Shinji Kagawa

[Bross]

Disappointing offensive contribution from him today. He really doesnt seem to work very well on the wing.

 

[Kag]

Our best bits of football in any match tends to involve him to some degree. That was the case today. Says a lot.

Really, Moyes played for what we got today. I said it on the Valencia thread, today was never the day for great attacking play. We did a job and both Valencia and Kagawa did theirs very effectively. Now, if this was a different game then any criticism of the pair would be warranted, but they did what they could given their remit.

 

[Brophs]

I thought he did a good job defensively. He protected Evra well and won the ball back in important areas at times. If there were quibbles it's that he overplayed a bit and lost the ball in bad areas at times (that drag back on the edge of the box in the first half being a good example). He wasn't playing his natural game but he did well and stopped them doing very much from that side. When he went off I think Sagna got free for those two crosses, though that probably had something to do with them putting us under more pressure and Evra looking a bit leggy.

 

[bosnian_red]

I'm starting to think this. It seems he needs to be played in just the right position, in just the right system, in order to show what he can do. And it ain't gonna happen here for the foreseeable.

Yeah, he doesn't necessarily need the right system I think, but he definitely needs to be played through the middle behind the striker. Nothing wrong with that, but the signing of RVP and then Rooney staying this summer screwed him over. He's not cut out to be anything more then just a good winger here, but we have Januzaj who can become world class either as a #10 or on the wing.

 

[Devil may care]

His best defensive display in a United shirt, he played within himself on the ball and thus offered little in attack.

 

[pocco]

Was decent at positioning himself well in the first half, made it hard for Arsenal to exploit that side. Also kept it tidy and allowed others to pull the strings. Wasn't the same at all after half time and got worse at the half went on. His half started with him being caught out of position a couple of times and he then lost the ball a few times which took both him and Evra out of the game. No surprise he was subbed.

 

[Utd heap]

Earnt his inclusion in the starting eleven IMO.

Solid if unspectacular, pretty unusual thing to say about a flair player like him, so good to see a bit of steel in his game.

 

[Chorley1974]

Disappointing offensive contribution from him today. He really doesnt seem to work very well on the wing.

He isn't a winger, so we have a conundrum as to what to do with him. I think we need to keep him until Rooney is secured. Then it may be best for all parties if he moves on, we could do with the cash for a creative or box to box midfielder.

 

[manusteve]

He isn't a winger, so we have a conundrum as to what to do with him. I think we need to keep him until Rooney is secured. Then it may be best for all parties if he moves on, we could do with the cash for a creative or box to box midfielder.

I don't have a problem with Kagawa playing left side of a 3 behind RVP. It's unfortunate (for him) that Rooney is the current "No.10", but I think Kagawa is worth his place. I also have no problem with Januzaj playing there either. And in any team that plays 4-2-3-1 (Real, Dortmund, Bayern), I don't see much evidence of any of the "3" doing much defending, because they're primarily attackers. Januzaj isn't going to give much better "defensive" cover than Kagawa, is he?

As for selling Kagawa, well perhaps he may want to leave to secure consistent playing time in his favoured position, but for goodness sake we don't NEED the resultant cash to finance a midfielder - we aren't broke!

I don't see the players up front, including Kagawa, as a problem - central midfield is the problem (oh, and a left-back that leaves loads of space down his flank!).

 

[Escobar]

Like Valencia, his main job was to stop certain Arse players. He did his job well even though he could have been a bit more creative.

 

[Ekeke]

If Valencia had put in that performance he'd have been mentioned in the man of the match thread. The defensive side of his contribution continues to be overlooked because its not flashy

 

[Sultan]

Despite being here for over a year I still feel he has not adapted to the pace and physical aspects of the Premier league.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

Very disciplined from him today. He usually roams all over the place, which is fine in certain games, but he stuck to the left most of the game and stopped them being an outlet down that side. As soon as he went off, they started having alot more joy down our left hand side. He's rarely a threat from the left though, which is an issue. Everytime he gets moved into the middle, he comes alive. But with the way both Rooney and RvP played today, I don't think he's likely to get a game in the middle any time soon.

