Difficult to come into a game that we had stopped playing.
Shinji Kagawa
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Yes I know that, but the only other way Kagawa is going to improve is by become an authoritative figure down the left. You would think that Januzaj is enough motivation for him to get going. His touch let him down today, plus it was hard for any of our players to find cohesion when we were attacking in the second half. Moyes should have brought on a more "defensive" winger.
That's a flawed argument. I can think of lots of player who haven't amazed me when I've first seen them but went on to be a bit special. Just because a player bursts into the scene doesn't mean everyone has to be the same.
Today was one of the worst games I've seen of Kagawa because he looks on another wave length to his team mates - something that I believe will only come once he has a extended stay in the team
I guess he'll start against Sociedad. Hopefully he'll at least get a game in the AM position. The last 10 minutes in that position against Sociedad last time were brilliant, and just a taste of what he can do.
It's a shame that he hasn't been allowed to start in the AM position a single time in 16 competitive games.
It's a shame that he hasn't been allowed to start in the AM position a single time in 16 competitive games.
I don't know, when you look at how poor our midfield is at keeping possession in most circumstances, and at how risk-taking our attacking players are, it's not necessarily so bad having something different. And to be honest, when we do work it far enough up the pitch, he's always looking for the space, for the one-two into the box etc.
He certainly hasn't caught fire or anything, but I think people calling him or this performance "rubbish" are way off.
Even when Rooney is injured or rested, Adnan, Welbeck or Fellaini would be better options on his present form.
The key issue is he's the wrong player for the position we play him in. That's the only thing I can't fault him for. But when he's there it would be nice to see him take that risk or two. His performance against Sociedad from the left was what you'd want to see. He took the risks and wasn't always looking for the easy pass.
In the last 10 mins of a game, okay that's fine play it safe and do the right thing. But for 45 minutes, you have to go for it a handful of times. He didn't today.
He hasn't warranted a place.
I agree in theory, but Moyes has one big problem that Klopp did not have. The latter had the "luxury" of not having as much competition in the offensive midfield when Kagawa was struggling after his injury in late 2011. The only player who really performed back then was Mario Götze, who could be influential everywhere he was placed. The rest was mediocre at best so there was not much pressure coming from then.
Even if he would return to Dortmund right now he would find it harder to regain his form, because the competition there is now way more fierce than two years ago. That is also why I could only see a move in the winter so he would had time to become his old self so he could fully attack there next season. I could see some deals which would benefit both Dortmund and United in that case.
Regarding his current fate at United, he needs to gain confidence and start performing now to earn a run of games to get back into full shape. He is not doing that right now. Today he was simply poor.
We'll take the hit and swap him for Gundogan if you want?
You know what? I´ll bite.
A direct swap is very unrealistic, given that Gündogan´s worth on the market is currently higher than Kagawa´s and there is no guarantee that the latter returns to his old self. There is a scenario I can see that working, though.
IF Gündogan does not decide to renew his current contract until 2015 soon (right now most signs sadly point towards that), you loan Kagawa to us in the winter for 1,5 years with a buy option. In turn you get Gündogan in the summer for a very reasonable price.
You get a class CM you are crying out for seasons for a very fair price and we get a proven player back, which would probably make us even more versatile. Everybody wins.
Sorry for the OT, btw
.Really? I can't think of a single player in Dortmund's squad they should sell for Kagawa in January, not even Lewandowski.
/edit:
read your post above, I still disagree though.
I wouldn't assess him on this game. We know he is no winger and the way he plays there at the very least you want Valencia on the right stretching things that way and creating some space for him at inside left. With RvP and Rooney on the pitch he was bound to be pointless.
Can I ask why? I find the deal very reasonable. Dortmund does not have much risks in that matter because even if Kagawa does not return to his old self, they would not have invested a lot in him. They would also not lose Gündogan to a direct rival and one thing is certain for me. If he does not renew his contract until the winter break he will leave in the Summer. They won´t hold onto a player again. Lewandowski was a special case, because of his destination and that they had no cover for him. This is different in Gündogan´s case. Sahin has proven this season to be able to replace him as starter and as back up they would either go for a young talent or choose the internal solution with pulling Mkhitaryan back in the CM (which would at the same time create a place for Kagawa in the CAM).
From Dortmund´s perspective not a bad deal at all. Certainly more worth than a bonus of a couple of millions they would get if they sell Gündogan elsewhere.
