Given his free role today, I thought he was decent.
He'll come good eventually - just needs games, that's all.
He'll come good eventually - just needs games, that's all.
Shinji Kagawa
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
Were we really playing so poor that Kagawa is considered one of the three best (nominated alongside Rooney and Januzaj)?
Yes, we were that poor. Rooney was easily our MOTM today. None of our defenders deserves a mention after that horrendous first half. DDG did well, but he could have done more to stop that freekick(though that's nitpicking). Cleverley was bad. Nani was bad. RVP was completely invisible apart from his goal.
Kagawa had a decent first half. I thought he was our second best player. He disappeared in the second half, though. There's no way in hell he's MOTM, but I can definitely understand it if he made the top 3, considering how bad we played overall..
I actually thought he was pretty good in the first half. Created lots of half chances when every other player just pinged it wide. He's a risk taker, so not always going to work, but he'll get you chances, and that's his job.
played alright today - faded in the second half but there were short spells where he was passing really well in the middle
needs a few more games
needs a few more games
He was fecking useless. Looked completely lost out there. His reluctance to move with the ball fecked us up quite a few times.
Maybe he wasn't as bad as I thought. I'm usually a big Kagawa fan, but I just didn't see him create anything today. DDG would've been a much more obvious choice for MOTM for me, but that's going off-topic I guess.
He was decent at best. Nowhere hear our worst, but after a decent start he was a little ineffective in the second half. Doesn't help him when the rest are so static and nobody is moving around. Still hope he starts next weekend on one wing, with januzaj on the other.
Him and Rooney were the most active. Problem was them getting in each other's way. Just need better
understanding to make space when he moves centrally.
He didn't light it up but was pretty decent IMO.
understanding to make space when he moves centrally.
He didn't light it up but was pretty decent IMO.
That's a bit harsh. He doesn't like the wide role much and keeps drifting inside, with the result that he's occupying the same are of the pitch that Rooney roams in. Kagawa would benefit from playing in front of a good defensive midfielder; someone who can break up opposition attacks in their own half. It's a system we no longer play but, for argument's sake, can you imagine the sort of service Kagawa would get having, say, Roy Keane behind him drawing off opposing midfielders and defenders?
Was decent today but faded towards the end. I suppose playing two full matches in a week that could be forgiven (sort of). Seems like we need to be getting the ball to him more often and have him play between the lines. So many times we have 3 players in the opposition box and Carrick about 30 yards behind them with only a pass to the wings available.
He's seriously struggling with the physicality of the league at the moment. Midweek we saw what he can do when given time and space, but those days are few and far between in the Premiership. More or less every time he received the ball today he ended up having to lay it off sideways to his team mate. He really needed to back up his midweek performance with another display today but, unfortunately, he has failed to do so.
Anyone that is mentioning him as a potential MOTM is living in cuckoo land and, frankly, should be ignored when discussing Kagawa as they can't give an accurate opinion.
Anyone that is mentioning him as a potential MOTM is living in cuckoo land and, frankly, should be ignored when discussing Kagawa as they can't give an accurate opinion.
I probably can't give as accurate opinion, but would I make a valid point if I claimed that him and, for example, Nani suffer from lack of proper movement from their team mates ?
Pocco and akash02. 'The Kagawa Skeptics Panel' is complete!
Seriously though, I knew that you'd both enter this thread the moment Kagawa failed to stand out. It was inevitable, really.
Seriously though, I knew that you'd both enter this thread the moment Kagawa failed to stand out. It was inevitable, really.
Nani was far from great today, but he at least posed a hint of a threat with his running at players and attempts at crosses. Kagawa did sweet feck all and was nowhere to be seen half of the time. I actually think I saw him hiding behind their defender at one point when he was clearly the one that should have been showing for the ball.
It's getting quite tedious how people are making Kagawa out to be some sort of technical wizard that is let down by the players around him. He held the ball too long on most occasions and gave Stoke the chance to get back and organise.
Pocco and akash02. 'The Kagawa Skeptics Panel' is complete!
