What's the difference when Rooney plays behind the striker? The man is a goal threat, sure, but he's not exactly an offensive playmaker. Playing with Rooney + another striker in front of him, is essentially like playing 4-4-2.
Shinji Kagawa
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What's the difference when Rooney plays behind the striker? The man is a goal threat, sure, but he's not exactly an offensive playmaker. Playing with Rooney + another striker in front of him, is essentially like playing 4-4-2.
He hasn't gotten a decent run of games. You're right, he's not going to replace Rooney. But even when Rooney hasn't started, he's not given a chance. And he would have been the perfect substitute to keep possession of the ball today.
That's it. It's about not correctly using the players on the bench today. That's why this thread has resurfaced today.
Rooney is definitely playing further forward than normal, it's part of the reason there are so few options when we have the ball in our own half. I'm guessing this is to keep Rooney happy, but I really don't think it's for the good of the team.
From today:
He's pretty much right up there beside Van Persie. He is playing further up than last season from what I can see.
From today:
He's pretty much right up there beside Van Persie. He is playing further up than last season from what I can see.
He's still playing behind Van Persie. I'd describe it as a 4-4-2, with two strikers working in a tandem, but this season he tends to move next to Van Persie. Interestingly, when he has played with Hernández this season, it's not been the same. Where did you get the graphic btw?
Ideally no however, I wont be surprised if he covers more inches of pitch then that waste of space.
We can't really judge the player unless he's being played. The guy did wonders with Dortmund and yet he's deemed not good enough in a team where the likes of Giggs, Fellaini and Young can get games in
I don't find it hard to understand....which I why I said he plays in Rooney's position. Unfortunately for Kagawa Rooney has pretty much been our best player and therefore you're not going to walk in to the team and may have to play out of position. The Champions League game he played in vs. Leverkusen I thought he was awful, fair enough he wasn't in his natural position but he was consistently losing the ball, over running it and just looked a bit lost, it's hardly a sign of encouragement. I didn't particularly think he was brilliant last season either. I concede I don't wtch Bundesliga football and I'd hardly seen him play before he came to United so I don't know what he was like but maybe he just doesn't suit the system.
Possible. I or any of us has enough insight to answer that question. All I know is that Kagawa always stood out in training at Dortmund and was said to be one of the most impressive players in training at United last season.
I see that very pragmatic at the moment to be honest. Kagawa was in this season 9 times in the squad and played under 200 minutes. That is simply not enough for a player as ambitious as Kagawa, who is expected to be one of the carriers of his national team in the upcoming world cup.
In the last interview I saw from him he already tied his suffering form for Japan to the lack of game time at United. This was a big sign that he will push for a transfer in the winter (Dortmund being his safest destination) if things don´t change dramatically.
Then people will ask why it has not worked out for him there. Most will probably see it similar to myself, viewing this whole saga as a big misunderstanding. On the other hand some will question his skills, versatility or ability to adapt or cite the big competition at United, eventhough he would be be certain to play more for Dortmund, a team with as much quality in the offensive midfield as United.
It's really not important how high up the pitch he stays, because his movemant is good IMO, it's his lack of creativity, and him struggling to actually control the ball in first place(which is ridiculous for a player that is rated so high), he was dispossesed probably every time he got the ball in last 15-20 minutes.
It's double standards, Kagawa gets dispossessed two times per game, and people attack him in every post how weak on the ball he is, and with Rooney who is much tougher guy that happens every 5 or 10 mins, and yet everybody finds that normal. At the half time, people said that Nani should be included more in the game, and yet he had just 5 less touches than Rooney, our number 10, player who should actually create our play.
It's double standards, Kagawa gets dispossessed two times per game, and people attack him in every post how weak on the ball he is, and with Rooney who is much tougher guy that happens every 5 or 10 mins, and yet everybody finds that normal. At the half time, people said that Nani should be included more in the game, and yet he had just 5 less touches than Rooney, our number 10, player who should actually create our play.
Yeah, I'd call it a 442 with one dropping off as opposed to a 4231 with Rooney playing in the middle of the '3'. I'd get Kagawa in there for one of Rooney or Van Persie for a game or two and see how it goes.
