It's not to do with the personnel we have, but the system. Swansea, Southampton, Everton can play arguably more 'attractive' football than United with the players they have. They don't have better players than us, and even if they do (could argue CM), they're not that much better that we can make them look like Barcelona when playing them.
Shinji Kagawa
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
I want Shinji to succeed as much as any other United fan here but the constant excuses are getting embarrassing now. He simply has not taken the chances that he has got and he got plenty of chances to play. If he needs United to adjust their system to fit him in or for players to bend over backwards so he can shine, then maybe we are better off without him unfortunately
I don't think anyone's expecting united to bend over for anyone. We were expecting to play a better, quicker, more modern style of football, and kagawa is more suited to that style then uniteds traditional style of loads of crossing and not much play through the middle. It's not a constant excuse, and there's nothing embarrassing about it. Playing 100 games won't help much either, he's just not suited to our style of play, which is probably more of a criticism of united and our shite, 1 dimensional play these last few years, rather then a slight on kagawa. I want him to do well but he won't at united because I can't see our style changing any time soon, sadly, so it'd be best for both parties if kagawa left as he's just being wasted at united so he could become a top class player elsewhere.
OK, let's look at what's happened here:
1. Kagawa is pretty much personally scouted by Fergie, who clearly rates him and plays a very important part in getting his signature.
2. He has a rather good season under Fergie, despite injuries and mostly being played our of position. Overall his stats are almost on par with Hazard, a player people considered to be a massive success. When the season ended, most United fans expected Kagawa to be a sure starter next season. After all, he was pretty much a sure starter already(started roughly 75% of the time he wasn't injured), and at the end of the season he was in fact one of our best players(in form).
3. During the summer Kagawa gets two massive mental knocks. First, his team gets humiliated in the Confederations Cup. Second, and most importantly, Fergie is out. The man who brought him to the club, rated him, and had big future plans for him, was now gone. In comes a new guy who he's probably barely heard of. He has to start all over again. Only this time, he has to play for a guy who doesn't rate him nearly as much as Fergie did.
4. Suddenly, he's a bench warmer, and that despite being considered the best player in training since Scholes(according to Rio). At this point, you have to wonder what's wrong. He ended last season on a high note, works his ass off in training, yet he's not even given the chance to play. His confidence is slowly starting to fade.
5. He finally gets to play a few games. He's a bit rusty, but that's only to be expected after not playing for a long time. He's also playing for a United team that doesn't click at all, and at the left wing as well. Still, he's doing better than the other wingers in the team, so surely there's no reason to worry? WRONG! He's taken off at half time, even when being arguably the best player of the half. At this point, he must already start to wonder what wrong he has done to Moyes.
6. People tell him to take his chances when gets them. And while he doesn't shine as much as he did last season, he's still playing good enough to start. Still, he never gets a good run of games, and he never plays in his favored position. We all start to wonder when that time will come.
7. He finally gets to play in his favored role. During those minutes, we play the best football of the season(vs Leverkusen). Overall, Kagawa does a good job in the no.10 role(though still with room for improvement). You have to think that this ought to be the turning point for him, seeing as he's playing well and all. But Moyes thinks otherwise. He consistently switches Kagawa out of his favored position or takes him off the field, even when he's playing alright.
8. His confidence is offically in the gutter. He gets some sort of panic attack.
9. "Still, my chances are bound to come now that there are so many injuries, right?", Kagawa thinks as he puts down the can of rat poison. BOOM! 3 games on the bench in a row.
_____________________________________________
The bottom line here is that's he's had a hard fecking time! Not only did he have to adapt to a new league, learn a new language, learn to play in a new position, and play for arguably the top team who's style fits him the least, all while battling injuries. He now has to pretty much create magic out of nothing everytime he plays, all while doing the same shit all over again.
At this stage, I'm not sure whether he hates or misses Fergie. If Fergie was still around, then things would definitely have looked much better for him. But if it weren't for Fergie being so convincing in the first place, then maybe he wouldn't have been trapped in this current mess?
