Imagine if there was just one or two players around him who could receive the ball and move it along quickly, and move around a bit rather than standing still??
He's too good for this current side.
He's too good for this current side.
Shinji Kagawa
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As I said in the match thread, I don't know why it hasn't happened for him here, he's actually a really classy player on the ball.
Problems with Kagawa:
1) he is out of sync with the rest of the team. He runs, he passes, he waits for a return pass......waits....by the time he gets it its fecking too late
2) he lacks confidence - self confidence and those around him
3) he lacks players of similar ilk- he would a fantastic buy for Arsenal, Liverpool or City.
4) he's too weak for EPL. Gets brushed off easily.
1) he is out of sync with the rest of the team. He runs, he passes, he waits for a return pass......waits....by the time he gets it its fecking too late
2) he lacks confidence - self confidence and those around him
3) he lacks players of similar ilk- he would a fantastic buy for Arsenal, Liverpool or City.
4) he's too weak for EPL. Gets brushed off easily.
He's a player who works with pace and movement off the ball from other players. He was working with the likes of Gotze, Lewandowski Reus and Blazcywhatski around him who were constantly moving into spaces he worked best at, but here the movement is completely different and doesn't bring out his best .
A player who is 'too good for this current side' would rise above the dross and deliver a few potential match-winning moments (ie. Wayne Rooney, and possibly even Januzaj.) Kagawa looks to be nothing more than a decorator at this moment. I love his style of play, and was encouraged going into this season, but he's hardly forced Moyes' hand when given the opportunity. A talented player who doesn't fit our style of play? Sure enough. But too good for us? Hardly.
I don't there can be any doubt which player has the brighter future for us.
He was disappointing, but I cannot blame him. He must feel deceived and utterly disappointed that he only got to work with Ferguson for one season. I am not blaming Ferguson entirely, as I know he had personal reasons for his retirement, but I also believe he initially told Kagawa and van Persie that he was not planning to retire. With this in mind, how depressing must it be to have worked with superlative motivators like Klopp and Ferguson to a man who looks out of his depth in just about every sense, from tactics to motivation. Ferguson clearly viewed Kagawa to be a long-term investment and had faith in him. Moyes has shown zero faith in certain players including Kagawa.
Basically this. He's not suited for us as much as we're not suited for him.
The best for both parties is to ship him out in summer so we can recruit a midfielder and he can resurrect his career.
He's on a different wave length to most of the others it seems like. He only really links up well with Rooney or Van Persie, which could say something about the rest of our starting 11...
However the biggest problem for me has always been our zombie-like passing, and the lack of movement. We're too slow at releasing the ball and you don't ever see people making runs off the ball. Kagawa gets the ball, looks up, and you can see that he wants to do something, there's just nothing on so he turns around and ends up passing it to somebody else, ultimately just keeping the ball. Its probably so frustrating for him because he has so much talent but he's just come to the United team at the wrong time. He's not somebody who can take the ball, dribble past 3 or 4 players like Januzaj can and then score great goals, he's always been a player suited to a specific type of football and is excellent when playing in those teams. He won't ever show it for United consistently because it'll take a huge change to get us playing a better, quicker style of football that he can thrive in regularly.
Meanwhile there will be loads of people on here coming in after every game that he has (even though he's no worse then decent every game) and say he's shite, overrated, bundesliga is overrated, and so on. Said it before but if United played a style that Kagawa was more suited to, then the rest of our team would also play at a much better standard and we'd be better off for it. Obviously he's never going to force out Rooney from the #10 spot, he'd be able to fit in our team if we weren't so one-dimensional and always went to just cross it in the box on every single chance we get.
Reus was brought to replace Kagawa after he left.
and it's Błaszczykowski
Yeah I thought he did! And it's Blazcywhatski until I find the true name!!
Yeah I thought he did! And it's Blazcywhatski until I find the true name!!
its fecking hilarious, your spelling is mate
I like this
I was convinced back in May that Moyes will be a disaster and he's outdone himself so far, even in my worst nightmare I cannot imagine United being fecking 7th in the league after the new year.
it's not even that. In terms of quality of football we play we are somewhere near 1oth place. the sheer brilliance of one player saved our asses.