Got the graphic from here.
pity about my terrible paint/cropping skills, you can barely see the numbers.
You can also get a sort of average postions here, but its not as precise as the one above since it uses names instead of dots.
I understand the latter part of your post, but I can't understand why you'd be giving shit to Fellaini in order to highlight that Kagawa should play. I do think he should play as well.
And ideally, I'd suit them both in the squad.
I fear its not just about Rooney blocking his way, its just Moyes doesnt rate him. If Its either Rooney/RvP or Kagawa, then he'd play when one of them didnt play. But it didnt happen.
Nice one, thanks. I usually use WhoScored.
I don't doubt Kagawa's ability and I think he's a quality player. My issue is most people seem to want to bungle him into a starting 11 just for the sake of getting him in, I'd like to see him play in his proper position through the middle. Kagawa's problem is his main competition for that role is Rooney, who is undoubtedly (in my opinion) the engine of United's attack and a large proportion of our creativity.
I don't see Kagawa having a future at Man Utd under David Moyes. Moyes doesn't seem to see Kagawa as one of 'his' players. Kagawa isn't cut the slack to play himself into form or demonstrate his capabilities under Moyes. Further, Moyes seems to have no use for him other than as a makeshift wide left, a position in which he has other options more suited to that role. Kagawa is one of a number of players I see leaving United either next January or next summer.
So a potentially fantastic player for United to be sold because the manager is a dinosaur when it comes to footballing strategy? And Chicharito can't be happy either.
The reason being that many of the decisions being taken by Moyes defy logic. He first spents 27m whose not particularly good in anything apart from heading the ball and then he gives games to every average player at OT while giving good players like Kagawa, Fabio, Zaha and Chicarito the cold shoulder. If the system worked then well and good. I mean I still cant believe how can anyone allow Ronaldo to leave and replace him with Valencia. However honours kept flowing in. However in this case things are NOT working well and the team is screaming for some creativity. Does Moyes hate talent by any chance?
He plays one position well. That's where Rooney plays. Sometimes you just have to realize its not working. We'd be better off selling and using the money to buy a holding midfielder. We are a wildly unbalanced team and we have a number 10 rotting in the bench. No need for it.
Aye, that's why he's playing Januzaj.
Fellaini for me was a good buy, there're two camps right now, pro and anti Fellaini, I'm in the former one. Why doesn't he play Kagawa? I don't know, I'd have dropped Rooney to give him a chance of playing behind Robin. Why he doesn't play Zaha? feck knows, I wouldn't put Zaha ahead of Januzaj or Nani at the moment anyway. Chicharito? I feel for him as much as I feel for Kagawa, but as it stands now, it seems like Robin and Rooney are both undroppable.
But again, I'm saying that in order to claim that Kagawa should play ( with which I agree ) you don't have to lash out at Fellaini.
It's frustrating for everyone concerned. He needs games to prove himself, but Moyes doesn't seem convinced by him. Sooner or later we're gonna have to throw him in the deep end again. He could have been one of the right subs for us today. If Rooney had to come off then a positive change in the same position is a gamble we could have taken. He has the ability to retain possession and look to create chances up front. He might have helped us to see out the game or kill it off.
But it's all hypothetical now. Our tactics in the final stages failed badly.
But it's all hypothetical now. Our tactics in the final stages failed badly.
What you think that Fellaini was a good buy so the least said the better.
You do notice that we cant play Januzaj week in week out don't you? Now Young had played 5 games this season while Zaha have played just 2. Giggs has played 6 games, while Kagawa played 4, Buttner played 2 games, Fabio just 1
Please do try to explain that to me.
Yea mate that's a great argument.
Now go and complain that de Gea's getting more time on the pitch than Kagawa.
Thing is even if you use an average position thing it doesn't tell the full story. Rooney doesn't play that role like his compatriots are the clubs around us, ozil, silva, oscar, Eriksen. He'll get more goals than them because he's a better goal scorer but they'll likely get more assists. But that isn't even the issue. Rooney in that role doesn't really attack through the middle. He's capable of it but in general he will get the ball with his back to goal and more often than not spread it wide, he will rarely turn and run with it, and he doesn't put people through as often, partly for me because he's usually ahead of say nani/the other winger so they can't make an inside run quick enough.
