That's harsh, he was an amazing player for Dortmund. He's a really good footballer who just doesn't fit in here at all, it's happened with top players in the past. I think a lot of big European teams would snap him up, including Dortmund!
Shinji Kagawa
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That's harsh, he was an amazing player for Dortmund. He's a really good footballer who just doesn't fit in here at all, it's happened with top players in the past. I think a lot of big European teams would snap him up, including Dortmund!
Since our style will undoubtedly change, let's hope he can start fitting in
He's a quality player struggling to fit in at his new club. Happens to a lot of footballers. Drogba was laughed at at Chelsea for a year.
Good for them.
He's flopping at Utd quite dramatically though, and still some people call for us to drop Rooney/alter our system etc for him, based on nothing but him being quite decent for a German club a few years ago.
Well its not Rooney himself but having two strikers, our midfield isn't good enough to support two strikers. if we got a world class CM in January then i think you'd find no one would care about Kagawa.
Rooney is influential by his individual efforts rather than his teamwork, as most English players are.
Yep wouldn't disagree with that.
Wouldn't be rushing out to drop key players or change our system for him right now either.
Seems like a very good player who is at the wrong club.
What? Rooney encompasses teamwork, it's one of his biggest traits, what other strikers would've laid it off for Valencia for the first goal yesterday?
And those people are idiots, as I've already said. I wouldn't call him overrated purely because he played for Dortmund though, he was probably their best player in two title winning seasons. We've had excellent players fail here before, it happens, but Kagawa would attract far more interest than league one teams!
Quite unfair to call him a flop. You just don't buy players, not use them and then label them flops.
The system change is something a lot of people have wanted before Kagawa came. And the reason people want him to play is because our football is a bit dull and he played a big part in a team a lot people consider one of the most exciting.p so it's natural for some to want him to succeed more than others. However, I agree that he has to raise his performance levels. If he plays like he used to for Dortmund we wouldn't be having all these conversations about his abilities and adaptability.
True, especially as SAF used him quite a lot last season, in his right position, in favour of Rooney. Clearly he had a lot of faith in him, unfortunately for him, Moyes does not.
I'm not even certain its anything to do with Moyes not rating him or wanting to give him a chance. The main reason he isn't getting a look in centrally is because Rooney has been far and away our best player this season, it would be madness to shift or drop him just to accomadate Kagawa.
I think Moyes is incentivized to keep Rooney happy, which unfortunately has likely happened at Kagawa's expense. Moyes needs to figure out how to utilize "all the tools in his toolbox" and Kagawa is at the top of the list. If not, I'm sure Klopp will take him back in a heart beat.
There have been chances to put him in that weren't taken though, especially a little early on. He's been left out in favour of Young, Welbeck and Giggs.
He's far too safe in the way he's been playing. Not really looking to try a killer pass but more towards looking to keep it safe and keep possession.
Yeah on the left he has been left out, but he often hasn't performed there which again isn't Moyes' fault.
I wasn't on about the left though, it was your comment that SAF used him 'in his best position' and that Moyes doesn't trust him - its nothing to do with that. Ferguson didn't have the motivated and in form Rooney that Moyes currently has, and in this form he's quite simply a far better option for the number 10 role than Kagawa.
Yep. It's not just about killer pass either. It's just about being as purposeful as he can. He often plays it back when he clearly has the ability to either turn his man or drive into space or pass it forwards to someone. He just looks.. Shackled. Which is more down to him not finding his feet and confidence at united yet. There have been some good signs of late , liked the champions league game.
Basically needs to be more aggressive and positive than he is. He's too safe and timid at the moment. He was great against sociedad in that respect. Always moving forward, always looking for the return after a pass, always quick in his thinking. That's what he needs to do more of.
Yeah agreed, I still believe when Fergie bought him he thought Rooney would be off, he just didn't account for the idea that Moyes would want to keep him so badly.
So instead of cutting the losses and accept a reasonable amount of cash for a player that obviously does not work out and is of very littly use, you would rather throw him into the reserves killing most realistic chances of ever becoming valuable for the first team, effectively lowering his value on the transfer market, wasting salary and wasting time of Kagawa´s career.
What do you intend to accomplish with that? Setting a sign? I´m not even talking about the effect such a treatment of a player could have to potential transfer targets, because they would probably think twice before taking such a risk and join United.
Oh, he knows exactly what reactions this would cause. Jürgen Klopp is an emotional guy who often wears his heart on his sleeve, but the latter only really occures in a match or interviews shortly after. In press conferences and planned interviews he is actually mostly levelheaded with a hint of humour and a professional in handling the media.
