Shinji Kagawa

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I think hes a class player who will never be at United what you all want him to be, which is what he was at Dortmund.

The same line seems to get repeated over and over 'he showed glimpses of brilliance but...' and I dont think any run of games will solve the problem he has at United which is the positioning.

He is a much more talented player than Young and Valencia, but im not sure hes going to get the chance, even though I can see how you all desperately want him to get it by exaggerating everything he does or doesnt do.
 
Thought he did well - all in all. The lad has plenty of what we need - just needs to get a string of matches under his belt, get a little more comfortable and confident. Yes, he probably would be even better in the middle and closer to goal, but I think tonight was encouraging in many ways. I think he can do very well from a wider position, especially if we get both him and Nani going, having them switch sides, etc. It would be unreasonable to play anyone but Rooney in the hole at the moment - that's just a fact.
 
6/10.

Didn't make a convincing case to start our next game. Certainly won't have made Moyes regret not starting him at the weekend. Pity really. You can see the player he might become. Just needs to believe in himself. Lacks confidence.
 
He played three or four lovely 1-2s with other players. He's just an excellent link-up player in the final third.

Smashed the bar with a screamer but gave the ball away a few times and was outmuscled as bit too easily.

Still, the variety of movement and interplay with him in the side is considerably better.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
6/10.

Didn't make a convincing case to start our next game. Certainly won't have made Moyes regret not starting him at the weekend. Pity really. You can see the player he might become. Just needs to believe in himself. Lacks confidence.
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Maybe he needs the manager to believe in him first? Agree that he wasn't particularly special today but wouldn't it be worth committing to starting him in a run of games as an attempt to instill that confidence? Particularly now as we have a run of winnable games coming up. I don't like joining in on the mass hatred for Young but is Kagawa really likely to be worse?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
6/10.

Didn't make a convincing case to start our next game. Certainly won't have made Moyes regret not starting him at the weekend. Pity really. You can see the player he might become. Just needs to believe in himself. Lacks confidence.
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He's shown far more then Young and Valencia, so unless Januzi has shown more in training, then I think he should start our next game.
 
That spin and shot before he came off was nice, needs continuity, been far to stop and start in his short time here. His movement is excellent though, there were 2 times where he was a slide pass away from an easy finish only for Nani and Rooney to ignore him and shoot.
 
Sam said:
He's shown far more then Young and Valencia, so unless Januzi has shown more in training, then I think he should start our next game.
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Seriously. Young made 9 passes in the last game, no tackles, no shots. By just being on the pitch Kagawa has put forward a better argument for starting.
 
ItsEssexRob said:
I think hes a class player who will never be at United what you all want him to be, which is what he was at Dortmund.

The same line seems to get repeated over and over 'he showed glimpses of brilliance but...' and I dont think any run of games will solve the problem he has at United which is the positioning
o.
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The main issue, from what I can see, is that he's just not quite on the same wavelength as the others at times. He's a very clever player, and like I said in a previous post above, I think he needs to play in order to build up those understandings and partnerships.
 
I think the availability of RvP last summer was the worse thing that could've happened to him since it's quite possible the original plan was to play him in behind Rooney.

It's unlikely we'll ever see the form he showed at Dortmund on a consistent basis.
 
If it's a case of him over Young or Valencia then I don't see how he hasn't done enough to get a second run out to build from this. If it's just for a spot in the team then Hernandez should probs get the nod ahead of him in fairness, though that depends on if Moyes wants to try and build a different midfield to what we've seen so far with nani and kagawa in there. Nani should def start imo.
 
Sam said:
The main issue, from what I can see, is that he's just not quite on the same wavelength as the others at times. He's a very clever player, and like I said in a previous post above, I think he needs to play in order to build up those understandings and partnerships.
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Not sure if that was the main issue. From watching tonight's match, his main issue appeared to clearly be controlling the ball and passing it to a teammate. I like him and want him to start a run of games and all that, but he was still doing the basics wrong tonight.
 
Rozay said:
Not sure if that was the main issue. From watching tonight's match, his main issue appeared to clearly be controlling the ball and passing it to a teammate.
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:confused:

Of the starting 11 only Hernandez had a better pass percentage than Kagawa, he wasn't giving it away much at all.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
6/10.