I just don't see how he's gonna turn this around quickly enough for his market value to not go completely down the drains. Apparently, opposing teams and fans still rate him, so maybe it's time for him to jump off before it's too late? Dortmund is struggling in the league now, so maybe he ought to go back to them? That would be a win-win, seeing as we currently don't use him right anyways.
1. Kagawa is pretty much personally scouted by Fergie, who clearly rates him and plays a very important part in getting his signature.
2. He has a rather good season under Fergie, despite injuries and mostly being played our of position. Overall his stats are almost on par with Hazard, a player people considered to be a massive success. When the season ended, most United fans expected Kagawa to be a sure starter next season. After all, he was pretty much a sure starter already(started roughly 75% of the time he wasn't injured), and at the end of the season he was in fact one of our best players(in form).
3. During the summer Kagawa gets two massive mental knocks. First, his team gets humiliated in the Confederations Cup. Second, and most importantly, Fergie is out. The man who brought him to the club, rated him, and had big future plans for him, was now gone. In comes a new guy who he's probably barely heard of. He has to start all over again. Only this time, he has to play for a guy who doesn't rate him nearly as much as Fergie did.
4. Suddenly, he's a bench warmer, and that despite being considered the best player in training since Scholes(according to Rio). At this point, you have to wonder what's wrong. He ended last season on a high note, works his ass off in training, yet he's not even given the chance to play. His confidence is slowly starting to fade.
5. He finally gets to play a few games. He's a bit rusty, but that's only to be expected after not playing for a long time. He's also playing for a United team that doesn't click at all, and at the left wing as well. Still, he's doing better than the other wingers in the team, so surely there's no reason to worry? WRONG! He's taken off at half time, even when being arguably the best player of the half. At this point, he must already start to wonder what wrong he has done to Moyes.
6. People tell him to take his chances when gets them. And while he doesn't shine as much as he did last season, he's still playing good enough to start. Still, he never gets a good run of games, and he never plays in his favored position. We all start to wonder when that time will come.
7. He finally gets to play in his favored role. During those minutes, we play the best football of the season(vs Leverkusen). Overall, Kagawa does a good job in the no.10 role(though still with room for improvement). You have to think that this ought to be the turning point for him, seeing as he's playing well and all. But Moyes thinks otherwise. He consistently switches Kagawa out of his favored position or takes him off the field, even when he's playing alright.
8. His confidence is offically in the gutter. He gets some sort of panic attack.
9. "Still, my chances are bound to come now that there are so many injuries, right?", Kagawa thinks as he puts down the can of rat poison. BOOM! 3 games on the bench in a row.
_____________________________________________
The bottom line here is that's he's had a hard fecking time! Not only did he have to adapt to a new league, learn a new language, learn to play in a new position, and play for arguably the top team who's style fits him the least, all while battling injuries. He now has to pretty much create magic out of nothing everytime he plays, all while doing the same shit all over again.
At this stage, I'm not sure whether he hates or misses Fergie. If Fergie was still around, then things would definitely have looked much better for him. But if it weren't for Fergie being so convincing in the first place, then maybe he wouldn't have been trapped in this current mess?
I just don't see how he's gonna turn this around quickly enough for his market value to not go completely down the drains. Apparently, opposing teams and fans still rate him, so maybe it's time for him to jump off before it's too late? Dortmund is struggling in the league now, so maybe he ought to go back to them? That would be a win-win, seeing as we currently don't use him right anyways.
As much as I've supported him in the past, I do have to say that with each game he plays, it's harder to believe that he'll make it here. He's a classy player, without a doubt, and i'd love him to succeed, but the fact of the matter is, he's come at a time when we don't really need that sort of player and doesn't really complement the players, style that we currently employ.