 

[MoneyMay]

If Valencia had put in that performance he'd have been mentioned in the man of the match thread. The defensive side of his contribution continues to be overlooked because its not flashy

Valencia still did a good job defensively. Tackles and interceptions don't mean that much. Our left side was open for large parts of the second half because of Kagawa...

 

[gasmanc]

I thought he put in a good shift today, looked after his fullback and tracked when required. He and Rooney interchanged well and there was the nucleus of a good understanding going on. He still has the odd careless moment in possession but there's certainly signs of this player we've all heard much about and seen in highlights for Dortmund.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Valencia still did a good job defensively. Tackles and interceptions don't mean that much. Our left side was open for large parts of the second half because of Kagawa...

Yes - stats are...stats. Evra too was brilliant in terms of defensive stats. More tackles and clearances than anyone. Which is great. But the fact remains our left side, him and Kagawa, didn't manage to contain Sagna very well at all. He was Arsenal's most dangerous player in the second half - and they have to take some responsibility for that.

 

[Ekeke]

Valencia still did a good job defensively. Tackles and interceptions don't mean that much. Our left side was open for large parts of the second half because of Kagawa...

Actually it was Evra out of position jogging back while they got an opportunity on the right, twice. Evra won the ball plenty of times, but I guess they dont mean much so being out of position twice means he was terrible? Giggs was on by then anyway

 

[MoneyMay]

Actually it was Evra out of position jogging back while they got an opportunity on the right, twice. Evra won the ball plenty of times, but I guess they dont mean much so being out of position twice means he was terrible?

You seemed to have forgotten, or simply didn't notice, that our left side was open for large periods in the second half. Kagawa was too central to help Evra. This argument about interceptions/tackles and comparing Kagawa's stats to Valencia's is nonsense. Valencia did a very good job of covering for Smalling and protecting the right wing - there is no stat for that. Kagawa, however, after an impressive first half almost gave up. I wish he was out of position twice because I wouldn't be debating with you right now about his defensive work rate.

 

[Kag]

If Valencia had put in that performance he'd have been mentioned in the man of the match thread. The defensive side of his contribution continues to be overlooked because its not flashy

Spot on.

 

[Ekeke]

You seemed to have forgotten, or simply didn't notice, that our left side was open for large periods in the second half. Kagawa was too central to help Evra. This argument about interceptions/tackles and comparing Kagawa's stats to Valencia's is nonsense. Valencia did a very good job of covering for Smalling and protecting the right wing - there is no stat for that. Kagawa, however, after an impressive first half almost gave up. I wish he was out of position twice because I wouldn't be debating with you right now about his defensive work rate.

You seem to have forgotten the part where Arsenal specifically asked Ramsey to hug the touchline in the second half. He's the man Kagawa was responsible for, whereas Sagna pushing past him is the job for the fullback

 

[Rossa]

If Valencia had put in that performance he'd have been mentioned in the man of the match thread. The defensive side of his contribution continues to be overlooked because its not flashy

That's true! Kagawa is our best player at closing down the opposition high up the pitch - he runs and harries them and leaves them little time and space. With him, Rooney and Valencia, there was little space for Arsenal to build from the back. He was good today, but faded quite badly before he was replaced. It seemed that both he and Evra ran out of steam. As for saying Evra left too much space down that left flank is only true for the last ten minutes. Before that, he and Kagawa owned that side and nothing happened. People really only see what they wish to see.

 

[MoneyMay]

You seem to have forgotten the part where Arsenal specifically asked Ramsey to hug the touchline in the second half. He's the man Kagawa was responsible for, whereas Sagna pushing past him is the job for the fullback

What a weird reply. You've not debated my point yet. Where was Kagawa defensively in the second half?

 

[Rossa]

You seem to have forgotten the part where Arsenal specifically asked Ramsey to hug the touchline in the second half. He's the man Kagawa was responsible for, whereas Sagna pushing past him is the job for the fullback

Either way, that only happened when both Kagawa and Evra were knackered. Evra needs a bit more rest these days. I thought they did very well for 80% of the match.

 

[Rossa]

What a weird reply. You've not debated my point yet. Where was Kagawa defensively in the second half?

He was OK for the first 15 minutes, then faded badly.

