On either wing.
Shinji Kagawa
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During the first half, Kagawa was his usual self for United. We know he has an abundance of talent, but, he is absolutely unable to to contribute anything productive while on the left wing. The reason people assume that Kagawa should automatically be able to slot in as a winger, is because he does so for Japan every game. Not only does he do this on the regular, he looks a completely different player when there. I know this can be the factor of a different style of play, or the team working around him, but with all due respect, it looks alien to him at United.
Second half, he had a much better display. He added a lot to our attacking fluidity and should of had a goal - which I wish he'd have got. People can say that this was because of the team performance but I think that's silly. He played his own game, regardless of his teammates. Kagawa will not be a winger for United and when both are fighting fit form, do you maintain that Rooney is a lesser player than him for United? I love the ability and the skill that Kagawa should for Dortmund but that was at Dortmund, not here. I hope to god he gets a regular string at #10 now and a solid opportunity to propel himself into his expected starlight.
Finally, Your team is not only negating RVP but more importantly at this moment, it is negating Danny. He has been playing on a different level for us at this moment and his contribution has been key for us lately. Why would you even consider dropping him?
Because he hasn't got the reputation that Shinji has.
ATM - Danny HAS to be the first name on the team sheet. We find a way to play him.
Why would it be a joke? Danny Welbeck and Adnan are our best two attacking options right now.
I like how Moyes receives some harsh criticism about playing him on the wing, when Fergie did exactly the same 
Anywho, I had to miss the the last 40 minutes of the game but I'm glad he played better. More of this please Shinji.
Anywho, I had to miss the the last 40 minutes of the game but I'm glad he played better. More of this please Shinji.
I obviously misread your post. Apologies. Obviously they are our best attacking options - I'm not arguing with that. If RVP came back fit today, it would be vile if he was put straight back into the starting XI over Danny.
Or, just don't ever read them again win win.
Even better again..
Anywho, lets just hope that he can get a run at #10 and show everybody - including Jamie, that he is more than fit to wear a United shirt.
What games this year has Shinji played as a number 10?
When Shinji has played in the middle, he certainly plays better than on the left wing. However, that's not saying much. He is nowhere playing well enough on his present showing shifting Rooney, or even Welbeck from that position.
Rooney, absolutely. I do think it's a shame he hasn't got in ahead of Welbeck who, even though he's found his scoring boots I'm not sure overall contribution is at 'can't be budged' mode if I'm honest. On the assumption RVP isn't fit for Chelsea I'd like to see Kagawa in behind Rooney with Januzaj out wide.
Welbeck has been fantastic as of late. As you touched on, he has scored 6/6 and on top of this, his overall work-rate has been immense.
Welbeck is one of the very few players who are giving United movement, pace and energy at present.
He's scoring goals because he's playing in his preferred position. I'm not sure his overall contribution has changed that much at all rather people see it as different because he's scoring. Overall I think his contribution is quite similar now to what it was before. Only difference is he's added goals. I certainly don't see a dramatic difference to what he offers now compared to when he was playing wide.
It's not to criticise how he's playing now necessarily but I don't think it's dramatically improved or got worse. He's the same player in a different position, now scoring. Everything else about his game seems the same. Hardly surprising I guess, given it's the same player.
Welbeck has carried us! Pretty much everything of note in the last 4 weeks has come from him/Adnan or even Young.
Only thing Plugsy, the main argument in the debate against Welbeck has been his lack of goals as a forward?
Were they?
I've always wondered if you gave Welbeck an Italian passport, a youth career at Lazio and a price tag of £18m, if people would be saying this.
Like Cleverley who until recently it was almost a sin to doubt his ascendency as one of the premier CMs in the league - I think Welbeck gets cut a LOT of slack that when compared with the likes of Kagawa, is a bit generous. Kagawa hasn't played great, no question, but if he put in the exact same performance as he has as a player who came through the system he'd be nigh on close to a fan-favourite now.
But because Kagawa is an important and had a transfer fee and came with expectation the overall feeling is he's failed to live up to expectation.
I'm not criticising Welbeck for the goals, I'm glad he's getting them. But if you look at someone like Kagawa I think you'll see more reasoned analysis of his performances compared to one or two of the home grown lads who really don't have to do that much to get praised or at least haven't had to. I realise when he's scoring 6 in 6 this isn't the easiest opinion 'sell' but there you are. I know he's banging in goals but I really don't know what people see in him to call Welbeck 'fantastic'. It's either an indication of how blinkered I am or a sign of how poorly we're playing if that level of performance is 'fantastic'. Again, I know 6/6 is 'fantastic' but the comment was more about his overall contribution which I think is the same as before and for better or worse it's a stretch to call it 'fantastic'.
Januzaj in most top European teams would probably look very good. Welbeck probably wouldn't, much less 'fantastic'. Again I'm not saying he's poor or should be dropped or isn't doing brilliantly to get the goals he has recently but given the level of expectation Kagawa plays under, for various reasons, a superlative like 'fantastic' to describe Welbeck's performance or performances over the last two years - is something I struggle subscribing to.
