Shinji Kagawa

[Mad Winger]

to play Kagawa ahead of Rooney

That's the problem right there! Not Rooney himself mind you, but that way of thinking.

If we start to play Kagawa in the hole, it doesn't mean that he's is playing "ahead of" Rooney, but rather that our style has changed. He hasn't really replaced anyone. He has merely taken the new spot that's up for grabs.

what other alternative is there to get the best of him ?

To get the best out of him, or something that's remotely close to it? None. There is no other alternative.

I've seen countless Kagawa games for Japan and Dortmund, and this is my conclusion. He can obviously turn out to be good on the left wing, but he's only gonna live up to a fraction of his potential in that position. We wont benefit from that, and neither will he.

 

[kouroux]

That's the problem right there! Not Rooney himself mind you, but that way of thinking.

If we start to play Kagawa in the hole, it doesn't mean that he's is playing "ahead of" Rooney, but rather that our style has changed. He hasn't really replaced anyone. He has merely taken the new spot that's up for grabs.



To get the best out of him, or something that's remotely close to it? None. There is no other alternative.

I've seen countless Kagawa games for Japan and Dortmund, and this is my conclusion. He can obviously turn out to be good on the left wing, but he's only gonna live up to a fraction of his potential in that position. We wont benefit from that, and neither will he.

Yeah yeah whatever, it's just semantics after all. If the spot was up for grabs and Rooney not even concerned by it, how come he hasn't nailed it yet ? Obviously Rooney plays a significant role in Kagawa not playing enough as a 10. Last night being the prime example, Rooney off and Kagawa goes there.

 

[Theon]

100% correct. Amazing how people see Rooney as a No.10 in the same mould as a Kagawa type. Rooneys instinct is to lay ball off and join rvp in the box.

No one sees them in the same mould, just that they are competing for the same position on the pitch. In that number 10 position off Van Persie

 

[Mad Winger]

Yeah yeah whatever, it's just semantics after all. If the spot was up for grabs and Rooney not even concerned by it, how come he hasn't nailed it yet ? Obviously Rooney plays a significant role in Kagawa not playing enough as a 10. Last night being the prime example, Rooney off and Kagawa goes there.

Because there is no spot up for grabs right now. We're playing 4-4-2 in order to keep Rooney and RVP happy. It "worked" under Fergie, so in theory it should work under Moyes as well. Or at least that seems to be the "plan"..

I'm seeing clear signs that we're gonna crash and burn if we keep this up. We can forget about being the best in England, yet alone the world(which should be our ambition). We basically need to rebuild our whole midfield if we have ambitions of becoming the best in the world while playing with 2 strikers. Hell, even Carrick might not even cut it then! That's how far away we are!

 

[Aboutreika18]

Ditch the wingers and play a diamond:

Carrick​

Cleverley Anderson​

Kagawa​

Rooney RvP​

​

​

​

We actually had decent success with the diamond last season.​

Of course, with Januzaj's progression, that's never going to happen.

 

[Mad Winger]

No one sees them in the same mould, just that they are competing for the same position on the pitch. In that number 10 position off Van Persie

If Kagawa were to "take" Rooney's position right now, I'm not so sure he would end up on the bench. As of this moment, Rooney looks sharper than RVP.

 

[MoneyMay]

Ditch the wingers and play a diamond:

Carrick​

Cleverley Anderson​

Kagawa​

Rooney RvP​

​

We actually had decent success with the diamond last season.

Of course, with Januzaj's progression, that's never going to happen.

We struggled with the diamond. Without wingers, the two midfielders ahead of the defensive midfielder have to cover more ground when in transition defence.

 

[adexkola]

Because there is no spot up for grabs right now. We're playing 4-4-2 in order to keep Rooney and RVP happy. It "worked" under Fergie, so in theory it should work under Moyes as well. Or at least that seems to be the "plan"..

I'm seeing clear signs that we're gonna crash and burn if we keep this up. We can forget about being the best in England, yet alone the world(which should be our ambition). We basically need to rebuild our whole midfield if we have ambitions of becoming the best in the world while playing with 2 strikers. Hell, even Carrick might not even cut it then! That's how far away we are!

Ok, you're not doing yourself any favors here with such hyperbole. Get a grip

 

[Mad Winger]

Ok, you're not doing yourself any favors here with such hyperbole. Get a grip

What hyperbole? I'm merely pointing out the clear problems of our team. Even the worst top reds seem to realize that we're still far away from being where Manchester United ought to be.

