Shinji Kagawa

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Gladiator said:
i think he does have the capability to play the unpredictable pass. He's very good at playing through balls. I think part of the issue is as you hinted at, that something extra. He still hasnt really got a run of games with the team and at dortmund he was afforded that with klopp which i think really helped his confidence. This is United and he doesnt have the same faith in him as Fergie and Moyes have shown in Valencia despite his poor performances so he really needs to have one of those games where he makes a telling impact.

Unfortunatley so far he hasn done it to the level we would like. I know i've argued with you in the past over kagawa and it seemed like i was making excuses but i was merely try to counteract some of the criticism and offer some of my own observations which i feel are relevant when it comes to the "why hasn kagawa lived up to expectations" discussion. I try to be balanced on all of our players but obviously emotions can get the best of you sometimes ha
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Yeah no worries! My emotions affect my posts a bit too unfortunately. I do agree with you confidence can have a huge impact on players though so that could be the case with Kagawa.
 
Sphaero said:
The thing is, that when the transfer of Kagawa was announced I thought that this was SAF´s first step to change the heavily winger based system towards a more fluid pass system. Otherwise the transfer would have made very little sense to me.

The problem was, that the next steps never came and he suffered from that. It did not help that some people on here had false expectations of him. They thought that bringing him in would solve the movement problems and modernise the system. Suddenly he was claimed to be the Bundesliga player of the season, the creative center of Dortmund and the guy their system was built around. All these claims were not accurate.

People criticise him for not imposing himself enough on the game, for not taking charge and creating enough. He never was much of a lead player and creator at Dortmund, which was not really a problem, because a team does not need ten of these. He was an extremely skilled role player. The before mentioned tasks were taken over by other players, namely Sahin, Hummels, Götze and Gündogan.

This is also why he sometimes dissapeared on the pitch when the overall play was dire. He could turn a decent playing side into a great playing one, but when there was no spark he struggled. His job was not to create the spark, but to make the fire stronger. I remember someone calling him a multiplier in the past, which fit his role very well.

Unfortunately his role of a pressing orientated very offensive minded central midfielder does in that form not exist at United. His greatest strength besides his pressing ability was finding spaces in the center where it was the thickest. This gave Dortmund the option to play through the center and use him as a constant pass option. This of course helped the other offensive players and creating players aswell.

I also doubt, if he would be mentally strong enough to carry a team. He struggles for months now with his confidence and it affects his play greatly. His normally existing goal threat is completely gone. Maybe he needs the constant support he had from his former coach to really deliver, which would make it hard for him at a club of the size of United, because there you have to draw confidence from somewhere even if you don´t get it from the staff.


As it stands now, I don´t see much future for him at United. For his sake, I can only hope that he finds a club, where he can resume his former role and show his strengths again.
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excellent post sphaero and i've started to see this too with his time here. I think we definitely overhyped him
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Yeah no worries! My emotions affect my posts a bit too unfortunately. I do agree with you confidence can have a huge impact on players though so that could be the case with Kagawa.
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yep i just hope he finds some way to turn it around but as sphaero alluded to without a change in our system, it doesnt look good.
 
Still maintain he's a great player, but simply just doesn't fit in to our system.

We're all about playing the ball out wide to our wingers rather than looking for the short pass and move in the final third of the pitch, where he's he excelled at Dortmund. It must be as frustrating for him as it is for us, seeing our team lump the ball 50 yards to the wingers, rather than make a 5 yard pass to feet, and then feel frustrated to see our wingers feck up the cross...

While I would still love for him to be a success here- he's better off playing somewhere where he actually fits in!
 
Can't see how he's going to be a success here, we just don't suit him at all.

He is obviously a quality player but really we were judging him off an 18 month spell for a team that was practically custom made for his skill set. Nani had a brilliant 18 month spell too, that doesn't make him a top player either.

The only way I could see him fitting into the side as a first team regular was if he adapted to the left wing role but he hasn't managed to do that so far.
 
Sphaero said:
The thing is, that when the transfer of Kagawa was announced I thought that this was SAF´s first step to change the heavily winger based system towards a more fluid pass system. Otherwise the transfer would have made very little sense to me.

The problem was, that the next steps never came and he suffered from that. It did not help that some people on here had false expectations of him. They thought that bringing him in would solve the movement problems and modernise the system. Suddenly he was claimed to be the Bundesliga player of the season, the creative center of Dortmund and the guy their system was built around. All these claims were not accurate.