If he was around during the time we had Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez playing alongside him (we could argue if he'd even get a game with Keano, Scholes and Giggsy still around), I'd have no doubts that he'd be a perfect fit, as that's what best suits his style, with people switching and making runs when he has the ball. We simply don't play this way right now.
If he was around during the time we had Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez playing alongside him (we could argue if he'd even get a game with Keano, Scholes and Giggsy still around), I'd have no doubts that he'd be a perfect fit, as that's what best suits his style, with people switching and making runs when he has the ball. We simply don't play this way right now.
Well, people (including myself) have been ripping Welbeck to bits for not scoring goals or offering anything substantial in attack. Now he's being played in his favorite position and he's gotten a couple of goals and you can see how much more confident he is.
I think Kagawa has the same problem. He hasn't really gotten his big break since he came here and is struggling to get time on the field. He's got loads of ability and it shines through even in games where he fails to make an impact. He hit a couple of brilliant passes to Hernandez yesterday and was at the center of arguably the best attacking move we made all game, where he one-two'd with several other players across the entire opposition half before misplacing a pass to Chicharito inside the box. He's got the tools. As soon as he gets his head in the right place he'll start using them properly and he'll be a useful player for us.
Of course, the team weren't doing him any favours with their movement yesterday, and I feel like he's a player who needs teammates who are on the same wavelength to really shine, and I think Rooney is the only player we have who has proper chemistry with Kagawa on the field.
I think Kagawa has the same problem. He hasn't really gotten his big break since he came here and is struggling to get time on the field. He's got loads of ability and it shines through even in games where he fails to make an impact. He hit a couple of brilliant passes to Hernandez yesterday and was at the center of arguably the best attacking move we made all game, where he one-two'd with several other players across the entire opposition half before misplacing a pass to Chicharito inside the box. He's got the tools. As soon as he gets his head in the right place he'll start using them properly and he'll be a useful player for us.
Of course, the team weren't doing him any favours with their movement yesterday, and I feel like he's a player who needs teammates who are on the same wavelength to really shine, and I think Rooney is the only player we have who has proper chemistry with Kagawa on the field.
The list of excuses keeps getting bigger I see.
I thought Kagawa would shine in this game. Norwich left so much space between the lines and midfield. He wasn't terrible by any means but should be doing more.
Perhaps he's also lacking a bit of confidence.. A goal / couple of assists would do him a world of good right now..
I love Kagawa and even have his replica shirt, but he's just not producing at all. If Rooney does stay in the summer, then I guess moving him on is the best thing for all parties.
Sometimes it just doesn't work out. He has all the quality in the world but he just doesn't produce. I have not given up hope but I don't expect him to have an impact at United anymore, just not happening for him. It's a shame because he is a top quality footballer.
Moyes said he brought Welbeck on to link things up, something Kagawa really should be doing.
Bottom line is that for Kagawa to play in his favourite role he would need to be playing better or being more productive than Rooney which obviously hasn't happened
To be a number 10 you need to be a bit special - you would never see the Bergkamps, Kakas or Rooneys of this world shy away from the challenge of being the fulcrum of the team
For me Kagawa is more of a Berbatov - capable of lovely football and looks great when things are going our way - for both those players when did they ever grab a game by the scruff of the neck when things weren't going our way?
Kagawa is a squad player at best on current form - and he shouldn't complain about that role given his form and impact
To be a number 10 you need to be a bit special - you would never see the Bergkamps, Kakas or Rooneys of this world shy away from the challenge of being the fulcrum of the team
For me Kagawa is more of a Berbatov - capable of lovely football and looks great when things are going our way - for both those players when did they ever grab a game by the scruff of the neck when things weren't going our way?
Kagawa is a squad player at best on current form - and he shouldn't complain about that role given his form and impact
Competing with Rooney is one thing. He needs to compete with Welbeck first.
True and although he wasn't really playing as a 10 yesterday Welbeck changed the game at a time when we were really struggling
I think the fact that moyes doesn't trust zaha, we had no other fit wingers and resting Januzaj sort of shot kagawa yesterday. If nani was fit he would have played left and kagawa behind the striker.