Seriously, am I the only one who sees a clear agenda in his words here? This is a player he let relucantly go because said player wanted to leave. So he uses an absolute predictable question by a British newspaper and tells the world and of course Kagawa, that he is still loved in Dortmund, extremely rated by Klopp and that the treatment at United is not favourable for him because he is played out of position. This is nothing but a exaggerated way to say that Dortmund is always open to talks if Kagawa decided to want to return and United is willing to let him go.
So of course you can´t take Klopp´s word at face value here, because he is anything but objective here and follows own intentions.
Well that would make him a cnut, because it's really not his business to talk about a player's role in a different team. That's basically Real Madrid style tapping up. He really shouldn't do that.
As I've always maintained he's not strong enough to play as a number 10 in the PL. He looses the ball way too often. He obviously has talent I'm just not convinced it's the right sort to succeed in England.
If we can get back what we paid for him or do a swap deal with Dortmund for Gundogen, I'd snap their hands off.
If we can get back what we paid for him or do a swap deal with Dortmund for Gundogen, I'd snap their hands off.
Kagawa's started 12 games for us down the middle and managed just two goals and two assists in that time. On the left wing he's managed 3 goals and 2 assists in 13 games. There's that one-off game against Norwich where he managed another two goals in 30 mins down the middle, but beyond that there's not been a whole lot to suggest Kagawa deserves a place there. 12 of his 26 starts have been in his favoured position and yet he's failed to get a goal or assist in 8 of them. He simply hasn't been playing well enough when given the opportunity, so he has to work himself back into form in an unfavoured position and adapt his game or he'll have to move on. Rooney's not getting dropped any time soon so Kagawa's going to have to show something special to knock van Persie out of the team. The one thing in his favour there is that in the three games (Everton, Norwich and Sociedad) Kagawa and Rooney have played together down the middle they've shown glimpses of a dangerous partnership.
The thing is that Kagawa won't magically come good in the hole either. People argue that our CM isn't strong enough to support "two strikers", which is true (even though it's not really true that we play with two strikers), but this deficiency will affect anyone playing in the hole, whether we're talking about a standard No 10 or Wayne Rooney.
We're having several problems at the moment: A back four that isn't up to scratch, wingers that aren't up to scratch and the infamously sub-par CM pairing. Given these problems I think it makes sense to try and make the most of the RVP-Rooney connection, rather than trying to make Kagawa click as a No 10. If he is do just that he will have to start playing a different game: The Dortmund "facilitator" who was so impressive within that particular set-up is not a player who will be of much use to us at the moment.
We're having several problems at the moment: A back four that isn't up to scratch, wingers that aren't up to scratch and the infamously sub-par CM pairing. Given these problems I think it makes sense to try and make the most of the RVP-Rooney connection, rather than trying to make Kagawa click as a No 10. If he is do just that he will have to start playing a different game: The Dortmund "facilitator" who was so impressive within that particular set-up is not a player who will be of much use to us at the moment.
Our style can only change if either RVP/Rooney change or play less...something I cannot see happening. Kagawa's success at Dortmund was largely based on playing in front of two central midfielders and behind one forward. Unless Rooney has a change of heart (again) and moves on, or someone gets injured or anything else, Kagawa isn't going to play in his favoured position.
Look at Juan Mata this season. It smells of the Kagawa situation and he just isn't anywhere near as effective because he isn't playing in his favoured position. For the last two years he's gone into double figures for goals and assists but suddenly he plays a bit less or from the wing and he can't influence games.
There is no fit in this team for Kagawa with both Rooney and van Persie. It's as simple as that. Hernandez is also a victim of their quality too because the reality is Kagawa and Hernandez on quality alone are worthy contenders to start games every week. However whilst the main two carry on scoring goals for us, Moyes will pick them.
Poor comparison. It was Mata's performance on the wings that prompted Chelsea to pay 24m for him in the first place. His average performances this season have a lot more to do with how Mourinho has handled him.
Kagawa needs to do well when he's given the chances, even if they are on the left.
There's nothing with Rooney playing as an AM and I am not even sure where this notion that Rooney and RVP playing together hinders us, comes from. Rooney's also a much better defensive player than Kagawa so I am not sure how playing Kagawa there would improve us at all
Kagawa needs to do well when he's given the chances, even if they are on the left.
