Didn't we have loads of injuries and stuff which was why Macheda and Welbeck were even on the bench to being with?
Shinji Kagawa
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Who was put on for Kagawa, or was Kagawa not subbed at HT?
Kagawa off, Adnan Januzaj - highly rated 18 year old on.
I thought it was a very bold move and you never know, maybe Adnan has earned it with the way he's applying himself in training or something. But Adnan's actual performance made it a clear mistake. He could have come on and played a blinder and we'd be saying it was a great choice. That didnt happen and it wasnt
I thought it was a very bold move and you never know, maybe Adnan has earned it with the way he's applying himself in training or something. But Adnan's actual performance made it a clear mistake. He could have come on and played a blinder and we'd be saying it was a great choice. That didnt happen and it wasnt
It was too risky and unnecessary in a game that was still in the balance, and the opposing team looking very dangerous. We saw with in 30 seconds his inexperience whereby he almost gifted them a goal to start the 2nd half. Not as if Kagawa was having a shocker either or the team desperately needed a change.
Maybe the experience from City in not changing things at half time pressured him into a move in this game, which would be a bit a panic-call if you ask me, especially given the game was still level and within our grasp with plenty of time left.
Kagawa is criminally underused, I was bemused by his substitution, for me one of the better players in the first half.
Yeah but you also risk killing a players motivation off, it is poor man-management.. as he was actually doing decent.
I'm not saying it was a good sub. I certainly didnt understand it at the time. But if Moyes bought him on for Kagawa for tactical reasons he must have seen something in training to suggest Adnan is ready to come in and win a match for us. He just didnt play that well
Worst thing is, we will probably lose both him and Rooney by next summer.
I can't figure this out.
If he was taken off for not staying wide then Moyes is an idiot for expecting him to in the first place.
He played a system with two wide players who like to cut inside and then put a centreback in one of the fullback positions and a reserve player in the other...and then presumably blamed Kagawa for this not working?
I didn't think he was that amazing in the first half but he was one of the few players who had any threat about them. Janujaz did fine when he came on but that was at the expense of Nani being able to be anywhere near as involved. It was just a completely pointless waste of a substitution.
It was Buttner and Jones who were stopping the system from working, and it wasn't really either of their fault as neither have EVER looked remotely comfortable playing at fullback. Especially Jones
If he was taken off for not staying wide then Moyes is an idiot for expecting him to in the first place.
He played a system with two wide players who like to cut inside and then put a centreback in one of the fullback positions and a reserve player in the other...and then presumably blamed Kagawa for this not working?
I didn't think he was that amazing in the first half but he was one of the few players who had any threat about them. Janujaz did fine when he came on but that was at the expense of Nani being able to be anywhere near as involved. It was just a completely pointless waste of a substitution.
It was Buttner and Jones who were stopping the system from working, and it wasn't really either of their fault as neither have EVER looked remotely comfortable playing at fullback. Especially Jones
Buttner should theoretically work with what you're saying - providing width for Kagawa - because he is very attacking.
Yes but he's also shit.
He's a better LB than Jones is a RB, which isn't difficult to be fair..
He's not that bad going forward, which is what you were banging on about. I agree he's shite but he can provide width in that system.
I would say it's irrelevant since neither are anywhere near capable of playing as Premier League fullbacks.
We're champions and three of our back four today would have been torn a new one against most championship sides.
We're champions and three of our back four today would have been torn a new one against most championship sides.
It's not irrelevant because you were criticising Moyes' tactics for having two wingers who drift inside and don't offer width. Playing Buttner was trying to offset that because that's exactly what he semi-offers.
Evra offers the same to be fair, Fabio too.
If we ignore that part of a fullback's job is to defend then I agree.
He's not good enough. He was given the ball out wide enough times today and got no decent service into the box. He can't defend either so I don't really understand what it is he offers in that position.
His speciality seems to be trapping himself on the touchline and then conceding a throw in. We already have too many players who are skilled at needlessly conceding throw ins.
Kagawa seemed to get caught out of position a lot. Every time they won the ball back in defence our left side was completely wide open.
You could accept it if he was tearing them apart in attack, but he wasn't. If he wants to play then he has to be willing to follow orders and adapt to the way we play. We can't just allow all our players to go out there and play as they like.
You could accept it if he was tearing them apart in attack, but he wasn't. If he wants to play then he has to be willing to follow orders and adapt to the way we play. We can't just allow all our players to go out there and play as they like.
Are you describing Buttner or Kagawa there?
Yeah no doubt, like I said I know he's shite but in terms of tactics it wasn't a stupid move. I think Moyes genuinely underestimated West Brom and tried to give some squad players game time.
But the idea of having Kagawa cutting inside with an attacking wingback providing width isn't a bad one.
It is irrelevant because he didn't offer this width you claim he does today. He just kept getting the ball and pissing around with it. He offered no more decent attacking width than Jones did. Probably even less so.
Nah he got forward in the 1st half on a few occasions.
But I wasn't talking about the game today, because players can have shit games. I was just talking about Moyes' tactics and to me there was nothing wrong with playing Buttner behind Kagawa, getting forward is about the only thing Buttner can do half decently.
I'm baffled by how we've used this guy since we bought him. We've signed a player who was outstanding for two seasons in the league that closest resembles are own and have barely used him and rarely got the best out of him.
Jones got forward as much and at least didn't disappear into some kind of vortex whenever West Brom attacked down his side of the pitch. Neither of them can cross a bal well enough to play in those roles. Neither of them are fullbacks. Buttner is a winger and Jones is a centreback. You can't have a system dependant on very good fullbacks and then just stick a couple of random players there who don't even know how to play the position.