Yeah I'm surprised he's failed to adapt because Bundesliga is relatively physical. He never seemed so frail at Dortmund but maybe confidence plays a factor in that too?
is right. currently we just dont suit him. I wouldnt sell him but wont be surprised if we do. Good player but we signed him at the wrong time. As Sphaero said, if we were set on changing our style of play the transfer would have made more sense. We havent and in respect to all parties, it just hasnt panned out.
Think some of us got carried away too and didnt realize he was a player that is system-dependent when he initially signed. Cant fault fans who never seen him play at Dortmund.
many on here think that RVP coming back will help a lot...personally i think that he will need to time to synchronize with the team again (he has been out for what seems to be a half year) and the other thing is that we create very few chances. I know that RVP is a prolific finisher but even he doesnt convert 100% of chances.
well see
Januzaj is a player I think would work well with Kagawa, I really hope with Rooney needing a rest we see Kagawa through the middle with Januzaj one side of him. I've said it before but I'll be disappointed if we don't get to see a 3 of januzaj, kagawa and nani of a striker at least once before we decide on whether to keep him or nani. Particularly with Rooney's future in doubt, as those three all have the ability to play anywhere off a striker and work well in that quick, fluid style.
We can't sell him until Rooney signs an extension, we may need him!
Well, he was 'out' all summer just before he signed for us last season, so hopefully he picks it up quickly than Rooney normally does.
Rooney will leave in the summer and Kagawa can grab that spot if he waits.
Well, he was 'out' all summer just before he signed for us last season, so hopefully he picks it up quickly than Rooney normally does.
yeah, Im getting drunk too
From another thread, this is the best answer for me.
A Dortmund fan's view.
http://thepeoplesperson.com/why-manchester-uniteds-expectations-of-shinji-kagawa-are-misguided/
Too good for the side? Absolute bollocks.
If he's as good as everyone on here is making out he would drive the side on, especially when he's does play in the influential no.10 position. Great players don't diminish in ''poor sides'. He's just not made for this league IMO.
He'll follow Wayne out the door in the summer.
I am fed up with him to be honest. He doesn't step up, he has had opportunities for both positions to stake a claim in our side. But he is not consistent, he is not stepping up and most importantly which some people don't want to admit, is not as good as Rooney, simple as. It could well have been different without RVP, but he should have adapted to us, and not us adapting to him, that is not how it works.
He put that post on here a few pages ago, and he's completely right. Most on here seem to think he's the type to pick the ball up from deep and dribble past 2 or 3 players and whip balls into box or score goals because he looks so classy on the ball but he just isn't that type of player.
My post on here was actually the basis for that article. The editor asked me to use that and added one or two well chosen lines to it. Props to him, btw.
Confidence does play a role, but it goes further than that.
First of all, the EPL is the most physical league in world football, mostly because of the refereeing, which allows more physicality. However, this does not mean that we play no contact sport over here. Physicality was also always a part of the game over here, especially before the transition into more technical apects of the game. The smaller teams for the most part still resort largely to the physical side. IMO among the top leagues the Bundesliga is the closest to the EPL in that aspect.
So, claiming the different leagues as the main reason for Kagawa´s struggles is too simple for me.
It all boils down again to the system. Let´s assume Dortmund would have played in similar way for Kagawa as United, meaning little service from the center midfield and way less passing options going forward. He would have struggled nearly as much in the Bundesliga as in the EPL.
The key point is, that United´s system exposes one of his greatest weaknesses. Kagawa was never great in getting past players and solving 1 on 1 situations. He never will be. He does not have the body to force himself through and while his dribbling is good, he also lacks the speed to outrun his opponents.
So while the United system shows his short comings very clearly, Klopp´s system actually allowed him a way to compensate them or even hide them. You rarely saw him pushed off the ball in the Bundesliga. This was not because the defenders did not try to pressure him, but because he very rarely found himself in such situations in the first place. He simply evaded such situations before they happened by using one of his greatest strengths: anticipation.