Seriously though, I knew that you'd both enter this thread the moment Kagawa failed to stand out. It was inevitable, really.
The thing is, if you read back over my posts in this thread then you will see how much I like the guy. I just find myself having to make the case against him so often because people like you are so far up his arse and aren't giving a reasonable assessment of how he did.
He was great midweek pish poor today
But you realise that bar that great cross to Rooney for the goal Nani has done far worse than Kagawa? Let's get real, if Valencia or Young had such game as Nani did today, we'd be on their backs right now.
Kagawa is not a technical wizzard, no, but he needs players around him to move. It's no coincidence that once we've had some movement in middle of the park from Giggs against Sociedad, Kagawa was one of our best - if not the best - player on the pitch. Pretty sure that Nani would benefit from the movement as well.
I ain't even using this 'play behind the striker rather than left' argument. We just lack proper movement off the ball for some reason.
Pocco and akash02. 'The Kagawa Skeptics Panel' is complete!
Seriously though, I knew that you'd both enter this thread the moment Kagawa failed to stand out. It was inevitable, really.
I also praised him after the Sociedad game and was calling for him getting more game time than Moyes gave him.
Today he was useless. Nowhere near the 2nd best player in the team (major lol
). You're calling for the dropping of RVP who did a lot more than Kagawa did.Actually, you don't HAVE to do this... There are players that I also feel like criticizing occasionally, but you wont see me spamming down their player threads with deluded crap. I'd rather compliment players when they play well, and ignore the players who don't. And if I have some issues with our team, then I'd rather take it up in a more general thread and post the team I currently think is the best, and why.
Scapegoating, consistently singling out players, and generally spreading negativity in the player posts, is cnutish behavior. Players should obviously not be protected from critics, but when posters like you nearly live in these threads, ready to jump out with your flamethrowers at even the slightest sign of weakness, then you have to wonder if you have a personal vendetta against the player... For someone who's supposed to like Kagawa, you sure are quick to criticize even the slightest mistake.
Today he was useless. Nowhere near the 2nd best player in the team (major lol
I didn't think Kagawa was our second best player overall. Only in the first half.
Ah, the classic example of "he scored, therefore he had a good game". RVP was way worse than Kagawa today. Had it not been for that goal(which was a sweaty pin-ball goal), then his performance today would have gone down as catastrophically bad. But fans like you will only focus on the fact that he scored, and place him higher than the players you don't rate, which in this case is Kagawa.
Van Persie hardly got a touch but managed to score the first equaliser and set up the second. I don't think he's playing very well at all but the service is very poor and there's nothing he can do about that. Kagawa got on the ball a lot and yet hardly influenced the play at all.
I must be the only one (aside from the obvious) that thought he was decent today, certainly not as bad as is being made out.
Seems like no one in the team really understands his game. Today he made several lateral movements starting from the wing to box but no one made the through pass. The likes on Rooney and Cleverley aren't really in sync with his passing game. His most threatening passes ended up being the reverse pass to the on rushing Evra on the wings.
It's good he's had a couple of starts in a row now.
Wouldn't be a bad shout to give him Tuesday as well. A real run of games to get into some indispensable form.
Wouldn't be a bad shout to give him Tuesday as well. A real run of games to get into some indispensable form.
I'm still waiting to see him be the player I'm told he is. He wasn't bad, but I'm still not sure why I should be demanding he be an automatic starter, or even why he should be playing at #10, rather than Rooney. I guess that's the problem with the great expectations that some fans raise, I keep expecting something.
Shinji's problem is that he's at his best on the counter and when the team is playing with a lot more pace. He can slip intelligent through balls and open up defenses.
In a game like today when we are not playing with a high tempo which allows opposition defenses ample time to get 10 men behind the ball, he struggles to find the space to do that.
Essentially I think this is what Kagawa's problem has been at United. We don't play the kind of high tempo game that made him a success in Dortmund.
In a game like today when we are not playing with a high tempo which allows opposition defenses ample time to get 10 men behind the ball, he struggles to find the space to do that.