 

[Kag]

Sagna was free to whip in a cross in the second half on one occasion whilst Kagawa was on the field. Once.

A problem, a small one at that, arose when Ramsey pulled wider and Evra attempted to get by him. It took Evra and Kagawa, and probably Moyes, a little while to understand how to defend that tactic.

It's kind of sad that people feel compelled to criticise a perfectly decent player at any given moment due to some bizarre feeling of irritance due to a section of said player's 'support' on an anonymous Internet forum. It the same with players like Nani and now Fellaini. Their every move scrutinised and judged to act as some kind of basis for their original argument.

Had Welbeck played like Kagawa today then his thread wouldn't even get a bump. And had he performed like today, any posts of praise would have been warranted, just like those who are complimenting both Valencia and Kagawa for completely nullifying the threat of Ozil and Cazorla.

 

[George Owen]

Sagna was free to whip in a cross in the second half on one occasion whilst Kagawa was on the field. Once.

A problem, a small one at that, arose when Ramsey pulled wider and Evra attempted to get by him. It took Evra and Kagawa, and probably Moyes, a little while to understand how to defend that tactic.

It's kind of sad that people feel compelled to criticise a perfectly decent player at any given moment due to some bizarre feeling of irritance due to a section of said player's 'support' on an anonymous Internet forum. It the same with players like Nani and now Fellaini. Their every move scrutinised and judged to act as some kind of basis for their original argument.

Had Welbeck played like Kagawa today then his thread wouldn't even get a bump. And had he performed like today, any posts of praise would have been warranted, just like those who are complimenting both Valencia and Kagawa for completely nullifying the threat of Ozil and Cazorla.

this.

 

[Beachryan]

I can't tell if Moyes has Kagawa doing some incredibly advanced, brilliant strategy, or if Shinji just kinda does what he wants.

Multiple times in that match, Kagawa was actually in the hole and Rooney was out wide - particularly when the ball was on the opposite side. It made it really hard for Ramsey/Carzola to pick them up, because the Arsenal 'tracker' couldn't decide whether or not to come into the middle, or stay wide.

But, he's kind of useless wide-left in the final third. He doesn't have the pace to beat better full backs, so can only really slow things down, and tends to go backwards.

 

[Ekeke]

Either way, that only happened when both Kagawa and Evra were knackered. Evra needs a bit more rest these days. I thought they did very well for 80% of the match.

Agreed Evra played well, but it could have been costly when they got in behind him twice at the end. Possibly Giggs fault as I'm sure it was the final 10 mins when Kagawa had already been replaced

 

[Mad Winger]

I can't tell if Moyes has Kagawa doing some incredibly advanced, brilliant strategy, or if Shinji just kinda does what he wants.

I think it's neither.

Moyes is trying to use Kagawa the same way Fergie used him last season: as a left winger who's given a lot of freedom to move around. It worked out rather well last season in terms of goals, assists, and chances created. Kagawa completely outshone the other midfielders and wingers in our team in these aspects(seriously, no one came even close), and his overall stats was on par with Hazard, who got nominated for POTY.

The difference is that this is not last season and this is not Fergie. I've always thought that opposing supporters exaggerate Fergie's importance, but let's not kid ourselves: the man is inspirational as hell. If there's a coach in the world who can bring out the best in players, even when played out position, it's him.

Kagawa was initially signed to play behind Rooney. When RVP became available, things got difficult, even for Fergie. But he obviously knew that he had signed an AM who had no proper winger experience at the highest level(Japan doesn't count, because he's more of a left forward with a wingback behind him). He therefore knew that whenever Kagawa played on the left, he would need freedom to move. Moyes is not stupid either, so he sees the same thing.

It's a no-brainer that Kagawa is a very classy AM, able to cut it at world class level. But he's still 24 and adapting to the game. To kick out Rooney or RVP immediately wouldn't have been clever when Fergie was around(especially since Kagawa still did quite well on the wing). But now, things have changed. We no longer look threatening going forward, and the Fergie effect is gone. It's about time we give Kagawa a shot in the AM position, before it's too late. Letting him go might prove to be a huge mistake.

 

[Timdbro]

Sagna was free to whip in a cross in the second half on one occasion whilst Kagawa was on the field. Once.

