Shinji Kagawa

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pocco said:
I wasn't very impressed by that. He lost the ball well into double figures, you can just see all the same issues, even in this mythical Japanese system where he is supposed to thrive. His best moments came when Holland sat off. When he was put under any pressure he folded like a deck chair.

How the feck does Mad Winger interpret that as him 'bossing the game'? Makes you wonder if all these other supposedly great performance were also uninspiring.
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You're not impressed? How shocking.

He's had plenty of great performances for Dortmund, in the position he plays best. People have said he can make it work for Japan but he's still not at his best because he's not in the middle.

Mad Winger is being ridiculous, though. Wish he wasn't in here so we could discuss Kagawa on an honest level.
 
Mad Wingers claims aren't that 'out there' I find, it's more his persistance in forcing them on anybody who disagrees.

Not a great deal wrong with much of what hes saying.. some exaggerations but we see that in every thread.

Everybody is saying that we shouldn't fit our style to suit Kagawa and I can appreciate this. But our current style and formation doesn't work and is only there to accomodate both Rooney and Van Persie.
 
At the end of the day so far it has been proven that Shinji doesnt suit at system of wing play, its up to him to accomadate himself into our system as a wide left player and not for us to accomadate him, just like Silva did at City and Henry at Barca i.e changed their game to fit into a certain system, currently he has our best player in Rooney in his position and he has alot to prove if he is going to knock Rooney out wide or onto the bench

You can pull up all the great Dortmund plays and stats etc that you want with Kagawa but the fact of the matter remains that it was in a whole of league, in a whole other system, under a whole other manager and in a whole other squad.

I feel like the only hope left for Kagawa is if we sign a strong box to box midfielder, because like Fellaini, he prospered infront of a strong midfield that allowed him to do his thing, currently we need Rooney shielding our weak midfield for our system to work correctly, Shinji currently is too bad a tackler and too lightweight to play that position in our midfield on a consistant basis because our midfield isnt up to par, its not his fault it is ours.
 
Paolo Di Canio said:
At the end of the day so far it has been proven that Shinji doesnt suit at system of wing play, its up to him to accomadate himself into our system as a wide left player and not for us to accomadate him, just like Silva did at City and Henry at Barca i.e changed their game to fit into a certain system, currently he has our best player in Rooney in his position and he has alot to prove if he is going to knock Rooney out wide or onto the bench

You can pull up all the great Dortmund plays and stats etc that you want with Kagawa but the fact of the matter remains that it was in a whole of league, in a whole other system, under a whole other manager and in a whole other squad.

I feel like the only hope left for Kagawa is if we sign a strong box to box midfielder, because like Fellaini, he prospered infront of a strong midfield that allowed him to do his thing, currently we need Rooney shielding our weak midfield for our system to work correctly, Shinji currently is too bad a tackler and too lightweight to play that position in our midfield on a consistant basis because our midfield isnt up to par, its not his fault it is ours.
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Ain't going to happen! Plus if he's 'too bad a tackler and too lightweight' how is this our fault?

What's more likely is that he'll be moved on
 
I think Shinji's made a decent impression in his last few outings. Thing is, he definitely strikes me as a continuity player, someone who needs regular game-time to get into his rhythm. He's not of the Hernandez/Ole ilk, someone who can come on and turn a game on its head in 5 minutes.

I thought Moyes' recent statement about Kagawa hit the nail on the head. When asked whether Kagawa is better in the number 10 role as opposed to the left sided role he's been occupying, Moyes responded along the lines of, "I think he's best when he's on the ball." I've been harping on for a long while, as have many others, that when you come to United you need to be adaptable and perform in a variety of roles - reading between the lines, I think Moyes is expecting Kagawa to make an impression, irrespective of the position he plays.

Keep saying it, but if it's good enough for Mata, Cazorla and Silva...
 
Inigo Montoya said:
Ain't going to happen! Plus if he's 'too bad a tackler and too lightweight' how is this our fault?