The problem with shinji is he is being too cautious. He needs to be selfish and do something a little special to make moyes realise the player he is. Right now he's just a fancy passer which is a shame.
The problem with shinji is he is being too cautious. He needs to be selfish and do something a little special to make moyes realise the player he is. Right now he's just a fancy passer which is a shame.
This is problematic. We did play very well against Leverkusen with Kagawa in his favoured position. But Leverkusen played like the very opposite of a standard Premier League opponent these days: They didn't hassle us at all. We didn't magically turn into a fast and fluid team machine - it was very much a question of playing against an opponent that (for once) suited our game.
The gravest concern regarding Kagawa seems to be that he isn't suited to a) our style (whatever that is) and b) the Premier League. The Leverkusen match, then, is just an anomaly regarded from a certain viewpoint.
I really don't think Kagawa can be defended here. He was given a chance yesterday and he was really quite poor and didn't impact the game at all.
Looks really short of confidence, not wanting to receive the ball, which is the main concern for me. When he does receive it, he doesn't seem willing to turn and run at opponents.
Lack of off ball movement and willingness to get into open space to receive a pass is the main issue at the moment for a lot of players, but especially the ones who are meant to be the creative ones i.e. Kagawa.
Looks really short of confidence, not wanting to receive the ball, which is the main concern for me. When he does receive it, he doesn't seem willing to turn and run at opponents.
Lack of off ball movement and willingness to get into open space to receive a pass is the main issue at the moment for a lot of players, but especially the ones who are meant to be the creative ones i.e. Kagawa.
He's a classy player who in the right team would be devestating.
We don't have that team, the players around him are often static preferring to play our slow zombie passing game...it does not suit him, and it's pretty obvious that he won't be here next season.
Next season then, we'll be looking for a creative attacking player, and look to Shinji who will be destroying the Bundesliga and think, THAT IS WHO WE NEED!
We don't have that team, the players around him are often static preferring to play our slow zombie passing game...it does not suit him, and it's pretty obvious that he won't be here next season.
Next season then, we'll be looking for a creative attacking player, and look to Shinji who will be destroying the Bundesliga and think, THAT IS WHO WE NEED!
I'm certain he won't be going anywhere, unless it's in some sort of swap deal with Dortmund/Atletico
We already look at Reus, Ozil, and other players at the center of "sexy" football at their respective clubs, and think that through some magic... If they ever make it to Manchester, the style of football will follow.
I don't think Utd are in great need for a player who hides in games.
I agree with this.
I don't think its fair to judge him too much on yesterday's game. I saw quotes from Moyes saying that he thought Kagawa played like he hadn't played for a while and he expects him to get better the more he plays because we've seen that with him before, and I agree with Moyes on that. Similar with Carrick I thought. He looked promising before he got ill (overate?) so there is no reason he can't find that form again in a few games.
There are two "ideas" in the Kagawa debate that I always will find very amusing.
1) The idea that it's "just" Kagawa to blame. Had we signed Silva, Mata or Özil, then things would have looked so much different.
2) The idea that Rooney and RVP are too good to be dropped or played out of position, regardless.
1. Do people really think that if we signed Özil he'd get to play in the no.10 position under Moyes? No way. He'd be shunted out left, and when his level dropped, people would start writing bullshit like "well, I guess the strong, awesome PL defences are too much for him!" or "that's the difference between Spain and England!". There's an parallel universe out there where Kagawa stayed in Dortmund. In that very universe, this entire forum is wanking over him, wanting us to break the bank when the transfer window comes. The truth of the matter is that we'd need big changes in order to accomodate these small technicians and play so-called entertaining football.