Literally can't see it at all sorry. He's clearly been fantastic. Even before he was scoring goals his link up play is really good. It's so hard to tackle him.
I remember against Cardiff away when his interplay with Rooney up front was amazing. That little 1-2 through volleys which he hit over was great. His pressing means he'll often win the ball back as well.
He's an outstanding talent our Danny. Definitely my favorite at the moment. To compare his performances to Kagawa this season is laughable. If anything people STILL saying they'd rather Shinji in the team rather than Danny is testament to the fact that people much prefer fancy sounding foreigners to those who've come through the system.
I remember against Cardiff away when his interplay with Rooney up front was amazing. That little 1-2 through volleys which he hit over was great. His pressing means he'll often win the ball back as well.
He's an outstanding talent our Danny. Definitely my favorite at the moment. To compare his performances to Kagawa this season is laughable. If anything people STILL saying they'd rather Shinji in the team rather than Danny is testament to the fact that people much prefer fancy sounding foreigners to those who've come through the system.
I think it's the opposite. I think players who come through the youth system get cut far more slack than available to others. Maybe that's fair enough but this place was full of identical opinion to yours about Tom Cleverley about five minutes ago before it turned.
Just cannot get my head around a player like Welbeck being called 'fantastic'. I don't get what standard that's supposed to be any more. It's a frankly ridiculous superlative to use. I'd buy 'good' or 'doing well' or 'getting better' or 'improving'. But fantastic? Really?
Compared to our rivals both here and abroad and the standards we have come to expect at the club you can honestly say, indeed repeat, that Danny Welbeck is "fantastic"?
That's the problem, the hyperbole is ridiculous. A player like Welbeck being described as 'fantastic' means it's virtually impossible to even talk about other players as if 'fantastic' is that standard then words to describe others either haven't yet been invented or are beyond the realms of human conception.
It's like when Merson calls a routine shot stopping save a 'worldie'. There's literally nowhere else to go after that.
Maybe we should try to mould him into someone who can dictate our play from Midfield. I think for us in a high tempo game, he's probably not a winger. He's a good passer, has vison and can be scholesque now and then. I think as a number 10 right now he's not got 'it' and we've better options. However centrally, he can link things up and the more touches the more he'll settle into games and become more involved. People are talking about Adnan as a number 10, or shinji but neither are ready to replace a Rooney when fit and firing on all cylinders. Besides we've other great young players who have that forward potential.
I don't think as a number 10 he will make it here long term as things stand
I don't think as a number 10 he will make it here long term as things stand
Agree the hype around players is annoying but that's what sky (mostly) has created to enhance their product. We as the public buy into this, but when the national team plays we are confused when all these so called world class players struggle to beat the likes of Armenia and Macedonias of this world.
He's put in some outstanding performances especially the one at Madrid last season. I think everyone knows Dannys major flaw but it's getting better. I think his potential is fantastic but right now it doesn't even matter. I think the fact he's home grown, it's only natural to be happy considering if we wanted him, he'd probably spend his whole career here. People always love that kind of thing. I think right now he's a good player personally with great potential. Hope he keeps on improving.
We have better players in Welbeck's position (RvP, Rooney). Unfortunately they are injured. He is 3/4 choice striker at United. He's certainly not one of elite strikers in the world. However, with our present squad and system played he is more vital to United's chances of winning a game than Kagawa even when Rooney and RvP are fit.
If he were an Italian international leading the line for his country at 21 at a major tournament with that price tag, rather than a youth academy lad from Longsight- with his touch, athleticism, link up play, work rate and tactical understanding and now an almost goal a game scoring rate in the league when played up front, he'd be rated as one of the top striking prospects in Europe.
It's a tricky one. At the moment we have a lot of players who can and are performing well centrally but we lack quality out wide so I think a narrower system, which should allow us to play faster and more fluid football
------Carrick----Fletcher----
???-----Kagawa--Januzaj
-------------Welbeck----------
I think that has to be our team against Chelsea if Rooney is still out. As we showed against Swansea those players can play some very nice football. I think it would be unfair to drop Kagawa as he played really well in the second half. Him and Januzaj are very intelligent players, and Welbeck works great with them too.
???-----Kagawa--Januzaj
-------------Welbeck----------
I think that has to be our team against Chelsea if Rooney is still out. As we showed against Swansea those players can play some very nice football. I think it would be unfair to drop Kagawa as he played really well in the second half. Him and Januzaj are very intelligent players, and Welbeck works great with them too.
He doesn't play as a winger for Japan though, he plays from the left as an inside forward. In fact, he seems to be able to go wherever he wants. When on the left at United he seems to be expected to play as an out and out winger. He's not a winger.
Just watched our game.
On Kagawa, like others have said, the most accurate description seems to be a "multiplier". Some fans will fancy that. Others will not but from his second half performance,it brings up the question what sort of balance will we be looking to achieve?