People criticise him for not imposing himself enough on the game, for not taking charge and creating enough. He never was much of a lead player and creator at Dortmund, which was not really a problem, because a team does not need ten of these. He was an extremely skilled role player. The before mentioned tasks were taken over by other players, namely Sahin, Hummels, Götze and Gündogan.

This is also why he sometimes dissapeared on the pitch when the overall play was dire. He could turn a decent playing side into a great playing one, but when there was no spark he struggled. His job was not to create the spark, but to make the fire stronger. I remember someone calling him a multiplier in the past, which fit his role very well.

Unfortunately his role of a pressing orientated very offensive minded central midfielder does in that form not exist at United. His greatest strength besides his pressing ability was finding spaces in the center where it was the thickest. This gave Dortmund the option to play through the center and use him as a constant pass option. This of course helped the other offensive players and creating players aswell.

I also doubt, if he would be mentally strong enough to carry a team. He struggles for months now with his confidence and it affects his play greatly. His normally existing goal threat is completely gone. Maybe he needs the constant support he had from his former coach to really deliver, which would make it hard for him at a club of the size of United, because there you have to draw confidence from somewhere even if you don´t get it from the staff.


As it stands now, I don´t see much future for him at United. For his sake, I can only hope that he finds a club, where he can resume his former role and show his strengths again.
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Excellent post, mate.
 
Sphaero said:
The thing is, that when the transfer of Kagawa was announced I thought that this was SAF´s first step to change the heavily winger based system towards a more fluid pass system. Otherwise the transfer would have made very little sense to me.

The problem was, that the next steps never came and he suffered from that. It did not help that some people on here had false expectations of him. They thought that bringing him in would solve the movement problems and modernise the system. Suddenly he was claimed to be the Bundesliga player of the season, the creative center of Dortmund and the guy their system was built around. All these claims were not accurate.

People criticise him for not imposing himself enough on the game, for not taking charge and creating enough. He never was much of a lead player and creator at Dortmund, which was not really a problem, because a team does not need ten of these. He was an extremely skilled role player. The before mentioned tasks were taken over by other players, namely Sahin, Hummels, Götze and Gündogan.

This is also why he sometimes dissapeared on the pitch when the overall play was dire. He could turn a decent playing side into a great playing one, but when there was no spark he struggled. His job was not to create the spark, but to make the fire stronger. I remember someone calling him a multiplier in the past, which fit his role very well.

Unfortunately his role of a pressing orientated very offensive minded central midfielder does in that form not exist at United. His greatest strength besides his pressing ability was finding spaces in the center where it was the thickest. This gave Dortmund the option to play through the center and use him as a constant pass option. This of course helped the other offensive players and creating players aswell.

I also doubt, if he would be mentally strong enough to carry a team. He struggles for months now with his confidence and it affects his play greatly. His normally existing goal threat is completely gone. Maybe he needs the constant support he had from his former coach to really deliver, which would make it hard for him at a club of the size of United, because there you have to draw confidence from somewhere even if you don´t get it from the staff.


As it stands now, I don´t see much future for him at United. For his sake, I can only hope that he finds a club, where he can resume his former role and show his strengths again.
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Breaking my "no reply"-rule for the second time, because I think this is a really good post.

I agree with most of the things you write, especially the part about Kagawa being a "multiplier", rather than a player who stands up on a bad day and carries the team. That is mainly why I've been so shocked at why Kagawa has been singled out so many times, when he's clearly not the type of player who it's logical to scapegoat. He doesn't lose possession very often, nor misplace many passes. He works hard, and constantly makes himself available for passes. The only thing he asks for in return, is more movement from his teammates(and preferably players with better technique). When he doesn't get this, then he's left standing like an idiot, wondering just what to do. He doesn't have the necessary drive or confidence to take players on. Hell, even in his Dortmund glory days this wasn't his style. The only reason he did it more often there, was because he had players around him running a lot, pulling defenders away and creating space for him. It's obviously much easier to dribble then. Especially when you're at the center of the pitch.

While Kagawa didn't carry Dortmund by himself, I don't think it's unfair to say that he was Dortmund's best player when we signed him. In the 2011-2012 season he was overall better than Lewa, Hummels, Götze and Gündogan. I wasn't even a Kagawa fan before I started watching Dortmund, and this is based on those 15-20 games I saw.

