Shinji Kagawa

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Pogue Mahone said:
He tried that up until yesterday and got a horrible, tired looking performance against City. Freshened things up mid-week and got some decent displays from fringe players. WBA was the perfect game to reward those players with a show of faith, while adding in enough of our best first teamers to still win comfortably.

Genuinely baffled by the criticism of the team he picked. Was there any before the game kicked off? Fergie's team selections were occasionally quite hard to understand. Can't say the same about the team Moyes picked yesterday. Although, as has always happened, dropped points results in fans being wise with hindsight.
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There's no way anyone can look at our players and think Young or Rio Ferdinand are part of our strongest team.

I didn't have that much of a problem with the team yesterday, Rio aside. It was more his poor reaction to the parts of it that obviously weren't working. He didn't address any of them with any of the substitutions.

Fergie was often guilty of similar but he's also better than any other manager ever when it comes to other areas. Whoever was going to come in to replace Fergie could not afford to make the same mistakes as him...and picking non fullbacks in a system dependent on fullbacks and playing shockingly poor performing players just because of their "experience" are two very Fergie like mistakes. THe whole makeshift fullback thing is something Ferguson started with Jones and Smalling and has never once looked like a good idea...and the repeated inclusion of Rio despite him being a liability is very similar to Ferguson's blindness to Scholes's flaws last season.

Moyes will need time to get things right so I'm not really frustrated at him or losing any patience, but there's little point pretending something isn't wrong when it is. If Jones is at fullback and Rio in the centre again next weekend for example, then you'd have to ask what exactly Moyes is basing his team selections on, because it certainly wouldn't be based on anything that's happened on the pitch this season.

Was there any justification based on previous games this season for starting Rio over Vidic, Jones and Smalling at centreback yesterday? Even if he wanted to rest other players for the CL he's got alternatives to spare. Fabio's played once at right fullback this season and then disappeared from sight again despite looking much more capable than anyone else who's played there since other than his brother. It seems to me Moyes is placing trust in someone at the club who's opinions should be ignored at all costs. Probably the same person who STILL thinks Nani isn't shit at taking corners.
 
manusteve said:
Watching the first few games this season has been depressing. I understand that under SAF we played with caution away from home in the Champions League, but in the Premier League even poor performances included moments of exciting, if desperate, attacking.

Under Moyes, there is a joyless method of play that I wouldn't wholly blame the players for.

I agree with giving a new manager a chance to develop his own style, it's just I don't like Moyes' style!
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Well, unless Moyes's style has completely changed from his entire time at Everton, this team isn't playing with his "style" at all. It looks like the same lifeless, soulless style as the last two years to me, which tbh was always going to catch up on the team sooner or later.

Everton were a much more exciting team to watch than United last season and probably played at the highest tempo in the league discounting the first 20 minutes of Arsenal games, so I don't think the idea that Moyes is asking or influencing the players to play so lifelessly washes really.
 
What infuriates me at the moment is the sheer predictability of the team.
 
I think if RVP had come up with a great goal, it could have passed for one of last season's performances
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
Its been like that for a while, mate. Rely on crosses or someone to do something special.
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Majority of time is spent on sideways and back passes between the 4 defenders and our 2 centre mids.
 
Ekeke said:
I think if RVP had come up with a great goal, it could have passed for one of last season's performances
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Simply put, yes. Moyes is getting a lot of unfair flak.
 
Ekeke said:
I think if RVP had come up with a great goal, it could have passed for one of last season's performances
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I agree, though I'm not sure why it keeps being mentioned like that's a good thing.. The only thing I was looking forward to following Fergie's retirement was a manager that had new new ideas, a different style, approach, methods. Instead we traded in for more of the same but with shittier results.
 
i would like to see this formation/team:

-----------------De Gea-----------------

Rafael------Vidic------Evans--------Evra

-------------Carrick (DM)---------------

------Fellaini (CM)---Kagawa (AM)------

Rooney (RF) ----------Nani/Januzaj (LF)

--------------RVP(CF)-----------------

i say forget pure rigid width (as in a 442) for now and play are mixed passing game concentrating on defence splitting passes. I think kagawa presses much better than anderson, he might not have his strength but he more than makes up for it in the attacking sense
 
Mad Winger said:
What's almost just as surprising is that Moyes made a substitute in the first place. I think the first half was really good. The only thing it missed, was goals. We had 4-5(?) clear cut chances, all created from open play. And not only that; we actually had variety and unpredictability! It was thoroughly enjoyable to watch, in my opinion. We had 2 great counter-attacks, 3-4 brilliant crosses, slow build-up plays, and even a few direct attacks down the center.

Why would Moyes want to change this? Because we let WBA create 2-3 decent chances? Because we didn't dominate possession in midfield as much as we usually do on Old Trafford? Screw that! We actually played entertaining and good football, with a littler higher risk than usual. That's exactly what I want to see more of! And I know more people would have agreed with me, had we scored a goal(which we really should have done, given the chances we created).