Where as those other players will start a bit deeper and usually come on to the ball facing goal. It opens up different passing options for them and lets them run at people. They will come shorter for the ball more often to help alleviate the pressure on the midfielders.
I think if we had done better buisness in the summer and we had a proper quality partner for Carrick it wouldn't be such an issue, but at the moment I think they need a 3rd guy helping them out, and whilst Rooney clearly works hard I think sometimes it would be good just to have someone who will more happily play from a deeper position, Rooney clearly wants to ensure he's in the goals.
Whether Kagawa is the answer remains to be seen, I don't see why he couldn't be, he's not disappointed in the middle for us so far from what I can remember and clearly has good form there with Dortmund. Rooney of course is playing very well but maybe someone like Kagawa might make the team as a whole play a bit better. If Kagawa isn't up to it though maybe we need to find someone who is.
Hard to say but we really aren't controlling games well enough atm, and someone playing closer to the midfielders than RVP might help that, if Rooney's willing to do that, that's great, if not and we keep it as it is then things might stay tough until January and even longer if we don't sign anyone. But can't help but feel that it will be sad if we don't give Kagawa a run their, as I said maybe he personally wouldn't have the impact that RVP/Rooney do, but maybe he could help bring the best out of others in the team.
Still shouldn't go to ott. Helping out the midfielders is an issue but sorting the general defending out, sorting carricks midfield partner out and getting both rooney and rvp fully fit, which in rvp's case I don't think he is are probably more pressing concerns.
Where as those other players will start a bit deeper and usually come on to the ball facing goal. It opens up different passing options for them and lets them run at people. They will come shorter for the ball more often to help alleviate the pressure on the midfielders.
I think if we had done better buisness in the summer and we had a proper quality partner for Carrick it wouldn't be such an issue, but at the moment I think they need a 3rd guy helping them out, and whilst Rooney clearly works hard I think sometimes it would be good just to have someone who will more happily play from a deeper position, Rooney clearly wants to ensure he's in the goals.
Whether Kagawa is the answer remains to be seen, I don't see why he couldn't be, he's not disappointed in the middle for us so far from what I can remember and clearly has good form there with Dortmund. Rooney of course is playing very well but maybe someone like Kagawa might make the team as a whole play a bit better. If Kagawa isn't up to it though maybe we need to find someone who is.
Hard to say but we really aren't controlling games well enough atm, and someone playing closer to the midfielders than RVP might help that, if Rooney's willing to do that, that's great, if not and we keep it as it is then things might stay tough until January and even longer if we don't sign anyone. But can't help but feel that it will be sad if we don't give Kagawa a run their, as I said maybe he personally wouldn't have the impact that RVP/Rooney do, but maybe he could help bring the best out of others in the team.
Still shouldn't go to ott. Helping out the midfielders is an issue but sorting the general defending out, sorting carricks midfield partner out and getting both rooney and rvp fully fit, which in rvp's case I don't think he is are probably more pressing concerns.
He's also the main reasons our attacks break down and why we lack creativity in our attacks. Rooney's not a number 10, so we should stop pretending he is one and give a proper number 10 a chance.
That's the key though, a player like him should have a place in the team. Look at the creative players the teams around us has in offensive positions. Rooney started the season off well, but he's been poor since and RvP hasn't kicked off this season, largely because of no service at all. Why not give Kagawa a go in his best position and see what happens? Worst case scenario, he's as poor as Rooney was today.
#FreeKagawa
WTF does De Gea has got to do with this? De Gea is a fecking keeper. We're talking about the midfield area? Or maybe Fellaini could cover the GK's role? To be fair he did a better job at Everton when he was moved 'out of position' where his role was mainly that of heading the ball and knocking people out with his elbows.