Is the problem our keeper? No. Is the problem our defense? No. Is the problem our stikers? No. It's clear as day that our midfield is the problem. What I'm suggesting is to actually play an AM, instead of trying to replace our entire midfield with new signings(which Moyes seemed to hint at a few weeks/months back). Kagawa is the only player who realistically could take on that task, given his past experience and skillset. Adnan is still a bit young, and he's playing well as a winger, so there's no point in mixing things up there.

I'm not saying that Kagawa immediately would turn us into the best team in the world. But it's worth a try, isn't it?

 

[psychdelicblues]

Ditch the wingers and play a diamond:

Carrick​

Cleverley Anderson​

Kagawa​

Rooney RvP​

​

​

​

We actually had decent success with the diamond last season.​

Of course, with Januzaj's progression, that's never going to happen.

The diamond was ditched after United were 2-0 down at home to Braga at half time last year.

 

[Escobar]

I really hope Moyes can find a position where Kagawa can excel and find his best form again. He's a great little player. I don't understand why some can doubt him

 

[SirAF]

I really hope Moyes can find a position where Kagawa can excel and find his best form again. He's a great little player. I don't understand why some can doubt him

I agree, you could see instantly after he swapped positions last night that he created something right away. Some of Klopp's comments were a bit.. well.. yeah, but he's right you know!

 

[surf]

Played much better yesterday, especially once he went behind RVP. But he still has to be more adaptable because he's going to get a limited number of minutes there in a club that has Rooney, who is better, and Januzaj, who Moyes says will be a 10.

 

[antohan]

No one sees them in the same mould, just that they are competing for the same position on the pitch. In that number 10 position off Van Persie

It's not the same position or No. 10 role, one is indeed playing off van Persie as a withdrawn/support striker while the other is mainly concerned with the business of building up play and linking midfield and forward line. The latter is what we distinctly lack.

I do have misgivings about losing what Rooney contributes overall with his workrate (or worse, playing as the only striker still tracking back to a fullback role), which is were a wing role as a better Welbeck would be an option, but all this zombie passing stuff is a direct result of a terminal breakdown in our transition. And, again, if all we will do is switch it wide for a cross, we are better off with Chicha as one of the two strikers. Whichever way you look at it, playing both Rooney and RvP upfront and centrally is going for firepower that will not get appropriately serviced, which defeats the purpose. Yes, I know, worked well last week, but Fulham were dogshite.

 

[Salfordlad70]

Played much better yesterday, especially once he went behind RVP. But he still has to be more adaptable because he's going to get a limited number of minutes there in a club that has Rooney, who is better, and Januzaj, who Moyes says will be a 10.

In a nutshell!! He's a number 10 and yet he is going to get limited time there, and so he must work hard at adapting to different roles within different formations.Last night, out on the left he, he whipped in a few very dangerous crosses and overall he was our most effective player and he has some momentum and Moyes seems to be involving him more and more.He can still rescue his United career.I hope so.

I am gonna get laughed at for saying this, but sometimes when I watch Kagawa, I see a little bit of Scholes in him.Very similar type of player.I think we'll regret losing him if we do although I don't expect that to happen.

 

[Mad Winger]

I am gonna get laughed at for saying this, but sometimes when I watch Kagawa, I see a little bit of Scholes in him.

That's actually not a stupid comparison at all. Kagawa has several similarities to Scholes. The main differences for me, is that Scholes is more aggressive and has a killer shot, whereas Kagawa has quicker turns and flicks.

They both possess incredible football intelligence and understanding, which is why they are so much more damaging centrally on the field.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Nani-----Rooney-----RVP
----Kagawa-Januzaj-----
----------Carrick----------
Evra-Smalling-Evans-Rafa
-------------DDG---------------

What have we got to lose?

 

[Dante]

The match, mostly.

 

[mlclauhk]

Kagawa's biggest problem is Rooney. Rooney, despite complaining about being asked to play out of position, has a free role in this United team, which explains why you see him in midfield (where Kagawa would be looking for the ball) asking for the ball (which he'll get) and spraying it out to the wings, so that he can run in to meet the crosses.