Essentially I think this is what Kagawa's problem has been at United. We don't play the kind of high tempo game that made him a success in Dortmund.
How long was he actually top top class at Dortmund?
I watched about 20 full Kagawa games when he played for Dortmund. I also know several Dortmund fans personally(relatives etc). Based on this, I'd say Kagawa's Dortmund spell went this way:
Autumn 2010: Brilliant. One of the stand out players.
Spring 2011: Injured almost the entire time(broke a bone in his foot).
Autumn 2011: Good. Not as good as his first season, but still very useful.
Spring 2012: Brilliant(World Class according to many). His best period by far.
Get of your high ground ffs. 'Fans like you'
I can't think of anything Kagawa did today that stood out in way whereas RVP got a goal, got the assist for the 2nd and there was another nice turn in the first half that almost created a goal. RVP was better.
Kagawa had a better game than VP today, IMO.
If you truly believe that Raphael Honigstein should be considered as an expert for the Bundesliga, then I really recommend you to watch some German football yourself. Half the stuff this clown spouts makes me want to smash my head into the next wall. How the hell did he ever got his reputation in England I will never know.
Even if we assume that the level of defending is in average higher in the EPL, Kagawa on several occasions managed to rip apart the quality defenses of Bayern Munich, Schalke and Leverkusen or the ones of counter based teams like Hanover and Gladbach. Unless you wanna tell me that Stoke should be considered as a stronger defense than the before mentioned clubs, this argument has no meaning for todays performance.
Sadly Kagawa could not continue his promising play from the CL today. The biggest reason for that change was IMO that Stoke was simply way better than San Sebastian in the play against the ball.
The latter put basically no pressure on the offensive players and gave them a lot of room and freedom, which created a good fluidity in the play of United. They also had very little structure in their positioning.
Stoke on the other hand made the places tighter and made them actually work to get some freedom. Problem was, that there was not much work in terms of off the ball movement. The offensive play as a whole was very static. Kagawa simply struggles in such environments, especially when he is given the task to drift inside from the left. Did not make it better that he was overall even in normal situations poor today. There is still a lot of work to do.
It was more like
Autumn 2010: Great player for a young side that came out of nowhere.
Spring 2011: Injured for the entire second half.
Autumn 2011: Had a rather bad start (probably had a lot to do with being injured for half a year) started to perform on a decent level after around 10 games.
Spring 2012: Brilliant(World Class according to many). His best period by far.
Also what Sphaero said:
Honigstein really prodives little to no insight, repeats what Bild&co report half of the time. To say that German teams don't focus as much as their English counterparts on defensive duties is pretty ridiculous, a large part of German football culture is obsessed with (counter-)pressing and transitions.
I think for him, or any #10 to really thrive, they need a good #8 and probably #7 or #11 around them. I am not one of the biggest Kagawa apologists on here, although I do believe he could have a lot to offer, but I also believe that Iniesta would look much better if he joined Arsenal than if he joined us. We are very pedestrian off the ball and are not really a one-touch team.
He wasn't too bad, I was pleased to see him get 90 minutes.
Without doubt
Today RVP contributed very very little and looks out of form
As poor as he was he still managed a goal and assist - mark of a top player
Indeed.
RVP is not good when we're playing the ball for 1-2 min trying to figure out how to get inside the box. Have you noticed how he's not able to play a cross ball to Evra? It happened several times that he hits it about as good as a sunday league player would. NO, RvP is a pure attacking force who should only have one touch to finish or pass. When he's trying to do something clever he is nowhere near united quality. In that aspect Rooney is a better player.
Regarding Kagawa, I don't think he's anywhere near what we expected him to be.
Kagawa was just as poor if not worse then Nani, yet Nani seems to get a lot more criticism? Kagawa for Europe, not the EPL, hes been underwhelming in the league.
Bollocks. Kagawa was decent in the first half and mediocre in the second. Nani was simply braindead, his second worst United appearance.
- Status