A problem, a small one at that, arose when Ramsey pulled wider and Evra attempted to get by him. It took Evra and Kagawa, and probably Moyes, a little while to understand how to defend that tactic.

It's kind of sad that people feel compelled to criticise a perfectly decent player at any given moment due to some bizarre feeling of irritance due to a section of said player's 'support' on an anonymous Internet forum. It the same with players like Nani and now Fellaini. Their every move scrutinised and judged to act as some kind of basis for their original argument.

Had Welbeck played like Kagawa today then his thread wouldn't even get a bump. And had he performed like today, any posts of praise would have been warranted, just like those who are complimenting both Valencia and Kagawa for completely nullifying the threat of Ozil and Cazorla.

I'm another one who agrees with this.
How people feel the need to criticise him, either for his defensive display or for his attacking production when as a team we frankly produced very little in a very tight match, is baffling. He lost the ball in a dangerous position exactly once, and that was due to a misunderstanding with Evra rather than due to overplaying or being lackadaisical. Cleverley did more wrong than this in his first 3 minutes on the pitch, and yet his thread hasn't been bumped since the 3rd of November. Also, Arsenal produced one chance from Kagawa's side while he was on the pitch, hardly damning evidence.
And, going forwards, virtually anything of note that we produced came through him. Valencia was non-existent in that aspect, as were Carrick, Jones and later Cleverley. For all his running and industry, Rooney put in one good ball (the good corner), and was on the receiving end of one chance which he scuffed. And Van Persie, for all his class on the ball, was not very dangerous apart from his goal. Again, no one feels the need to criticise them, or say we should just sell them (!), and rightly so.

 

[MoneyMay]

I'm another one who agrees with this.
How people feel the need to criticise him, either for his defensive display or for his attacking production when as a team we frankly produced very little in a very tight match, is baffling. He lost the ball in a dangerous position exactly once, and that was due to a misunderstanding with Evra rather than due to overplaying or being lackadaisical. Cleverley did more wrong than this in his first 3 minutes on the pitch, and yet his thread hasn't been bumped since the 3rd of November. Also, Arsenal produced one chance from Kagawa's side while he was on the pitch, hardly damning evidence.
And, going forwards, virtually anything of note that we produced came through him. Valencia was non-existent in that aspect, as were Carrick, Jones and later Cleverley. For all his running and industry, Rooney put in one good ball (the good corner), and was on the receiving end of one chance which he scuffed. And Van Persie, for all his class on the ball, was not very dangerous apart from his goal. Again, no one feels the need to criticise them, or say we should just sell them (!), and rightly so.

Carrick's, Valencia, and Rooney have all been criticised for various reasons. Kagawa was criticised for looking poor defensively in the second half (at times) - there is nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of balanced views on the Caf, believe it or not. Also, how can anyone criticise Van Persie when he had little service?

 

[MoneyMay]

 

[Timdbro]

Carrick's, Valencia, and Rooney have all been criticised for various reasons. Kagawa was criticised for looking poor defensively in the second half (at times) - there is nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of balanced views on the Caf, believe it or not. Also, how can anyone criticise Van Persie when he had little service?

I don't have much of an issue with criticising him for flagging a bit and dropping in intensity as the second half wore on. My point was that defensively he was hardly the only player to make the odd mistake. And going forwards he also was certainly not our worst performer, the whole team produced very little. Yet roughly half the posts in this thread since today's match are negative, which is certainly not the case in the Rooney and RVP threads (haven't checked the Carrick one to be fair); one poster even suggests selling Kagawa for example.

As for how you can criticise RVP when he hasn't had service, I completely agree: attacking production depends very heavily on the team effort. Maybe your view is that wingers are less dependent on the rest of the team in that respect, but I'd say that it's also difficult for Kagawa to produce when not much is going on around him. Sure, he's not going to regularly push the ball past the defender, run to the by-line and whip in a cross, because he's not that kind of player. But then Valencia, who is, didn't do that either. Kagawa keeps it pretty neat and tidy, and if a pass is on more often than not he'll find it. He's almost always involved at some stage in anything dangerous we produce, which is why I personally value his attacking contribution.