If the winger cuts inside the fullback needs to not be rash defensively as well since he'll be exposed when we lose the ball. Would you say it is wise to trust Buttner to not be rash defensively? How about that responsible piece of defending on the first West Brom goal?
I haven't seen Buttner play a game for United where he's provided decent threat from wide. What is the idea that he can based on...the fact that he can't defend?
I thought it was bizarre, and even more so to haul Kagawa off for a similar type of player when it didn't seem to work, as if this would somehow fix everything.
You yourself just said he was a winger you nutter, so obviously you acknowledge yourself that attacking is the major aspect of his game.On the defensive part - no of course not, which is why I wouldn't have played Buttner and why I've called him shit. As I said above though I think Moyes 1) Underrated West Brom, 2) Wanted to give his squad players some game time, probably to indicate they were all starting with a clean slate under new management.
I said he's a winger because that's what he is. I didn't say he was any good at it. Evidentally he is not.
For some reason Fergie felt the need to buy a sub par winger and use them as a fullback. I don't really know why, but that's what we've got.
I have nothing against him but he's never an option at fullback if the player ahead of him is going to come off the wing. It's risky enough playing him at fullback at all let alone leaving him exposed there.
For some reason Fergie felt the need to buy a sub par winger and use them as a fullback. I don't really know why, but that's what we've got.
I have nothing against him but he's never an option at fullback if the player ahead of him is going to come off the wing. It's risky enough playing him at fullback at all let alone leaving him exposed there.
You're asking me why I think Buttner can provide width on the left, whilst simultaneously saying he's a winger playing at fullback.
We know Buttner's shite and I wouldn't have played him, but the one thing he could potentially offer is some sort of width on the left.
We know Buttner's shite and I wouldn't have played him, but the one thing he could potentially offer is some sort of width on the left.
He can stand out there yeah. So can Jones. So can anyone.
I said playing a winger who cuts inside means your fullback has to be very good or it wont work. Where this idea that being a very good fullback just involves staying out wide comes from I do not know.
Anyone can play at fullback and provide "width" on the left. It's not much use when they can't defend or put a decent ball into the box.
Yeah me neither, because I've certainly not said anything like that.
Theon in 'Buttner best full back in the world' SHOCKER!
I said the system needs very good fullbacks which is why playing Buttner and Jones there was daft.
You said it wasn't so daft because Buttner can provide width.
I don't think simply providing width is indicative of being a good fullback.
You then admit Buttner is a shit fullback.
I therfore don't understand what part of my initial comment you disagreed with.
This is a very bizarre argument.
You said it wasn't so daft because Buttner can provide width.
I don't think simply providing width is indicative of being a good fullback.
You then admit Buttner is a shit fullback.
I therfore don't understand what part of my initial comment you disagreed with.
This is a very bizarre argument.
I agree its a weird argument. Anyway, this was my first response and sole point
I know hes shit and never said otherwise - its certainly not something you got me to 'admit' to.
The basic idea is that Moyes did nothing tactically wrong for me, he did clearly underestimate West Brom though. And a lot of the players let him down.
I know hes shit and never said otherwise - its certainly not something you got me to 'admit' to.
The basic idea is that Moyes did nothing tactically wrong for me, he did clearly underestimate West Brom though. And a lot of the players let him down.
Also this isn't what you were saying, and what you were actually saying is more correct than this.
A 4-2-3-1 with false wingers on the flanks needs very good attacking fullbacks, otherwise you get a clusterfeck in the middle and its just easy to defend against. That's why I agree with your comment on Jones not being suited.
With Buttner though the idea was that he would provide that attacking width when Kagawa went walkabouts in the middle, which isn't a bad one from Moyes.
It is a bad one though because despite the perceived wisdom to the contrary, Buttner isn't that good going forward, and limiting our attacking threat from the fullback positions like Moyes did is a daft thing to do when we don't have RVP to magically create a goal out of nothing.
He's not particularly good at anything, but the sole thing he could do half decently is get forward. That's my opinion anyway, he's shit but he can get forward.
That team really should have beaten West Brom at home, so I don't think Moyes expected to be reliant on Van Persie coming on and magically creating a goal. Did you expect that when you saw the line ups? It was more than good enough but there were some shocking individual performances.
I did expect that, I said in the match day thread that Moyes had taken a risk. We looked vulnerable defensively and seemed to lack balance in an attacking sense, which was especially down to our options at fullback. I'm not sure if there were that many shocking individual performances, not from the attacking players anyway, in the first half I thought Kagawa, Nani, Rooney and Hernandez all looked quite good, but we created next to nothing. We also moved the ball too slowly, but we've been doing that for quite a while now.
I didn't think it was a tactical disaster at all. It was a pretty standard United set up. This weird obsession with using people who aren't fullbacks at fullback is something that pre-dates Moyes anyway. I don't know why we seem to think it's a good idea since absolutely no positives have ever come from it, but still.
What I found weird was taking Kagawa off. He wasn't great, but he certainly wasn't bad enough to justify hooking him off at half time. It was as if Moyes was blaming him for the system not working when it was obvious Kagawa wasn't going to provide natural width because that isn't something he's capable of doing. Then all he did was bring on another similar player and switch Nani over to the left anyway.
I thought it was noticable throughout the first half that Jones and Buttner were the players being left in space but were so tame there wasn't really much point in giving either of them the ball. Jones was semi useful but only because Nani was using him as a decoy. The change helped this in no way at all.
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