At the same time, the style that we play, is based exactly on just that, getting the ball, and spraying it out to the wingers, whether it's through Rooney in midfield, through Carrick, or via Rio / Vidic with their long balls to the wingers from the back... Yes, we occasionally play a through ball, but no where close to the intricate passing game which you will see from the likes of Barcelona, let alone Dortmund, the system which Kagawa was at his best with.

I think we can all agree that Kagawa really comes to life when he's in the no 10 role and there are two great examples of this season so far (one being the last game) where either, Rooney hasn't been on the pitch, or when Rooney has to play up top as the lone striker. Both of these occasions, he's able to show us glimpses of his former team's style, with flicks, turns and quick passes, essentially speeding up our build up, where there is a big difference to when Rooney plays, when he collects the ball, does a few passes and then looks for Valencia with a long square pass.

It's safe to say that as long as Rooney is at United, he's going to be starting and it's unlikely too that Moyes will ever tell him to stop dropping into midfield... which means unfortunately, that Kagawa, unless he reinvents himself as a winger, will continue to find it difficult to impose himself.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Kagawa needs to follow David Silva's lead

 

[Nathan]

I think Kagawa is making the most of his opportunities, he gets the ball, lays it off and make intelligent forward runs. He definitely warrants a place in the team. His selection the last few games have been totally justified.

 

[mlclauhk]

I think Kagawa is making the most of his opportunities, he gets the ball, lays it off and make intelligent forward runs. He definitely warrants a place in the team. His selection the last few games have been totally justified.

He's a intelligent, technical player that will make the most of the left winger role as best he can, but it's far from the style he's definitely much better at.

 

[Theon]

It's not the same position or No. 10 role, one is indeed playing off van Persie as a withdrawn/support striker while the other is mainly concerned with the business of building up play and linking midfield and forward line. The latter is what we distinctly lack.

Two names for virtually the same position on the pitch. Rooney is occupying the same areas that Kagawa does when he starts as a number 10, that area behind Van Persie and in front of Carrick/whoever in centre mid. I agree they play that position in two completely different ways, but its still the same basic area.

It's like having two central midfielders and calling one a ball winning midfielder and the other a playmaker. They both play in central midfield but play the role differently. It's the same with Rooney and Kagawa, they play in the same area off the striker but in different ways.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Two names for virtually the same position on the pitch. Rooney is occupying the same areas that Kagawa does when he starts as a number 10, that area behind Van Persie and in front of Carrick/whoever in centre mid. I agree they play that position in two completely different ways, but its still the same basic area.

It's like having two central midfielders and calling one a ball winning midfielder and the other a playmaker. They both play in central midfield but play the role differently. It's the same with Rooney and Kagawa, they play in the same area off the striker but in different ways.

The thing that annoy's me is whenever Rooney is injured or not playing, Kagawa does not get selected as number 10. Instead RVP will drop deep, or Welbeck will play there.

Since he has been at Utd apart from the first 2/3 games, he has never had a settled run at the 10 position.

 

[antohan]

Two names for virtually the same position on the pitch. Rooney is occupying the same areas that Kagawa does when he starts as a number 10, that area behind Van Persie and in front of Carrick/whoever in centre mid. I agree they play that position in two completely different ways, but its still the same basic area.

It's like having two central midfielders and calling one a ball winning midfielder and the other a playmaker. They both play in central midfield but play the role differently. It's the same with Rooney and Kagawa, they play in the same area off the striker but in different ways.

Which means it's not either/or in terms of personnel and player quality, but in terms of how you want to play and what you want done in that area of the pitch.

 

[Theon]

Which means it's not either/or in terms of personnel and player quality, but in terms of how you want to play and what you want done in that area of the pitch.

Well yeah that of course factors, but the major determinant is how good the player is. If Kagawa is an 8 at his style and Rooney is a 10 at his, then you would pick Rooney. The difference in style isn't enough in most instances to justify dropping the clearly better player.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

I really hope Moyes can find a position where Kagawa can excel and find his best form again. He's a great little player. I don't understand why some can doubt him

It's not about doubting him, it's doubt his chances of ever getting a run at where he'll play best.

He wasn't half bad on the wing the other night. But his display through the centre was great and he's light years ahead of himself when comparing his performances in either position.