You do notice that we cant play Januzaj week in week out don't you? Now Young had played 5 games this season while Zaha have played just 2. Giggs has played 6 games, while Kagawa has played 4, Buttner played 2 games, Fabio just 1
Please do try to explain that to me
I've given up over kagawa, he didn't fit into the team under Fergie, and it is even worse under Moyes, who doesn't rate him at all. I would prefer if we used him in a deal to get Gundogan from Dortmund.
Kagawa in the middle > Kagawa creates changes > Take some chances and we win games > Winning games wins trophies > Winning games is not a Moyes tactic, rather avoid defeat > So sell Kagawa and sign Baines
And what the feck does Fellaini got to do with Kagawa not playing? Do we play Fellaini in the fecking #10 role, or at worst, on the left?
It's funny how you noticed flaws in your logic as soon as I used the most bright example I could.
Gundagon? Living in a dream world there I'm sad to say
Kagawa is creative something we lack. Its amazing how Moyes can totally ignore this player when on the other hand he keeps insisting on a midfielder who time and time again is bringing nothing on the table. Its a matter of different weights and measures.
Unfortunately Kagawa is not a one off case. Buttner being preferred to Fabio, Rio, Young and Giggs getting so many games, Welbeck being preferred to Chicarito and Kagawa the list go on and on.
Yes, he should. But if you read the comments here, you'd think we were worshiping at Kagaw's feet for wanting him to get a chance to prove his worth.
I don't think he's going to. So, cut the loses and move on
When are people gonna stop believing in this myth?! Just because Kagawa didn't single-handedly turn the league up-side-down, it doesn't mean he didn't fit into the team.
- He started roughly 75% of the PL games when he wasn't injured.
- He had roughly 90% passing accuracy(only Scholes did better).
- He was the player in the team with the highest average number of key passes per game.
- He had the 4th best goals/assist ratio, only surpassed by 3 strikers(RVP, Hernandez, Rooney).
But yeah, he was a total misfit under Fergie... His current situation was only to be expected...
I feel utterly sorry for this chap. Don't know what he has done wrong in training or whatever, but he must be looking at the players and the results and be thinking he needs to get out...and who can blame him.
He seems like a nice bloke so I hope we do sell him and he goes on to show Moyes what a clueless cnut he is!
He seems like a nice bloke so I hope we do sell him and he goes on to show Moyes what a clueless cnut he is!
We had posters earlier suggesting that moyes coming in would be a good news for him. How he would settle into moyes plans. Moyes has history of using players like him.It didn't workout.
Fellaini comes in and again poster said how kagawa would fit in with fellaini and carrick providing extra protection.I just don't think moyes has any plans for him, except to shift him. That is why I don't obsess over his exclusion anymore. He is a goner. Mad winger seems a tad too emotional, he can use calming down. Acceptance is the first step.
Fellaini comes in and again poster said how kagawa would fit in with fellaini and carrick providing extra protection.I just don't think moyes has any plans for him, except to shift him. That is why I don't obsess over his exclusion anymore. He is a goner. Mad winger seems a tad too emotional, he can use calming down. Acceptance is the first step.
If Kagawa leaves I'll be gutted. World Class creative midfield player, and we need a world class creative midfield player. Moyes is a feck up.
I'd be equally emotional if we had Mata/Silva/Oscar/Özil or any other brilliant no.10 in our team and didn't play him. My emotional "outbursts" have very little to do with Kagawa the player, but rather the fact that Moyes choose to not play the type of classy player we need. I care about the team. That's why I want Kagawa to play.
Yup, I'm in the same boat. Was dying to see him become a success for us as he is a brilliant player, and great to watch at his best, but I've come to accept that Moyes has absolutely no plans for him. Now I don't ever expect him to play really, and am happy seeing Januzaj and Nani start as they are both potentially great players who are exciting to watch. I just don't ever want to see Young play for United again. He's useless. Use Valencia as a rotation option, and have Januzaj and Nani as the main wingers and I'll be fine for this season. I just hope Kagawa leaves in January, for his sake. He deserves to be playing week in week out for a top team.
I would be much more happy to cut the loses with Moyes, than with Kagawa or Chicharito (not his thread but the exact same situation).
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