 

[Fergus' son]

Moyes showed great faith in him today, I really hope Kagawa is a success here so was delighted.

 

[Ole240599]

What does he bring to the table? At present his form does not warrant a place in the squad never mind in the starting 11. The ideal scenario would be at Dortmund don't qualify for the knock out stages of the Champions League and we use him as leverage to get one of their midfielders. He is just not suited to the EPL.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

What does he bring to the table? At present his form does not warrant a place in the squad never mind in the starting 11. The ideal scenario would be at Dortmund don't qualify for the knock out stages of the Champions League and we use him as leverage to get one of their midfielders. He is just not suited to the EPL.

That's ridiculous. He's played out of position, which he's not suited to. Valencia can whip in crosses. That's not what Kagawa is going to do. He cuts in. Nearly every time he went down the wing with the ball, he was double teamed and he had to pass it back. That's what happens when a player is played out of position. The defense sees an easy way to nullify his play.

He's good player on the wrong team. Much like Berbatov was.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I don't have much of an issue with criticising him for flagging a bit and dropping in intensity as the second half wore on. My point was that defensively he was hardly the only player to make the odd mistake. And going forwards he also was certainly not our worst performer, the whole team produced very little. Yet roughly half the posts in this thread since today's match are negative, which is certainly not the case in the Rooney and RVP threads (haven't checked the Carrick one to be fair); one poster even suggests selling Kagawa for example.

As for how you can criticise RVP when he hasn't had service, I completely agree: attacking production depends very heavily on the team effort. Maybe your view is that wingers are less dependent on the rest of the team in that respect, but I'd say that it's also difficult for Kagawa to produce when not much is going on around him. Sure, he's not going to regularly push the ball past the defender, run to the by-line and whip in a cross, because he's not that kind of player. But then Valencia, who is, didn't do that either. Kagawa keeps it pretty neat and tidy, and if a pass is on more often than not he'll find it. He's almost always involved at some stage in anything dangerous we produce, which is why I personally value his attacking contribution.

I personally would be sad, but not averse to selling him off, same feeling I had when we sold Berbatov off. Brilliant player for a wrong team. He would slotted in perfectly in Arsenal's team. He is being played out of position and so were Smalling, Jones and to an extent Rooney. He needs to adapt. We've always liked playing games with proper wide players. He is never going to get a proper No.10 role here on regular basis, so what are the option available? You make the call.

 

[green demon]

I'm going to buck the trend. I thought Kagawa played quite well today, for me it was one of his better games recently. But he looked better when narrowing the midfield rather than staying wide but I thought his contribution was good.

 

[bosnian_red]

What does he bring to the table? At present his form does not warrant a place in the squad never mind in the starting 11. The ideal scenario would be at Dortmund don't qualify for the knock out stages of the Champions League and we use him as leverage to get one of their midfielders. He is just not suited to the EPL.

That's not fair, at all. He's a good player clearly, and he plays pretty well most of the time for us. The problem is that we don't settle for "pretty well", but to say he doesn't warrant a place in the squad is laughable and frankly clueless. He's a class player but just played out of position, and because of the options we have to play in his position, he won't ever be first choice at United unless Rooney leaves or one of Rooney or RVP pick up bad injuries. Kagawa was bought to play behind Rooney, but then RVP became available and Sir Alex couldn't pass up on that chance. Now he's left with having to try and play really well on the wing, but as a United winger, which is much different then playing on the wing for other teams he's used to. He isn't a winger at all, but he can fill in there, except at United they are more like wide midfielders rather then wingers you see these days in that they have to track back a lot, help out the full back, and stay wide most of the time. That isn't suited to Kagawa's game at all.

To say a player isn't suited to the league isn't fair at all, when really he just isn't suited to United. Wherever else he goes, if played in his proper position, he'll probably go on to become very, very good player, or even world class player. Won't happen at United though because we have already have a world class player to play there.

 

[kouroux]

What does he bring to the table? At present his form does not warrant a place in the squad never mind in the starting 11. The ideal scenario would be at Dortmund don't qualify for the knock out stages of the Champions League and we use him as leverage to get one of their midfielders. He is just not suited to the EPL.

I usually criticize him because all his fanbois annoy me but I think you just went way OTT here.