 

[antohan]

Well yeah that of course factors, but the major determinant is how good the player is. If Kagawa is an 8 at his style and Rooney is a 10 at his, then you would pick Rooney. The difference in style isn't enough in most instances to justify dropping the clearly better player.

I disagree, it's a team sport after all, if one makes the rest of the team function better you take the 8 over the 10 that won't get service because the team is clueless what to do with the ball. I'm of course exemplifying with an extreme, but you get the point. For the record, I don't think Kagawa should start against Arsenal in what is effectively a 6-pointer. That said, I do think we need to have a run of games trying him as #10 and see what comes of it.

 

[Theon]

I disagree, it's a team sport after all, if one makes the rest of the team function better you take the 8 over the 10 that won't get service because the team is clueless what to do with the ball. I'm of course exemplifying with an extreme, but you get the point.

Aye, to be clear though most of that teamwork stuff is included in whether they're an 8 or a 10 - things like passing, workrate etc, so I wasn't just thinking of individual contributions like goals and assists.

 

[antohan]

Aye, to be clear though most of that teamwork stuff is included in whether they're an 8 or a 10 - things like passing, workrate etc, so I wasn't just thinking of individual contributions like goals and assists.

Wow, that's a complex multi-variable formula you use to arrive at Rooney = 10 and Kagawa = 8. I would swear that's roughly what you would get just looking at individual standing alone, although I'd say 9 and 7 then.

 

[Theon]

Wow, that's a complex multi-variable formula you use to arrive at Rooney = 10 and Kagawa = 8. I would swear that's roughly what you would get just looking at individual standing alone, although I'd say 9 and 7 then.

No idea what you mean here anto!

You were saying its a team sport and so you need to take that into account, so I was saying that I was when judging them as players.

 

[antohan]

No idea what you mean here anto!

You were saying its a team sport and so you need to take that into account, so I was saying that I was when judging them as players.

Well, firstly, there's not sufficient evidence to assess how Kagawa would work for us (or make us work) as a #10.

Secondly, despite getting up my tits at times, Mad Winger was in inspired form yesterday when comparing chasing the ball and chasing play. What Rooney does team-wise is more visible and obvious, and I've said myself it's hard to overlook its importance. Kagawa, in a few outings and not in the most confident form, has hinted he could offer far more to dictating and orchestrating our play overall. It just has to be looked into. If it upsets anyone that we try things to work out how we perform best they can go feck themselves AFAIC.

 

[Crono]

I'd like to see how we do playing Rooney on the left and Kagawa in the middle. I'm not convinced we'd lose very much from Rooney, who isn't a traditional #10 in the first place, who consistently drops deeper than he ought to in that position, and who 9 times out of 10 pings the ball to the wing rather than anything else; and we'd probably gain a lot from Kagawa who has looked a different player the short time he's been played up there.

 

[Hannibal]

I'd like to see how we do playing Rooney on the left and Kagawa in the middle. I'm not convinced we'd lose very much from Rooney, who isn't a traditional #10 in the first place, who consistently drops deeper than he ought to in that position, and who 9 times out of 10 pings the ball to the wing rather than anything else; and we'd probably gain a lot from Kagawa who has looked a different player the short time he's been played up there.

Excellent post.....
I dunno why Moyes is so reluctant to move Rooney wide left seeing that no player has really nailed that position. Valencia/Nani/Janujaz should fight for the wide right. Kagawa gives us a different vibe playing in the hole. His ball retention ability at the edge of the box is mind-blowing. Rooney gives it away too often & recovers the ball & then does something more stüpid the second time.

 

[Earthquake]

Also, is Rooney willing to play out wide, he bitched enough at the end of last season about being played in midfield, despite at the time saying he loved it because he got more of the ball.

 

[pocco]

Isn't it obvious what we'd lose from Rooney by moving him wide? Goals. Kagawa doesn't offer enough to justify sacrificing goals at this moment in time.

 

[Mad Winger]

Isn't it obvious what we'd lose from Rooney by moving him wide? Goals. Kagawa doesn't offer enough to justify sacrificing goals at this moment in time.

Debatable.

Kagawa himself is less of a goal threat than Rooney, but he offers more in terms of keeping the ball, setting up other players, and generally dictating the play. If Kagawa could reach only 70% of his Dortmund skills, then we'd still create much more chances than we're right doing now, and as a result: more goals for the team.