What's more likely is that he'll be moved on
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Its our fault because we have such a weak midfield that we require it too be shielded by Rooney coming in and doing alot of dirty work, Ozil at Arsenal, Mata at Chelsea and even Gotze in Dortmunds system last season were able to flourish because they had players behind them doing alot of the dirty work
 
Can we give Mad Winger his own Kagawa thread to fanboi over, so the rest of us can have a rational discussion?
 
To be fair to Mad Winger he is just overly protecting a player who gets a lot of criticism right now. Of all the bad things one can do it must be the least bad. People over-hyping already hyped players or underrate already underrated players is much more annoying.

I don't think what he is saying is wrong in most cases either.
 
Annahnomoss said:
I don't think what he is saying is wrong in most cases either.
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At the end of the day, this is the only thing that "matters" to me. I don't give a shit if I come across as too persistent or just plain annoying. As long as I can bring some sense into this debate and set the record straight when things get out of hand, then I'm satisfied with that.

And people who think I'm always being too nice when rating Kagawa's performances need only look back to the Arsenal game roughly a week back. Most people seemed to praise Kagawa and thought he had a good game. Personally, I only thought he was decent. And that's not the only example either.

It's not like I'm blind to Kagawa's weaknesses or can't see it when he's mediocre or bad. It's just that I feel that he's massively underrated(by bagatalizing his Dortmund and Japan succees) and misunderstood(he's not a winger, nor is he the same as Silva and Mata). I also firmly believe that he has what it takes to become one of the best, if he's given the proper time in his best position. This is not an unfair assumption at all, seeing as he was one of the best players in the Bundesliga at age 21-23. To say that he doesn't even have the potential become world class then, is just arrogant and shows that you underrate the Bundesliga severly.

But more than any of this, I believe that we as a team would benefit more from a midfield three(with a proper AM at the tip), than we are playing 4-4-2. This is hardly a mindblowing statement, seeing as we're struggling to create chances and that our CM currently is non-existent in our attacking play.

If you find any of my beliefs above to be radical, absurd or just plain stupid; so be it. I will just gonna have to disagree with you then.
 
Your beliefs aren't absurd it's the lengths you go to to make sure everyone knows them. You don't have to respond to every single post with the same stuff. We know he was good in his 100 minutes in his preferred role. We know you think he's underrated in bold. We know he made 1.65456 key passes per half in Dortmund.

You said he bossed the Japan game, which clearly wasn't the case. You got called out on it and then told everyone you're this beacon of knowledge and everyone else is saying he's a terrible player. He really isn't getting slated in this thread at all. You just think he is because you love him so much. It's a bit weird
 
Yeah, MW talks so much sense, like saying Silva isn't particularly better at passing than Kagawa.

So much sense.
 
Steven Seagull said:
You said he bossed the Japan game, which clearly wasn't the case.
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As I wrote quickly after:
"'Bossing the game' might be a bit of an exagerration, but he looked really good and comfortable out there."

I only wanted to highlight that Kagawa can play really well against the best of teams, and I chose to include his game against Netherlands because he was in fact really good. Judging by the other comments I've seen online, the majority seems to agree on this.


Cina said:
Yeah, MW talks so much sense, like saying Silva isn't particularly better at passing than Kagawa.
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Granted I've seen a lot more from Kagawa to give a just conclusion, I don't think that Silva has been particularly better at passing the times I've seen him play(somewhere between 5 and 10 games). I might have been terribly unlucky with the games I picked though.

Look at the Kagawa through-ball from the Netherlands game. That pass was pretty much as good as it gets, and it's not a rare thing for Kagawa to pull off that kind of pass.
 
Kagawa looked a lot more confident and positive in that Japan game than he has here whether he's played on the left or not. The general consensus in this thread seems to be most people agreeing he is better centrally, but until he gets his chance he has to show more in a different position. I think he's perfectly capable of showing much more from a nominal wide position. You don't seem to think he's capable of performing. You shouldn't underrate him so much.
 
Steven Seagull said:
but until he gets his chance he has to show more in a different position.
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This is where I(and some others) heavily disagree. To me it doesn't make sense that Kagawa needs to perform out of position in order to play in position.