Didn't make a convincing case to start our next game. Certainly won't have made Moyes regret not starting him at the weekend. Pity really. You can see the player he might become. Just needs to believe in himself. Lacks confidence.
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Agree on the 6/10, probably a 5/10 in the 1st and a far better 7/10 in the second.

Disagree on the second part though, for the reasons you mention he needs a run of games. He lacks confidence and clearly isn't match fit either, there was enough quality in his game against both Leverkusen and Liverpool to justify a few games to try and shake those issues. His fitness will come and if he's playing well the confidence will follow.
 
Ixion said:
Seriously. Young made 9 passes in the last game, no tackles, no shots. By just being on the pitch Kagawa has put forward a better argument for starting.
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Yeah, I'm not sure "just being on the pitch" will have made moyes tear his hair out about not giving him the nod against city.

In the last week he's had two chances to prove that moyes (and fergie before him) have missed a trick by not playing him more. Beats the hell out of me how anyone can have watched those two games and think he did anything of the sort.
 
I thought he was dog shit in the first half, but had a very good spell early in the second, but still got pushed off the ball very easily.

I'd still rather he starts. His movement alone is worth more than Young & Valencia, and as for "just being on the pitch" he's been on the pitch for our two best performances so far, so clearly there's something to that.

I'd probably help if Moyes finally "gets to know him" which he keeps reminding us he's been struggling to find time to do for 2 months. He's probably got a very full inbox tbf.
 
I think while he didnt have a great game its clear that he can play a bit. As the season develops Im sure he is going to get better and better. Its a long season, he is going to be an important part of the whole season.
 
Put it another way. Hernandez has the exact same excuse re match fitness, lack of games, yada yada yada. His performance really gives moyes a tough decision. How does he find a way to accomodate a player who's done everything possible to force his way into the team?

Did Kagawa do the same after getting twice as many opportunities to impress?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, I'm not sure "just being on the pitch" will have made moyes tear his hair out about not giving him the nod against city.

In the last week he's had two chances to prove that moyes (and fergie before him) have missed a trick by not playing him more. Beats the hell out of me how anyone can have watched those two games and think he did anything of the sort.
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Well he'c clearly not fully sharp yet. I think the movements he's shown have suggested he could have brought something to the team we've lacked and that maybe we could have done more to get him sharp for these last few fixtures. Obviously though we don't know how much the prior injuries, and travelling have slowed him down and how much was Moyes being a bit cautious with him.

But in general you're right that he needs to do more. Personally though I think there's enough there to give him a run to get that sharpness and blend with the team, then if he doesn't take it, you can question him more. But coming in for his first start midweek, and then coming in to a much changed united team against probably Liverpools strongest team who were largely fully sharp is quite tough, so understandable if he wasn't as impactful as we would like.
 
Aboutreika18 said:
He played three or four lovely 1-2s with other players. He's just an excellent link-up player in the final third.

Smashed the bar with a screamer but gave the ball away a few times and was outmuscled as bit too easily.

Still, the variety of movement and interplay with him in the side is considerably better.
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That's not going to change - it was an issue in the Bundesliga as well. Fergie bought Kagawa warts n all.

He needs a manager with confidence in him - who believes that his positives outweigh the negative of being a little lightweight.
 
Hard to see where he's going to get games with Rooneys form.

He's wasted out wide.
 
Theon said:
:confused:

Of the starting 11 only Hernandez had a better pass percentage than Kagawa, he wasn't giving it away much at all.
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On normal days Young and Valencia don't give the ball away much either. They'll still get slaughtered for playing it safe though.
 
Will Absolute said:
That's not going to change - it was an issue in the Bundesliga as well. Fergie bought Kagawa warts n all.

He needs a manager with confidence in him - who believes that his positives outweigh the negative of being a little lightweight.
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It's up to the player to showcase those positives. He hasn't. One or two flashes over 90 minutes just isn't good enough. Not when he's a defensive liability to boot.
 
acnumber9 said:
On normal days Young and Valencia don't give the ball away much either. They'll still get slaughtered for playing it safe though.
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Some of our best link up play came from Kagawa and he could have set up a couple of goals, particularly the one with Rooney.