Kagawa was always going to be the type of player that we either change our style slightly to fit into the team, or a player who's only decent with the occassional sexy move(though I actually thought he was rather good last season under Fergie, all things considered). Under Moyes we've gone for the last option and then some. We were never this dependent on crosses last season. Obviously this has affected Kagawa's play. A lot of people complimented him on his Arsenal performance, which I still don't understand. I thought he was average that game, seeing as he didn't create anything going forward. But he ran a lot and defended really well, and he was on the field during an important victory, so people could somehow approve of that. But that game for me, was the perfect example of why we didn't sign Kagawa. He looked like a Young hybrid, with less dribbling.

It's all based on theories and guesses, but I feel confident that we'd see a completely different Kagawa this season, had Fergie stayed. His retirement is going to haunt Kagawa for the rest of his career. I hope for his sake he manages to jump off before it's too late. The mid-twenties are crucial for his development as a player. Better to be a hero at a slightly weaker club than an Average Joe at United. Hell, Dortmund is currently better than United, so if he could go back there, it would be awesome for him.
 
Because he wasn't? Oddly, that doesn't change the fact that he was excellent for them.

Odd point to make, actually.
 
It's not an odd point at all. Kagawa was one of Borussia Dortmund's best players in 11/12. Started off slowly, but was fantastic at creating chances. Easily their best attacking player for me.
 
What he did or didn't do at Dortmund is sadly irrelevant, or should be, to United fans.

An acceptable first season has been followed up by a poor second season. He's hardly had any good performances and he doesn't produce at all.

He can't play as a left sided midfielder here and he won't get to play in his preferred AM position either. Even when he has, he doesn't look the player we thought he would be.

In one way I feel sorry for him because he's doomed to fail as long as our gameplan is so one-dimensional and so dependant on crossing from the right and overloading the wide areas.

In another way I feel he has to shoulder the blame himself. He hasn't imposed himself on matches at all. He hasn't made himself undroppable. In fact his performances has been so far below what we expect that only an idiot would consider benching Rooney for him. It's not entirely his fault, but the true top players doesn't need the team set up for them to perform. I.E. RvP last season.
 
With Rooney and RvP out I'd really like to see him get an extended run playing behind Welbeck.
 
marjen said:
What he did or didn't do at Dortmund is sadly irrelevant, or should be, to United fans.

An acceptable first season has been followed up by a poor second season. He's hardly had any good performances and he doesn't produce at all.

He can't play as a left sided midfielder here and he won't get to play in his preferred AM position either. Even when he has, he doesn't look the player we thought he would be.

In one way I feel sorry for him because he's doomed to fail as long as our gameplan is so one-dimensional and so dependant on crossing from the right and overloading the wide areas.

In another way I feel he has to shoulder the blame himself. He hasn't imposed himself on matches at all. He hasn't made himself undroppable. In fact his performances has been so far below what we expect that only an idiot would consider benching Rooney for him. It's not entirely his fault, but the true top players doesn't need the team set up for them to perform. I.E. RvP last season.
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Good post.

We all agree that our style needs to change. However Kagawa has done nothing to suggest that the style should change around him. He has done nothing to suggest that even in a fluid, pressing 4-2-3-1 system should be manipulated to accommodate him, particularly in his favourite position. In fact I would currently say if we did completely change our play to a system that Kagawa would perform best in; Kagawa himself still wouldn't be able to get in the team ahead of Rooney, Januzaj or even Nani.

I watch Football with my Dad and his Dad. The most telling thing that I can say is that neither of them had heard of him before we signed him, neither of them knew he was in the final year of his contract or whether he was good, bad or indifferent for Dortmund. Both of them feel in every sense of the word he is not good enough for United and has not justified his £12m fee. They both compare him to Berbatov in the sense that he completely disappears when things aren't going our way, and only seems to look impressive when we would win by 2-3 goals with or without him. They both feel he is a luxury that very few teams could afford, as he doesn't have the talent of an Ozil to justify it. They've also said that he gives the appearance of being a hard worker, whilst not actually doing anything; saying he constantly jogs within 5 yards of the opposition without actually putting any pressure on them, rinse, repeat.

More damning than my assessment, although possibly reading all the opinions on him before we signed him has made me less damning and want to give him more time.
 
Some players make their teams look great, other players are made to look great by their teams. Kagawa and Dortmund exemplify the latter case.
 