2. What if we had 3 world class CBs? Would we then play 3-4-3 or 5-3-2? It's clear as day that the 4-4-2 with no proper link-up or gameplan where we just pray for our strikers to create magic out of nothing isn't doing us any favors under Moyes. The Kagawa transfer was meant as the start of something new. People who think that Fergie was an overly proud totalitarian who only did things his way, needs to get a reality check. Fergie was always good at adapting to the game, and he was inspired by others to change our play style to better fit Europe. Kagawa was signed for this very purpose, despite protests even from some of his players(Rooney for instance), who wanted us to stick to the old style.
Moyes has completely discarded Fergie's project, which he of course has the right to do, being the manager and all. But it's definitely not unfair to call him out on it, and question whether or not it is the right move.
The truth is, unless we let Kagawa get a good run of games in his favored position, then we haven't really tested him out properly. You might argue that Fergie never gave Kagawa this luxury either, but that's largely to blame on injuries and the fact that Kagawa needed to adapt to the PL style first. Also, we've never lost a game where Kagawa, Rooney and RVP have started together. I think that's roughly 10 games. And then there's the Fergie effect. Kagawa looked really good under Fergie, even on the left. There was no reason to rush things.
The Fergie effect is gone and Kagawa's confidence is down in the drains. He barely gets playtime compared to the Fergie days, and when he does, he has to play for a team that clicks way less than before, and he's taken off the field even when he's playing well. In short, he's been dealt a shitty hand.
Our team wasn't perfect under Fergie, but we were far more threatening going forward, and much more fluid. Stats have shown that Moyes likes to attack with wingers/fullbacks much more than Fergie liked. Say what you want about Moyes: he has gone in the completely opposite direction of what Fergie to. And that has seriously affected Kagawa.
1) The idea that it's "just" Kagawa to blame. Had we signed Silva, Mata or Özil, then things would have looked so much different.
2) The idea that Rooney and RVP are too good to be dropped or played out of position, regardless.
1. Do people really think that if we signed Özil he'd get to play in the no.10 position under Moyes? No way. He'd be shunted out left, and when his level dropped, people would start writing bullshit like "well, I guess the strong, awesome PL defences are too much for him!" or "that's the difference between Spain and England!". There's an parallel universe out there where Kagawa stayed in Dortmund. In that very universe, this entire forum is wanking over him, wanting us to break the bank when the transfer window comes. The truth of the matter is that we'd need big changes in order to accomodate these small technicians and play so-called entertaining football.
2. What if we had 3 world class CBs? Would we then play 3-4-3 or 5-3-2? It's clear as day that the 4-4-2 with no proper link-up or gameplan where we just pray for our strikers to create magic out of nothing isn't doing us any favors under Moyes. The Kagawa transfer was meant as the start of something new. People who think that Fergie was an overly proud totalitarian who only did things his way, needs to get a reality check. Fergie was always good at adapting to the game, and he was inspired by others to change our play style to better fit Europe. Kagawa was signed for this very purpose, despite protests even from some of his players(Rooney for instance), who wanted us to stick to the old style.
Moyes has completely discarded Fergie's project, which he of course has the right to do, being the manager and all. But it's definitely not unfair to call him out on it, and question whether or not it is the right move.
The truth is, unless we let Kagawa get a good run of games in his favored position, then we haven't really tested him out properly. You might argue that Fergie never gave Kagawa this luxury either, but that's largely to blame on injuries and the fact that Kagawa needed to adapt to the PL style first. Also, we've never lost a game where Kagawa, Rooney and RVP have started together. I think that's roughly 10 games. And then there's the Fergie effect. Kagawa looked really good under Fergie, even on the left. There was no reason to rush things.
The Fergie effect is gone and Kagawa's confidence is down in the drains. He barely gets playtime compared to the Fergie days, and when he does, he has to play for a team that clicks way less than before, and he's taken off the field even when he's playing well. In short, he's been dealt a shitty hand.
Our team wasn't perfect under Fergie, but we were far more threatening going forward, and much more fluid. Stats have shown that Moyes likes to attack with wingers/fullbacks much more than Fergie liked. Say what you want about Moyes: he has gone in the completely opposite direction of what Fergie to. And that has seriously affected Kagawa.