Why are people talking about him going back to Dortmund with us getting a player in return??
After seeing whats happened to Kagawa at United, why would one of their top players take that risk?
After seeing whats happened to Kagawa at United, why would one of their top players take that risk?
Kagawa's level didn't just suddenly drop significantly for no reason at age 23/24. That's way too young for a player who doesn't rely particularly on his speed or physique.
Of course Dortmund would be delighted to get Kagawa back. Hell, he'd probably jump straigth into the AM position within few weeks, as a sure starter. If we could get Gündogan for him, then I think we'd all benefit. Kagawa would get playtime for a team that's better than us. Dortmund would get their diamond back and probably become even better than they currently are. We would finally be able to plug that gaping hole in CM. Win-win-win.
At least in the short term... I do think we need a player like Kagawa if we ever want to become the best team in the world. But right now, I guess our ambitions have to be lower than that. At the very earliest we'll have a claim to this "title" 2-3 years from now. By then we'll probably have ruined Kagawa as a player(if things don't change). That way, we all lose.
The way I see it, these are the 4 options we have:
A) Continue like we're doing now, ruin Kagawa as a player, not improve as a team, and waste our time.
B) Start playing Kagawa consistently on the left and hope that he at least becomes good. He'll never be world class on the left, but he might be able to become good. This will only improve us slightly, and Kagawa will be likely to leave us. At the end of the day, this might therefore also be a waste of time.
C) Start playing him consistently behind the striker. It's not a guarantee for success, but it's definitely worth a try.
D) Let Kagawa go, ASAP.
Of course Dortmund would be delighted to get Kagawa back. Hell, he'd probably jump straigth into the AM position within few weeks, as a sure starter. If we could get Gündogan for him, then I think we'd all benefit. Kagawa would get playtime for a team that's better than us. Dortmund would get their diamond back and probably become even better than they currently are. We would finally be able to plug that gaping hole in CM. Win-win-win.
At least in the short term... I do think we need a player like Kagawa if we ever want to become the best team in the world. But right now, I guess our ambitions have to be lower than that. At the very earliest we'll have a claim to this "title" 2-3 years from now. By then we'll probably have ruined Kagawa as a player(if things don't change). That way, we all lose.
The way I see it, these are the 4 options we have:
A) Continue like we're doing now, ruin Kagawa as a player, not improve as a team, and waste our time.
B) Start playing Kagawa consistently on the left and hope that he at least becomes good. He'll never be world class on the left, but he might be able to become good. This will only improve us slightly, and Kagawa will be likely to leave us. At the end of the day, this might therefore also be a waste of time.
C) Start playing him consistently behind the striker. It's not a guarantee for success, but it's definitely worth a try.
D) Let Kagawa go, ASAP.
Because Kagawa is a "special case". Signing a defender, central midfielder, or even a CF off them is different to signing a #10.
With option D you'd probably stop posting here so I'm all for that.
Two players leave Dortmund for a 'grass is greener on the other side' transfer to Real Madrid and Manchester United. Both have uneventful and relatively low key spells at the clubs. It's plausible Kagawa goes back, but it's pretty unlikely that it'll be at the expense of Dortmund letting another star go. They're not in that position where they're forced to sell now.
I'd probably become even more obnoxious, tbf
I personally hate people who say "I told you so", but you know what, with Kagawa I'd totally do just that! It would be so awesome if he went back to Dortmund and we met them in the CL. He'd tear us a new one, and people in here would lose their shit. "Why did we sell Kagawa!?!?! OMG!"
C or D
Because you never know what happens in those 6 months. I doubt you make less money if you sell him in the summer and if Kagawa wants to leave there'll be a solution anyway, just like there was one with Sahin. If Gündogan continues to struggle with his back problems, during those 6 months he might change his mind and choose to stay, to take the save option for another 2 years. Maybe it's a small shot, but he's just that important for Dortmund. Also you have less time to make a decision, to react on the market for a replacement. You don't want to sell a player and then start looking for a replacement, that's always a bad idea, you want to have the option to keep him, even if he leaves on a free, if you don't find anyone at all in his position. There's no need to tie your own hands.
I'd probably become even more obnoxious, tbf
I personally hate people who say "I told you so", but you know what, with Kagawa I'd totally do just that! It would be so awesome if he went back to Dortmund and we met them in the CL. He'd tear us a new one, and people in here would lose their shit. "Why did we sell Kagawa!?!?! OMG!"