For me, he's far too happy to be a passenger. His pressing game is actually quite poor, as pointed out, because he only gets to within five yards then stand off people. His movement is good and his passing is neat and tidy, but he's got no urgency or will to drive up the tempo. He slows our play down, and we're not excactly playing a high octane brand of football to begin with.
 
marjen said:
For me, he's far too happy to be a passenger. His pressing game is actually quite poor, as pointed out, because he only gets to within five yards then stand off people. His movement is good and his passing is neat and tidy, but he's got no urgency or will to drive up the tempo. He slows our play down, and we're not excactly playing a high octane brand of football to begin with.
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I agree with this, i have yet to see him actually tackle a player. Saying that however, we played with a fast tempo against leverkusen and he played a lot better behind Rooney.

It really is quite sad that this could have been a great combo (united and kagawa) but it just isnt working for one reason or another.
 
You can say a lot about Kagawa, but it's incredibly unfair to call him a one trick pony that Dortmund made look better than he actually is.

Besides his triumphs for Dortmund(central to their two Bundesliga wins and German Cup win, made it to Bundesliga Team of the Year 2011 despite being out half the season with a broken foot), he's been impressive elsewhere. He completely took the piss out of the J.League at age 21, which might not be the strongest league in the world, but it's still pretty decent. It's impressive to be so dominant at age 21 none the less, especially considering that he started out as a DM and was converted into an AM.

For the national team he's been even better. Asian/Australian POTY 2012, the standout player for Japan's gold medal in the Asian Cup, and overall one of the best players for a Japan team that has beaten teams like France, Belgium, Argentina, Ghana and South Korea a bunch of times. He's toyed with Italy as well, which is considered one of the better European national teams as we speak.

Levir Culpi(his coach and mentor from Cerezo Osaka) even said in an interview that he was disappointed that Kagawa chose us over Barca, claiming that the latter team is the perfect fit. This shows two things: 1) that he thinks that Kagawa is good enough to cut it at Barca and 2) that Kagawa can thrive in yet another style.

So, besides Dortmund, Kagawa has done really well for Cerezo Osaka and the Japanese national team. That's two different teams with two different styles. His mentor who arguably knows him the best is also convinced that Kagawa would be the perfect fit for Barca. So that's yet another style to add. And then there's the fact that he had a fairly good first season for us and was improving game by game near the end. So that's another team and another style where Kagawa could perform well in.

It's about time people admit that it's only under Moyes that Kagawa has struggled. While it's true that Kagawa is the type of player that gets better with better players around him(a "multiplier", as Sphaero called it), it's incredibly ignorant to say that he only looked good because Dortmund made him good. People complain about how Kagawa is being defended too much, but my goodness so is Moyes in this debate! A player that looked bright last season and has been a revelation elsewhere doesn't get to play even when fit, and is shifted out of his position(or taken off) even when he's playing well. He's also not allowed to start many games in a row. Do people really think that this means nothing? One of the reasons Kagawa looked better last season is because Fergie fecking played him, often many games in a row.
 
marjen said:
For me, he's far too happy to be a passenger. His pressing game is actually quite poor, as pointed out, because he only gets to within five yards then stand off people. His movement is good and his passing is neat and tidy, but he's got no urgency or will to drive up the tempo. He slows our play down, and we're not excactly playing a high octane brand of football to begin with.
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That's actually not a problem at all for teams with collective pressing. He's denying the player passing options instead of giving him the possibility to go past him and then have an open pass, but it means the rest of the team needs to move accordingly and go for interceptions instead of tacklings and a second player need to come and help putting pressure on the player when all passing lanes are covered. Dortmund is the team with by far the lowest number of fouls in the league, if I remember correctly. They rarely go for the tackle and they don't need to and it's no coincidence that the level of their pressing significantly dropped since Kagawa left. Of course, it's completely useless when the team doesn't want to play like that and it's really disappointing that he can't change his style to suit the team at all, I did expect him to be more flexible in his style. But the way Barca, Bayern or Dortmund play pressing, standing off people is actually crucial for it to work.
 