I don't want us to be solid, but create few chances. It's a boring compromise, and I don't think it will win us any titles. And that is why I hope that Moyes will play the Nani/Rooney/Kagawa combination more. Not just because it's pleasing to the eye, but also because I genuinely think it will win us more games and titles in the long run.
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This.
Nani was fecking brilliant from the right hand side, and I throughly enjoyed Shinji working that left hand side with Rooney. It's just the fullbacks were fecking atrocious. Buttner couldn't cross to save his life, and Jones is just there. They're a liability defensively and even worse offensively. I would've thought that any changes at half time would involve those two. Rooney, Kagawa and Nani oozes creativity and unpredictability. Something that we haven't seen enough this season. If Hernandez was his usual self, we could've got 2-3 goals at half time and it wouldn't be an overstatement.
 
gulli_G said:
i would like to see this formation/team:

-----------------De Gea-----------------

Rafael------Vidic------Evans--------Evra

-------------Carrick (DM)---------------

------Fellaini (CM)---Kagawa (AM)------

Rooney (RF) ----------Nani/Januzaj (LF)

--------------RVP(CF)-----------------

i say forget pure rigid width (as in a 442) for now and play are mixed passing game concentrating on defence splitting passes. I think kagawa presses much better than anderson, he might not have his strength but he more than makes up for it in the attacking sense
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I suggested this. Fellaini could also be swapped with Cleverley because he gives us a better tempo and has better movement. I really think we need to play with three in the middle but I can't see us doing it because the need to play Rooney behind Robin seems to override everything else.
 
Hope he never leaves as he is world class but horrible to see him played out of position or on the bench. If Atletico really wanted him like Sport in Spain are reporting and were willing to exchange him for Oliver Torres in January then we should snap their hands off as we need to get our priorities right
 
LR7 said:
I suggested this. Fellaini could also be swapped with Cleverley because he gives us a better tempo and has better movement. I really think we need to play with three in the middle but I can't see us doing it because the need to play Rooney behind Robin seems to override everything else.
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That team lacks stability for me, if you are going to use Kagawa in that way, I'd prefer:​
​
DDG​
Rafael Vidic Evans Fabio​
Fellaini Carrick​
Kagawa Rooney Nani (All interchanging)​
RVP​
​
I appreciate the CAM role is Kagawa's preferred but you don't dislodge a better player (Rooney) to allow another player to try and reach similar levels, that's not to the benefit of the team, but to the benefit of Kagawa, he has to earn it.​
 
Ringo 07 said:
Hope he never leaves as he is world class but horrible to see him played out of position or on the bench. If Atletico really wanted him like Sport in Spain are reporting and were willing to exchange him for Oliver Torres in January then we should snap their hands off as we need to get our priorities right
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Came with a lofty reputation but hasn't adapted to the PL. Unless something dramatic happens between now and January I think you will see him leaving
 
I really would like to see the front four of Shinji, Rooney, Nani and RVP given a run of matches together. With Lewandowski leaving at the end of the season, it will be no surprise if Kagawa returns to Dortmund if this season at OT turns out to be uneventful.
 
Ringo 07 said:
The fact that we don't have a player in central midfield able to create anything for our strikers is incredibly worrying
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We should be able to create enough from elsewhere, though. We should get away with fielding Carrick and Fellaini (or Cleverley) as CMs as long as we can get those behind RVP (or Chicharito) to gel properly and start playing a little more innovative football.

Or we could try a 4-3-3. Rooney doesn't have to play behind RVP - he could work equally well as a right- or left sided forward with RVP in the middle and any one out of Nani, Kagawa and Januzai (Zaha for that matter, he hasn't been tested properly yet) on the other side. The three in the middle would then be Carrick, Fellaini and Cleverley. But our man Shinji could also play as the most advanced of this trio. It could work.
 
Jaybezia said:
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​
That team lacks stability for me, if you are going to use Kagawa in that way, I'd prefer:​
​
DDG​
Rafael Vidic Evans Fabio​
Fellaini Carrick​
Kagawa Rooney Nani (All interchanging)​
RVP​
​
I appreciate the CAM role is Kagawa's preferred but you don't dislodge a better player (Rooney) to allow another player to try and reach similar levels, that's not to the benefit of the team, but to the benefit of Kagawa, he has to earn it.​
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What does that mean? He needs to work hard in training and convince the manager, then the manager needs to decide what line-up and what tactics gets the best performance out of the team and that's it. "He has to earn it" sounds like he needs to surpass Rooney's level while being played out of position and only then the manager can change it, because the CAM role is something special that no one deserves to take away from Rooney. That certainly wouldn't be to the benefit of the team, that would mean that the manager doesn't have a clear plan how he wants the team to play or that he's afraid to make unpopular decisions. That would be worrying.

Kagawa is a totally different player than Rooney and if he starts in the CAM role it should be because there's a smart idea behind it, a clear plan how to make it work, how to use the strengths of the player, how to act defensively with him in that role. It really shouldn't be because he became a great player on the left, because then most likely the manager already found a formation that works and there's no need for change anymore.
 
