt. He could be a great little player here once he gets over that.
I prefer hearing that to Antonio "I am pleased with my contribution" Valencia.
Nah, he's just acting like a typical Japanese. Even if he won POTY, he'd still be humble as hell. It's just how their culture is.
Having said that, I do think Japanese football players in general struggle with confidence. Their national team is a perfect example of this. Despite being very skilled, they can be massive bottlers at times. If the opponent scores the first goal, then the game is almost 100% lost, even if the goal was scored in the first minute and the opponent is much weaker.
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