Indeed it'd be awesome to lose...
If that's necessary for certain people(Moyes etc) to wake the feck up and realize that we need a different approach to the game if we have ambitions to become the best, then yes, I'd want us to lose against the very player we tossed out.
They've never looked as dangerous and creative going forward as they do right now and Kagawa looks far from his best, which he also only played for around 6 months. There's really nothing that hints on him being able to hit his peak again within a few weeks and even then it's debateble that his peak is really superior to Mhikitaryan's, who also looks like the perfect fit for Dortmund right now. Most likely it would take him as much time as Sahin to get back to his best and even then he might need an injured key player to take over as a starter in the team.
GTFO with your fanboyism
you are pathetic man with your Kagawa wankfest. You are the worst of all the different fanbois we've ever had on the CafGTFO with your fanboyism
Aww, thanks kouroux, that means a lot to me.
GTFO with your fanboyism
I'd arguably be equally active in here if we signed Özil/Mata and still chose to play Rooney behind the striker. Especially if their level dropped significantly becaus of this
I'd arguably be equally active in here if we signed Özil/Mata and still chose to play Rooney behind the striker. Especially if their level dropped significantly becaus of this
Unlikely to happen as both of them are clearly better than Kagawa.
Yeah, no.
Dortmund´s record transfer Henrikh Mkhitaryan currently occupies the CAM role at Dortmund. He does not only have a wider skill set than the Japanese, but is also becoming stronger and stronger, as could be seen in his last three matches (MOTM vs. Schalke, top 3 vs. Arsenal and Stuttgart). He is defensively and in pressing even stronger and will become a key player vs. the top sides. Kagawa would be a very good option vs. deep defense lines because of his creativity and eye for space, but the Armenian will not suddenly make place just because Kagawa returns.
There is a good reason why I would see a move in the winter (to give him time to regain form, while resting Mkhitaryan in league matches) as more realistic than in the summer.
What risk? Kagawa´s biggest problem was the RvP deal which put Rooney as his direct competition. Unless you buy an absolute world class CM in the summer on top of Gündogan, the latter would walk right into your starting line up, because he simply outclasses everything you have there bar Carrick, who would take the defensive part. For Gündgoan United would be the top club with the least amount of risks for him, because of their dire need of a class CM.
As much as I like Kagawa, Januzaj has more potential then him and has been amazing this season, Kagawa isn't a right winger so won't play over Nani/Valencia, and he's definitely not better then Rooney or Van Persie, so sadly I don't see a future for him at United if Rooney stays (hopefully). We can use Januzaj on the right and have them interchanging and it might work but I think we'd be better off getting a proper winger rather then use kagawa out of position.
At least you can admit it when Nani has a shit match.
What risk? Moving from a team that is regarded as one of the best in Europe to one who are under major transition from a hierarchical perspective all the way to the football pitch. Huge risks for top players to come into this and it'll take some serious confidence, money and negotiating to get the top players.
No chance will we get Gundogan in the near future, I'm pretty sure of that. Not even sure why I'm engaging in this conversation it's ridiculous.
I'd argue that I'm even more of a fan than most because of this. Being born in 1989, I've become incredibly spoiled as far as results go. The football we're playing right now is not good enough for me. I want us to play better, and I truly believe that Kagawa is the key to this. That's why I'm pissed. I don't care more about Kagawa than I care about the other players. It just so happens to be that we lack a player of his style. If we lacked a proper defender, you would have seen me in the thread of the new classy defender that we signed but didn't play.
I'd probably become even more obnoxious, tbf
I personally hate people who say "I told you so", but you know what, with Kagawa I'd totally do just that! It would be so awesome if he went back to Dortmund and we met them in the CL. He'd tear us a new one, and people in here would lose their shit. "Why did we sell Kagawa!?!?! OMG!"
You're not a United fan.
So you want us to lose just to prove your point that we're not playing good football?
Seriously, just feck off
I'd argue you're not, and that you come across as a hysterical idiot who seems to only care about Kagawa and not the football club you're supposed to be supporting. No player is bigger than the club and the idea of wanting us to lose to him if he goes back to Dortmund is bordering on retarded.
If his skill set is wider, could he then not play in as a winger?
Mkhitaryan - Kagawa - Reus
------ Lewandowski -------
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