Balu said:
What does that mean? He needs to work hard in training and convince the manager, then the manager needs to decide what line-up and what tactics gets the best performance out of the team and that's it. "He has to earn it" sounds like he needs to surpass Rooney's level while being played out of position and only then the manager can change it, because the CAM role is something special that no one deserves to take away from Rooney. That certainly wouldn't be to the benefit of the team, that would mean that the manager doesn't have a clear plan how he wants the team to play or that he's afraid to make unpopular decisions. That would be worrying.

Kagawa is a totally different player than Rooney and if he starts in the CAM role it should be because there's a smart idea behind it, a clear plan how to make it work, how to use the strengths of the player, how to act defensively with him in that role. It really shouldn't be because he became a great player on the left, because then most likely the manager already found a formation that works and there's no need for change anymore.
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No, you are just sensationalising what I am saying, Kagawa has to get to a performance where we can say you at least were one of the better players, before then arranging the whole team around someone who when shifted slightly out of CLUB position, not NT as he plays there, can't manage to have one game where he is standing out yet? Again, no slight on the player as I believe he will come good, but it's more aimed at those who think we should build the team around him, my point is it's what you do here, not what you did before here (I.e. Germany), he may never reproduce the similar sort of performances (I'm sure he will obviously, but we can't say for definite), whereas someone like Rooney who has done it here time and time again, I wouldn't drop simply to give someone the chance to do what he does, unless you believe Kagawa can surpass the ability of Rooney in CAM? Even if the team is slightly different and they play the positions differently, you should be able to measure their performances and I have seen nothing to suggest Kagawa will outperform Rooney in his favoured role.
 
Ringo 07 said:
Hope he never leaves as he is world class but horrible to see him played out of position or on the bench. If Atletico really wanted him like Sport in Spain are reporting and were willing to exchange him for Oliver Torres in January then we should snap their hands off as we need to get our priorities right
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Seriously? They'd give us Oliver Torres for Kagawa? That's definitely something we should consider if true. Looks like a potential Paul Scholes to me.
 
'I have to take this like some kind of message (from the manager),’ said Kagawa. ‘I need to improve more and more, or I cannot survive at this club.
‘I have to take this in a positive way and keep trying to do my best...
‘I thought that I would have been able to find some space to create the chances in the second half. In that sense I was disappointed (to have been substituted).
‘Sure, I wasn’t involved that much, I didn’t touch the ball enough but I was trying to be patient so I didn’t feel that bad.’
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I have to take this in a positive way and keep trying to do my best...
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Say what you want about the player, but this is a top notch attitude. I can not think of any other so obviously talented players being benched despite being more than ready for the first XI, and then managing to remain so calm an collected when interviewed. Having lived in Japan for a while, I know that this is very typical behavior. But it's still refreshing to see footballers like this.
 
Sam said:
'I have to take this like some kind of message (from the manager),’ said Kagawa. ‘I need to improve more and more, or I cannot survive at this club.
‘I have to take this in a positive way and keep trying to do my best...
‘I thought that I would have been able to find some space to create the chances in the second half. In that sense I was disappointed (to have been substituted).
‘Sure, I wasn’t involved that much, I didn’t touch the ball enough but I was trying to be patient so I didn’t feel that bad.’
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:(
 
I had initially thought that his sub had been planned, give him another half but also give January a run. Doesn't look like the case if those quotes are true. I'm not really sure the problem with kagawa, he definitely can play from the left but it takes time to get it right. You need to build an understanding from others that they can't all end up in the same area and with the midfielder on his side who needs to be in a position to cover that left side if a move breaks down. Kagawa can do more but he is clearly a top talent and we should and I hope will give him time.
 
pocco said:
Seriously? They'd give us Oliver Torres for Kagawa? That's definitely something we should consider if true. Looks like a potential Paul Scholes to me.
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Are ou insane? Swapping a techincally gifted playmaker, proven in Europe, voted Player of the season in the Bundesliga ahead of some superb players, for a 18 year old Spanish fella, because he may have some potential?
 
From watching the Kagawa vs West Brom video posted earlier in the thread, it seemed that earlier on in the game he was drifting inside as he naturally does, a lot more than in the latter stages where he appeared to be staying wide left more, as if instructed to. I always thought at Everton Meirallas and Pienaar drifted inside often, and its not Kagawa's natural game to stay so close to the touchline. If he's expected to stay wide left and not drift in I think he will struggle.
 
Fantastic attitude. If I was to take a positive, it's that he's improved in every game he's played this season. Maybe not massively, or as we expect, but it's better than average performances. It's so frustrating watching him not play as a #10, but he's growing more into the interior role at Manchester United. I hope he succeeds.​
 
Refreshing attitude from a footballer.
 
mlclauhk said:
Are ou insane? Swapping a techincally gifted playmaker, proven in Europe, voted Player of the season in the Bundesliga ahead of some superb players, for a 18 year old Spanish fella, because he may have some potential?
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I bet Torres would end up wanting to go back to Spain once he established himself as a star as well. "It was always my dream to play for X": been there, done that.
 
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