Balu said:
That's actually not a problem at all for teams with collective pressing. He's denying the player passing options instead of giving him the possibility to go past him and then have an open pass, but it means the rest of the team needs to move accordingly and go for interceptions instead of tacklings and a second player need to come and help putting pressure on the player when all passing lanes are covered. Dortmund is the team with by far the smallest number of fouls in the league, if I remember correctly. They rarely go for the tackle and they don't need to and it's no coincidence that the level of their pressing significantly dropped since Kagawa left. Of course, it's completely useless when the team doesn't want to play like that and it's really disappointing that he can't change his style to suit the team at all, I did expect him to be more flexible in his style. But the way Barca, Bayern or Dortmund play pressing, standing off people is actually crucial for it to work.
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You still need to get close enough to actually apply pressure, even if you're not diving in for the tackle. What he's doing in a United shirt is what I'd label token pressing. Pretty much the same thing he does when we have the ball. Token passing with no real purpose or willingness to take responsibility for our performance.

He's not alone in that, but it does render him quite ineffective. And I'm tired of the blame being put on everyone else than him. It's his performances, it's up to him to do something about it.
 
marjen said:
You still need to get close enough to actually apply pressure, even if you're not diving in for the tackle. What he's doing in a United shirt is what I'd label token pressing. Pretty much the same thing he does when we have the ball. Token passing with no real purpose or willingness to take responsibility for our performance.

He's not alone in that, but it does render him quite ineffective. And I'm tired of the blame being put on everyone else than him. It's his performances, it's up to him to do something about it.
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You don't have to. Kagawa approaches defenders and stays a few yards from them and alters his body position to cancel out passing angles. His pressing is really good. It's just that it's pretty much useless when we don't press in the manner that would make the most out of this.
 
MoneyMay said:
You don't have to. Kagawa approaches defenders and stays a few yards from them and alters his body position to cancel out passing angles. His pressing is really good. It's just that it's pretty much useless when we don't press in the manner that would make the most out of this.
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I don't agree with this at all. He doesn't sprint into positions to close people down, he strolls around at walking pace, just like he does when he's on the ball.
 
marjen said:
He's not alone in that, but it does render him quite ineffective. And I'm tired of the blame being put on everyone else than him. It's his performances, it's up to him to do something about it.
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I agree with that, if no one else is moving accordingly to make use of 'his movement' it's just poor from him, he really should be able to adapt, he really needs to. It's poor decision making by him right now and he can't expect different players in a different team to do what he needs them to do.
 
marjen said:
I don't agree with this at all. He doesn't sprint into positions to close people down, he strolls around at walking pace, just like he does when he's on the ball.
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We'll have to agree to disagree then, as I believe Kagawa's pressing game is pretty good. It's why he did so well at Borussia Dortmund. Otherwise, he would have never fit in an ideal manner. His pressing forces players to hoof the ball as he blocks passing angles. Maybe it's a bit different on the left, but it's not one thing I would criticise him for. I wouldn't be surprised if he were to leave at the end of the season. Mistakes have been made on both sides IMO and I don't buy into this notion that it's purely down to the system.
 
I'm sat here in Munich with a couple of Bayern supporting lads and even they feel that we've handled him in an atrocious manner. They're happy that his departure weakened Dortmund, to an extent, but they're also saddened over how our treatment has reduced him to a shadow of his former self.
 
van der star said:
I'm sat here in Munich with a couple of Bayern supporting lads and even they feel that we've handled him in an atrocious manner. They're happy that his departure weakened Dortmund, to an extent, but they're also saddened over how our treatment has reduced him to a shadow of his former self.
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Anyone who watched him in German knows he is a quality player. He just doesn't fit into a system that's all about one isolated man beating his defender while everyone else stands around and waits.
 
marjen said:
I don't agree with this at all. He doesn't sprint into positions to close people down, he strolls around at walking pace, just like he does when he's on the ball.
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He doesn sprint into positions to close people down but he certainly closes off passing lanes. He's a good presser and he showed that at Dortmund. We dont really have a pressing scheme. At least not as sophisticated as the counterpressing scheme Kagawa was in at Dortmund
 
Here are some images from the article since some of you were discussing his defensive contributions.

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Adored him at Dortmund - and I think he's the first player who I wished would join United, who actually did. Sadly, this hasn't worked for him. If we didn't sign RVP last season, then I think he would have synced better last season. Wasn't the case.

He should leave to reignite his career. We are not the team for him.
 
RedThaiDevils#7 said:
Just play him 10 games in his preferred role, if he's piss poor then sell him. He's never got a run, never was he played 10 times as AM consistently, so we really judging him after we played him in CM etc. ???
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And drop players playing better than him. That isn't going to happen.
 
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