 

[Crono]

Isn't it obvious what we'd lose from Rooney by moving him wide? Goals. Kagawa doesn't offer enough to justify sacrificing goals at this moment in time.

Firstly, no-one would offer an argument for less goals.

No-one has a very good idea what Kagawa would be able to offer there because the fecker hasn't been given a chance. That "it wouldn't be enough" is obviously just your presumption based on the limited amount of time he's been played at United, mostly at wide-left, which can't be strong reasoning.

We'd probably lose some goals from Rooney, but obviously that doesn't matter if those lost goals are made up by Kagawa himself, along with the goals that would be up for grabs from the more creative football we presume could be played with Kagawa at #10.

It's absolutely stupid not to give him a run of games there, at least. It's what he was bought for.

 

[Crono]

http://www.theguardian.com/football...e-rooney-manchester-united-mesut-ozil-arsenal

New Michael Cox article - makes some good points.

Wayne Rooney should be happy Manchester United did not sign Özil


Sir Alex Ferguson's reluctance to sign the German, now with Arsenal, in 2010 has worked out well for the United attacker
While Sir Alex Ferguson's autobiography generally concentrated on settling old scores rather than addressing issues involving current Manchester United players – out of respect to his successor, David Moyes – one of the most intriguing revelations referred to Wayne Rooney's transfer saga back in 2010.

Rooney was concerned Manchester United were not signing the world's best footballers, and specifically demanded to know why Ferguson had not purchased Mesut Özil that summer. Rooney had first-hand experience of Özil's quality, having been outshone by the playmaker during Germany's 4-1 thrashing of England at the 2010 World Cup, a match where Rooney and Özil were essentially playing the same role on opposing sides.

"Özil was not on our radar. I said that to Wayne at the time," wrote Ferguson. "When Özil was at Werder Bremen he played wide right initially, then they played him off the front. That type of player was not necessarily on our radar. I told Wayne, 'Leave the signing of players to me. We've got lots of them right.'" Yet various sources indicate Ferguson had, at the very least, a passing interest in signing the German. The week before the 2010-11 season started, he travelled to Craven Cottage to watch Özil's Werder Bremen play a friendly against Fulham. United faced the Cottagers a fortnight later – but Ferguson rarely made opposition scouting trips in his final years as manager and surely had his eye on Özil.

The German later joined Real Madrid for a fee in the region of €15m, an amazingly modest sum for one of the World Cup's star performers.

Regardless of whether United tried and failed, or simply did not try hard enough, there must be a sense of regret at Old Trafford that Özil did not join. No one has recorded more assists in Europe's five major leagues over the past half-decade and his versatility enables him to play on either wing comfortably, as well as in his favoured No10 role.

Last summer's purchase of Shinji Kagawa suggests Ferguson changed his mind regarding 'that type of player' being on his radar. Kagawa and Özil are similar: lightweight No10s that drift into clever positions, often appearing languid without possession, but capable of devastating efficiency on the counter-attack. Ferguson wanted a sophisticated, direct, selfless No10 – perhaps earmarking Rooney to play the centre-forward role, before the opportunity to sign Robin van Persie proved too good to refuse. Kagawa does not quite possess Özil's incisive passing skills but his role at Dortmund was very similar to Özil's at Real Madrid and the United playmaker is more lethal in front of goal.

Both thrive when given few defensive responsibilities – Özil is not the type of attacking midfielder who enjoys dropping deep into the midfield zone to assist his colleagues' attempts to win possession, while under Jürgen Klopp, Kagawa's role without possession was similarly limited. He dropped back on to an opposition holding midfielder, before springing past on the counter-attack to combine with his wingers, something Özil did excellently under Mourinho.

David Moyes has a potential Özil in his ranks – but to play Kagawa in his favoured role would probably mean dropping Rooney, an unlikely scenario until Kagawa impresses significantly out wide. That is difficult for Kagawa, because Moyes instructs his midfield quartet to drop back quickly, shielding the back four – the more Kagawa does this, the less space he is afforded to create.

Özil, however, would instantly command a place in the United side – Rooney would be the most obvious victim. With Rooney starting his 10th season at the club in fine form, perhaps he should be thankful United did not sign Özil after all.

 

[Buchan]

It still makes me laugh that for Kagawa to earn a place at no.10, he has to play well on the wing first.

I know that is a common thing at United, but it's humorous nonetheless.