Not sure why you have even brought up the comparison with those two, do you think Young and Valencia are better passers? Because that is mental.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Put it another way. Hernandez has the exact same excuse re match fitness, lack of games, yada yada yada. His performance really gives moyes a tough decision. How does he find a way to accomodate a player who's done everything possible to force his way into the team?

Did Kagawa do the same after getting twice as many opportunities to impress?
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You're right. But Hernandez is a different player, competing for a different position. If RVP doesn't make it back in time I see no reason not to field the same players at the weekend: Hernandez up front, Rooney in the hole, Nani and Kagawa flanking him. The question then becomes who has been impressive enough to merit a place over Kagawa in the wide role.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
You're right. But Hernandez is a different player, competing for a different position. If RVP doesn't make it back in time I see no reason not to field the same players at the weekend: Hernandez up front, Rooney in the hole, Nani and Kagawa flanking him. The question then becomes who has been impressive enough to merit a place over Kagawa in the wide role.
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Valencia right and Nani left seems fair to me based on form.
 
Moyes comments in the post match press conference when asked about him were very diplomatic but suggested he's a bit off the pace and needs to regain match fitness. Sounds like Moyes isn't quite sold on him. I'd like to see him and Nani given a run of games, they'll not find form on the bench and even rusty I'd take both over Young/Valencia atm.
 
Theon said:
Some of our best link up play came from Kagawa and he could have set up a couple of goals, particularly the one with Rooney.

Not sure why you have even brought up the comparison with those two, do you think Young and Valencia are better passers? Because that is mental.
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I compared the difference in how those players are viewed when they play. Kagawa put in as bad a performance in that first half as anyone in our squad this season. For all the talk of his lack of sharpness he's started the same number of games as Ashley Young this season. I don't see that excuse being applied to everyone.
 
mickeza said:
Valencia right and Nani left seems fair to me based on form.
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I can live with that too, by all means. I just think it's obvious that Kagawa has something to offer which Valencia clearly isn't capable of if we are to use a 4-2-3-1 formation. If Valencia hits top form it's an entirely different matter. I personally would prefer giving Kagawa a proper go, start him regularly and see where that takes us - over starting a, say, ordinary Valencia.

I guess I want us to try as best we can to find a way to utilize Kagawa's obvious qualities. If this keeps faltering, fair enough - he will have to become a fringe player permanently. But I want us to give it a proper go, make a priority of it if you will. And this is based on the lad's potential - pure and simple. I think he can be great, not just somewhat decent.
 
Mockney said:
I thought he was dog shit in the first half, but had a very good spell early in the second, but still got pushed off the ball very easily.

I'd still rather he starts. His movement alone is worth more than Young & Valencia, and as for "just being on the pitch" he's been on the pitch for our two best performances so far, so clearly there's something to that.

I'd probably help if Moyes finally "gets to know him" which he keeps reminding us he's been struggling to find time to do for 2 months. He's probably got a very full inbox tbf.
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Good point and agree that for this alone he deserves a sustained run of 3-4 games just to see if he make an impact. I don't think him and Evra is going to work, but I'd like to see him in the right with Rafael.
 
He wasnt great but I'd like to see him get a run of games, he is the type of player who needs to get a good understanding with those around him and that is not going to happen immediately
 
It seems I was correct to raise doubt about his physical attributes when we signed him as he really struggles in this aspect. I've grown to really like him as a player but there are a number of massive issues that he needs to overcome in order to be anywhere near as influential here as he was at Dortmund.

Firstly, he seems unaware of how to play down the left. He was a bit of a disaster in that position tonight, which I think Fergie decided he was more suited to by the end of his reign. I remember the game against Spurs where Fergie moved him all over to try and get him going and he showed glimpses from the left.

He also seriously lacks authority and self confidence in his game. How is he supposed to play as our #10, our creator and go-to guy when he lacks authority? He looked scared to receive the ball at times tonight. I don't think you can have that sort of character and be the player that is relied upon to orchestrate the attacks, especially in high pressure situations.
 
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