There's nothing with Rooney playing as an AM and I am not even sure where this notion that Rooney and RVP playing together hinders us, comes from. Rooney's also a much better defensive player than Kagawa so I am not sure how playing Kagawa there would improve us at all
Playing left wing for Valencia in Spain is a completely different game. Look at Cazorla, he was often played as a right winger in his Villarreal days and often for Spain, but in England the man has been an absolute genius when let loose in the free role. Obviously now Wenger has about 3 players who do what they want.
But similar to the way Mourinho has handled Mata, the same can be said for Kagawa. He's not ever had that run in HIS position at United. It's intermittent at best.
And I completely disagree regarding Mata. The man looks a lost cause at the moment, looks out of place and doesn't suit the wing...in England. Watching the game yesterday, he was doing what Kagawa has been doing. Passing for the sake of passing.
Nope, the situations are very different.
Mata was dropped inexplicably despite being Chelsea's best player. And then hasn't been trusted enough by Mourinho despite playing well and been taken off early on a couple of occasions despite playing well. He's been much better than Kagawa in the game time he has had
That number seems very wrong to me... I saw a Japanese Kagawa documentary that was made right after the Norwich game(this spring). That documentary stated that Kagawa had only started 6 games out 12 in his favorite position. And since that day, I'm pretty sure that Kagawa at most started 1 more game in the AM role, so that would push the number up to 7 at most.
But the number is not the most important fact here. We have to keep in mind that every time Kagawa got to start in the AM position, he was either brand new to the PL, or coming straight back from an injury. It was the Norwich game that started a good run for Kagawa. Every since that day, he's been an absolute beast whenever he's played in the AM position. We're only looking at 4 games and a total of less than 100 minutes. But during these few minutes, he's had 2 assists 2 goals, and his overall play has generally been awesome. This is hardly a coinscidence either, and it partly proves that Kagawa will perform well in the AM position now that he's no longer new to the PL or lack fitness due to injuries.
Numbers and stats aside: we have yet to see Kagawa start in the AM position after he(seemingly) got enough time to adjust to the PL.
He has already played for us this season.
Who would spend money on him in January
Any club who doesn't want to compete for the big guns for his signature. I wont be surprised if Klopp manages to convince Dortmund to get him back. Quality players are in demand especially at knock down prices.
I didn't watch much of Kagawa at Dortmund, but his on-pitch personality since he joined us brings back memories of Poborsky & Cruyff, pieces that just didn't fit our attacking style or seemed too timid around their teammates to impose themselves.
Turns out he's not the missing Kagawa in our wheel after all.
Shinji-flop
There's some fickle feckers in here. Sickens me that United fans are all labelled 'spoiled' based on the ridiculous behaviour of a minority.
I'm actually interested in what you mean by that.
The scandalisation of one of our own players, and almost wallowing in his demise after a poor performance, is 'spoiled' behaviour.
God forbid that we actually hit a rough patch and disappear into the wilderness for a few years.
Yeah, I'm sure were getting slated for saying Kagawa isn't playing well.
Don't be so surly. It's the way the criticism comes about: emerging from the woodwork and slating him from all angles with petty, sarcastic posts that is the problem. Nothing wrong with being honest at all, but often the folk who come to the fore re: Kagawa have an axe to grind.
"Oh, serves him right from coming from everyone's favourite football team, like, ever, ever. I'm delighted he's a flop."
feck off with that shite.
I don't see a lot of that, tbh.
It looks more to me like some people are just tired of hearing what a brilliant player this guy is, with not much in the way to show for it. This thread is extraordinarily divisive. It brings out the worst in the Caf, IMO. The people to the extreme of either end of the argument make it difficult to have a rational discussion.
Whatever the reasons for it - and they've been done to death in here, so there's no point hammering them again - he's not performing well enough at the moment, nor has he done so consistently since being here. I would be amazed if anyone could disagree with that. That being the case, it's hardly surprising that people don't have endless patience for a player who hasn't bought much loyalty with his performances, is it?
As I've said all along, I think he's a super player potentially and if he was given a dozen odd games in a row to find his rhythm I suspect he'd improve massively. How can Moyes do that, though? He didn't sign him. He has no loyalty to him. To do it would be unfair to the players that have performed for him, like Rooney and Januzaj. What does he say to Januzaj? "I know you're playing out of your skin, but this bloke looked a cracking player a couple of years ago"? To my mind, if Kagawa does end up leaving I'll be disappointed, as I think he's a fantastic talent and, yes, I think we probably could have done a bit more to help him become a success, but the bulk of the blame would lie at Kagawa's door. Time to see his (metaphorical) bollocks.
I don't think anybody is coming across that way, you're just being a bit sensitive about any criticism of him. Nobody is delighted that he's not doing too great.
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