Kagawa- fanboy, Moyes Out, bollocks. Kagawa's not been good enough in English football. Deal with it.
Mad Winger sorry but your posts on Kagawa are just ridiculous.
He's not been good enough for United, but that isn't reflective of his quality. If we put him for sale there would be a bunch of suitors lined up. Of course, labeling him as a player that hides is retarded, but whatever.
I see there are still people refusing to accept that when he plays poorly it might be down to, you know, him, and not every other fecking thing in the known universe. Bottom line, if he keeps under-performing, I'm pretty sure we'll cut our losses. Very few players get more than two underwhelming seasons at a new club before their position is under threat.
Is there a fanboi of the year award in the caf Oscars
I agree there should not be constant excuses for Kagawa when he performs badly and Mad Winger's post are way over the top.
Personally, I think yesterday is one where I would give everyone a pass though as we fielded a make shift side with some players who were obviously running on empty against difficult away opponents. IT's all about winning over the Christmas period rather than the performances.
I also think he played okay in the second half when Welbeck came on.
Obviously he has a lot to prove to get in to the side regularly and should be capable of much better.
Personally, I think yesterday is one where I would give everyone a pass though as we fielded a make shift side with some players who were obviously running on empty against difficult away opponents. IT's all about winning over the Christmas period rather than the performances.
I also think he played okay in the second half when Welbeck came on.
Obviously he has a lot to prove to get in to the side regularly and should be capable of much better.
Kagawa might be Berbatov mk2. Great player but does not fit into our team. His class is obvious but he seems to be out of sync with rest of the team.
It's a perfectly valid opinion. Doesn't get involved anywhere near enough.
He plays too safe, and doesn't make his presence felt often enough. Clearly a very talented player but he needs to do a lot more.
That's about right. I think he's one of the most talented players at the club. At his very best I think he's probably one of the best players in the league. The problem is we haven't seen it. Obviously that's not completely down to him as he's playing sporadically in a team which has had its problems, in a system he's apparently not especially comfortable with, and often in a position that requires him to do things which are not strong points in his game.
But this rush from some posters to denigrate the team and our tactics to spare Kagawa from criticism is galling, not least using 'zombie passing/movement' as a mindless catch all for when we play poorly.
An exaggeration at best. Moyes has tinkered very little with what he inherited compared to what many managers would have done. Some would say he has tinkered too little - and waited too long to implement his own brand of football. The idea that Fergie was on the verge of turning us into some kind of short passing, continental outfit when he retired is far-fetched.
You're missing something crucial here, by the way: Most of us realize that there's something wrong with the team - with the way we play at the moment. There isn't enough movement, nor enough cohesion, nor enough variety - and so on. We're too static, too one-dimensional - it's obvious. And it's equally obvious that Kagawa would indeed benefit from more of what we're lacking at the moment. Every single player out there would, including Rooney who has so far been excellent in spite of the team not working properly.
Kagawa doesn't seem to have it in him to step up to the plate and take charge of a match. Here and now, given our problems, that is the main issue with him. He looks impotent and meek. Unlike Rooney he's not able to transcend the well-known team problems and make a direct contribution to see us through a match. He isn't good enough to shine in spite of our limitations as a team. That's the reality here - in sharp contrast to what you have been claiming since the start of the season: Stick him in the middle, in his natural position, and watch us transform into a better side. It doesn't work like that. When things slow down and we enter "zombie mode", Kagawa doesn't look like the man to turn to.
All this talk about how United are just the wrong club for Kagawa. Face facts, he wouldn't get into the Arsenal side (even minus Ozil), he wouldn't get into the City side, he wouldn't get into the Chelsea side. He's just not all that good.
retarded?
It's pretty much describes his play this season. Even Ashley Young showed up in the 2nd half yesterday when we needed him to step up
Thats what I think too.
- Status