Kagawa was always extremely good at reading the opponent and the game. This makes him a very good pressing player (not that this matters at United), not by actually putting physical pressure on the opponent but by predicting passing routes and blocking them. In a similar way he evaded 1 on 1 situations. When he anticipated such situations he passed the ball away (mostly forward), giving the defender not enough time to actually get into the tackle. He could do that, because Klopp´s system is built to always have at least one passing option available going forward. He does not have that luxury at United. This also results in significantly longer ball holding times. Normally Kagawa would touch the ball two or three times and it would be gone already.
In that point (and also others) his compatibility to Dortmund´s system made him look better than he actually is. It used all his strengths and compensated basically all of his weaknesses. This would be the same for teams which share certain aspects of Klopp´s system. There are teams like that in the EPL, the most obvious choice being Arsenal London.
It is not all about the system or league, though. I never expected Kagawa to reach the level at United that he had at Dortmund. The differences in style are too great in my eyes.
However, I did not think he would have such great problems and at least become a valuable addition to the team. He simply failed to adapt at least to an extend and at this point he also can´t complain about not having had enough chances to make a case for himself. He had to step it up at one point and just did not manage to do that.
I personally overrated him in one point and this is his mental strength. Kagawa used to be one of the hardest workers at Dortmund, but looking at him now in most games he seems like a complete different player: devoid of any confidence, cowardly, lethargic and often completely invisible. Like someone, who has already given up and is about to cut his losses.
This is not good enough. Setting all problems about systems, styles and positions aside, he could still contribute way more than he does right now and the only reason, why he still gets the playing time he has right now, is that aside of Welbeck and Januzaj nobody has really made a case for himself. He does not have the luxury of a coach who adores and immensively rates him anymore, so he has to show something to prove that he can still give the team something that others are not able to do. Otherwise he has no future at this club.
This. I don't agree that he is too weak for the PL though. Silva isn't exactly a beast and he's done well. I honestly just think the way we play doesn't really suit him. We had the same problem with Veron (much better player) so it's nothing new. We need to make the transition to a more modern style of play, this has been evident for a while now.
Yeah I dont think this can be denied. I just did not see that from him in yesterday's game. In other ones he's been far worse.
He's japanese after all and they are not known for their tactical dexterity.
Still have hopes for him even though I think it just won't work. With Rooney most likely leaving after the World Cup, if we can hold onto Kagawa, it will give a little hope. But for someone with amazing technique and control, he had the touch of out of form Hernandez at some stages yesterday.
It hasn't just worked out for him here, it hasn't helped that he's been played out of position by both managers but even when he has played that traditional no.10 role that he prefers he still hasn't made a impression. Should probably be loaned back to Dortmund and then sold in the summer. Best for both parties.
I thought he played better today, and if Hernandez had been a bit more clinical, would have had an assist or two. He could have also been through on goal once or twice, after starting some 1-2s as he drove into the box, only for ball to get passed backwards or onto the wings as usual.
The biggest difference is that Fletcher actually had the confidence to pass the ball to feet, unlike some of our other players, who lack the confidence to try to make those passes into tight areas, who instead go for the 'safe' option of going to the wing, so that someone else can take responsibility for it.
I'm sure if it's even more frustrating for him than it is us, when you simply aren't getting the service to play your game.
The biggest difference is that Fletcher actually had the confidence to pass the ball to feet, unlike some of our other players, who lack the confidence to try to make those passes into tight areas, who instead go for the 'safe' option of going to the wing, so that someone else can take responsibility for it.
I'm sure if it's even more frustrating for him than it is us, when you simply aren't getting the service to play your game.
Sphaeros explanation would suggest Ferguson made (another) questionable buy.
Valencia, Smalling, Anderson, Young in the present squad all qualify too in my opinion.
Moyes being left with such a poor squad hasn't helped.
Valencia, Smalling, Anderson, Young in the present squad all qualify too in my opinion.
Moyes being left with such a poor squad hasn't helped.
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