Steven Seagull said:
You don't seem to think he's capable of performing.
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Oh, he can definitely perform. But nearly as well as he does centrally? Extremely unlikely to ever happen on a consistent basis.
 
Mad Winger said:
As I wrote quickly after:
"'Bossing the game' might be a bit of an exagerration, but he looked really good and comfortable out there."

I only wanted to highlight that Kagawa can play really well against the best of teams, and I chose to include his game against Netherlands because he was in fact really good. Judging by the other comments I've seen online, the majority seems to agree on this.




Granted I've seen a lot more from Kagawa to give a just conclusion, I don't think that Silva has been particularly better at passing the times I've seen him play(somewhere between 5 and 10 games). I might have been terribly unlucky with the games I picked though.

Look at the Kagawa through-ball from the Netherlands game. That pass was pretty much as good as it gets, and it's not a rare thing for Kagawa to pull off that kind of pass.
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It was a good pass but "as good as it gets" is the sort of hyperbole about Kagawa that I never fully understand. Every good thing he does, you exaggerate them.
 
kouroux said:
It was a good pass but "as good as it gets" is the sort of hyperbole about Kagawa that I never fully understand. Every good thing he does, you exaggerate them.
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The pass had the perfect speed and angle, slid past 3 opponents, and landed perfectly into the strikers run. As far as through-balls go, that is about as good as it gets. Have there been better through-balls? Obviously! But they are rare as feck.
 
For whatever it's worth from RVP's Facebook "Shinji played really well v holland last saturday 2-2 unfortunately i didn't play but it was good to see my team holland and japan play some great football."
 
Mad Winger said:
At the end of the day, this is the only thing that "matters" to me. I don't give a shit if I come across as too persistent or just plain annoying. As long as I can bring some sense into this debate and set the record straight when things get out of hand, then I'm satisfied with that.
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:lol:

He was saying your points had a semblance of truth, not that you're the one bringing sense to this debate snd setting the record straight! feck me. You really do live in Kagawa fantasy land. The points you make are in no way enlightening and you are not some respected scholar on all things Kagawa-related, you just happen to be so obsessed with the bloke that you don't give anyone a chance to say anything positive about him. You take reasonable points that 100s of others have said about Kagawa before, repeat them dozens of times, stretch that point until it no longer has any basis in reality and instead reads like a love sonnet to your hero, and then ultimately create this atmosphere where it seems like Kagawa is getting criticised constantly because naturally people feel compelled to argue against your absurd points while the other positive views are drowned out.

Kagawa is very well liked by most United fans and he's been shown plenty of patience. If he does leave he'll mostly leave with good wishes. If he succeeds he'll have a lot of supporters saying "see, that's the player we knew he could become for us". You are not some lone voice up against swathes of buffoons who can't see Kagawa's quality. You just focus in on the small portion that do think Kagawa isn't all that good to convince yourself you're needed here to provide a balanced, sensible, knowledgeable opinion on the matter.

You make it sound like you're performing some sort of public service by offering your opinion on Kagawa. Get a fecking grip you weirdo.
 
Steven Seagull said:
Those passes are rare as feck. But it's not a rare thing for Kagawa to pull off that kind of pass?
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Learn how to read. I wrote that better passes than that are rare as feck.



Brwned said:
You take reasonable points that 100s of others have said about Kagawa before, repeat them dozens of times,
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To be fair, many of these reasonable points where brought up by me in the first place:lol:

The only reason I feel the need to repeat, is because this thread seems to go in cycles(and that's not just because of me). People either have short-term memories, or they're just massively misinformed. I cannot count how many times I've actually not replied to certain posts in hope that other posters are gonna set the record straight. But they almost never do! The very same idiotic and false assumptions keep popping up all the fecking time, and they're becoming more and more common.

While it's true that most United fans have a positive view on Kagawa, things have changed quite a bit recently. It's much more common to see Kagawa critics now than it was 6 months ago.

* Kagawa should be able to be class on the left wing
* There's no reason why he can't be our Silva or Mata
* The PL is too physical for him
* He was ineffective last season
* Fergie didn't rate him

As long as quotes similar to these keep popping up on a fairly regular basis, then there obviously needs to be a counter-part. Hell, calling me a counter-part in itself is pushing it, seeing as I mostly use stats, facts, and quotes from good sources, such as Klopp, Culpi, Zaccheroni, Fergie, Mitten and Kagawa himself. I even speak Japanese and have Japanese sources. But that's only a part of the story. Most of the time I spend on discussing how we can include Kagawa into our tactics and formations etc. But I guess that's bad as well? That's just blind fanboyism and completely useless to the KAGAWA thread?
 
Mad Winger has made this thread completely tedious, and I like Kagawa ffs.
 
Mad winger is officially the worst fanboi i've seen around here. Cal, Scholesy et al got nothing on this kid.
 
B20 said:
Mad winger is officially the worst fanboi i've seen around here. Cal, Scholesy et al got nothing on this kid.
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Hey, if people didn't attack my posts regularly right the feck out of nowhere, I wouldn't have had to defend myself i the first place! I like to actually reply to posts, you know. Even the stupid ones.

Ideally, 100% of my posts in this thread would have revolved around how we can include Kagawa into our tactics and formations, analysis concerning Kagawa's strengths and weaknesses, post-match evaluations, and useful interviews/stats/quotes. In other words; how a player thread is supposed to be. So what if I'm extra active in here? Is that a crime?

Brwned can spend his freetime looking through my old posts, picking out certain parts to fit his agenda, and re-post them to make me look like an arse. But as long as he doesn't post the whole context, it's pretty much a total waste of time. I bet I could go through a couple of Ghandi quotes, cut them in the middle, and make him look like an arse too. Context is always important.

And let's make one thing clear: I never insult or personally attack anyone unless they've done that to me first. And even then I usually manage to focus on mainly the message, rather than the insult.

As long as I keep getting messages from supporters, either from the newbies or from posters who aren't ready to speak up and put their head under the guillotine(understandably, looking at how intolerant this particular thread has become), I'll feel like I'm doing a good job.
 
Mad Winger said:
Ideally, 100% of my posts in this thread would have revolved around how we can include Kagawa into our tactics and formations, analysis concerning Kagawa's strengths and weaknesses, post-match evaluations, and useful interviews/stats/quotes. In other words; how a player thread is supposed to be. So what if I'm extra active in here? Is that a crime?
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That is actually not how a thread is supposed to be.

A proper thread includes legitimate criticism and allows for notions like: maybe it's better for the team if a player is deployed differently than what is ideal for Shinji Kagawa; considers possibilities that maybe he is really just a squad player at this level and most of all - takes his present actual level as the starting point for discussion rather than an idealised, even mythologised level of form he showed two years ago in a different league and setup.

You rubbish such proposals with rabid fervour and can't relinquish or modify even a little bit the ideal version of Kagawa in your head that he has yet to demonstrate in England. That is how fanboism in such active form turns a thread into wishful fantasy and away from the reality of the player's actual situation.
 
Mad Winger said:
Hey, if people didn't attack my posts regularly right the feck out of nowhere, I wouldn't have had to defend myself i the first place! I like to actually reply to posts, you know. Even the stupid ones.
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I wonder why it's just you that's regularly, right the feck out of nowhere, targeted, eh?
 
I think whomever the feck these newbies are that are encouraging this from MW need to be tracked down and shot to death.
 
Mad Winger said:
As long as I keep getting messages from supporters, either from the newbies or from posters who aren't ready to speak up and put their head under the guillotine(understandably, looking at how intolerant this particular thread has become), I'll feel like I'm doing a good job.
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Lets be honest. No-one thinks you are doing a good job, not even members of Kagawas family. If there are seriously people contacting you in some kind of demented show of support, let me please request the hundreds of people who read your posts in here and think you are insane, come out and PM MW telling him it's not appreciated and his "good job" is actually rubbish and not wanted.
 
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