When Shinji is played in his favored position, he likes to come deep and try to build up play through the centre or wide areas. As someone else mentioned, his choice of passing is different to Danny and Rooney's, as the latter likes to play long diagonals to switch play (mainly to Valencia). From a defensive standpoint, he is helpful in the sense that he often doesnt get dragged out of position. This allows our midfield to form a 1-2 partnership with the 2 midfielders (Carrick, Fletch) sitting a bit deeper protecting the back 4, while the third midfielder (Shinji) acts as a sort of defensive pivot to try and force the opposition to either flank. I thought we achieved this well against Swansea and it meant they had to commit runners to different areas and switch the ball wide, rather than playing in between our defensive lines consistently.
I think Moyes has started to appreciate what Kagawa does more. There's been a gradual progression of Kagawa playing slighlty deeper than he did before. In the earlier parts of the season, he was essentially a second striker. We may get away with this in Europe but in the EPL and Shinji's size, it's hard to see how we're going to benefit if we use him in this way. Irwhine and a few others made the point about what Kagawa dropping just 5-10 yards did for our midfield. It's these sort of nuances that can make a lot of difference.
So once again, this brings up a balance question that won't be easy for Moyes to answer. Danny and Rooney play the 10 position more like strikers. Rooney likes to switch play then dart into the box. Danny likes to check into wide midfield areas to try and open up spaces and then use his pace and movement to try and open up spaces for his teammates. But they both prefer to play higher than Shinji. There will certainly be games where we are better off playing two strikers vs 1 striker & a pure CAM. Personally, I feel like we should use the latter against Chelsea but in football, there are a lot of options and hopefully what this season has showed is despite our poor form, we still have some diverse options in this squad that can be useful.
Regarding Januzaj & Kagawa, it's interesting watching them because you would think these are players who would be constantly be in-sync. Not sure if anyone else observed this but there seemed to be a few times where they got in each other's way. Adnan took a dribble into the box and Kagawa had to jump out of the way to make it easier for Adnan to continue his run. In a nutshell, their productivity at times seemed independent of each other. I guess that can be a good or a bad thing.
Adnan wasn't great at the 10 position due to his inexperience and also the shape of our team. Our backline was getting too deep which meant our midfield was stretched and so he would drop deep just to spring an attack after we win the ball but it left a lot more work to do as he didn have a lot of attacking options around him. Kagawa was more suited to it but you would expect that due to his experience as a CAM. In time, Adnan will learn. It's a good learning experience for him but for right now, I think he works well on the wing as that allows him to express his individuality more.
In terms of who made the difference, that depends on how you define what it means to be the difference. I think both made telling impacts in their own way and for Adnan, it was seen more as end-product whereas with Kagawa, it was how he chose to "multiply" & quicken our play in midfield.
I doubt he will play at the 10 v Chelsea as I think Moyes will go with Rooney and Welbeck with Kagawa on the left but it would be nice to see. Just not sure Moyes is willing to take that kind of gamble.
On Kagawa, like others have said, the most accurate description seems to be a "multiplier". Some fans will fancy that. Others will not but from his second half performance,it brings up the question what sort of balance will we be looking to achieve?
When Shinji is played in his favored position, he likes to come deep and try to build up play through the centre or wide areas. As someone else mentioned, his choice of passing is different to Danny and Rooney's, as the latter likes to play long diagonals to switch play (mainly to Valencia). From a defensive standpoint, he is helpful in the sense that he often doesnt get dragged out of position. This allows our midfield to form a 1-2 partnership with the 2 midfielders (Carrick, Fletch) sitting a bit deeper protecting the back 4, while the third midfielder (Shinji) acts as a sort of defensive pivot to try and force the opposition to either flank. I thought we achieved this well against Swansea and it meant they had to commit runners to different areas and switch the ball wide, rather than playing in between our defensive lines consistently.
I think Moyes has started to appreciate what Kagawa does more. There's been a gradual progression of Kagawa playing slighlty deeper than he did before. In the earlier parts of the season, he was essentially a second striker. We may get away with this in Europe but in the EPL and Shinji's size, it's hard to see how we're going to benefit if we use him in this way. Irwhine and a few others made the point about what Kagawa dropping just 5-10 yards did for our midfield. It's these sort of nuances that can make a lot of difference.
So once again, this brings up a balance question that won't be easy for Moyes to answer. Danny and Rooney play the 10 position more like strikers. Rooney likes to switch play then dart into the box. Danny likes to check into wide midfield areas to try and open up spaces and then use his pace and movement to try and open up spaces for his teammates. But they both prefer to play higher than Shinji. There will certainly be games where we are better off playing two strikers vs 1 striker & a pure CAM. Personally, I feel like we should use the latter against Chelsea but in football, there are a lot of options and hopefully what this season has showed is despite our poor form, we still have some diverse options in this squad that can be useful.
Regarding Januzaj & Kagawa, it's interesting watching them because you would think these are players who would be constantly be in-sync. Not sure if anyone else observed this but there seemed to be a few times where they got in each other's way. Adnan took a dribble into the box and Kagawa had to jump out of the way to make it easier for Adnan to continue his run. In a nutshell, their productivity at times seemed independent of each other. I guess that can be a good or a bad thing.
Adnan wasn't great at the 10 position due to his inexperience and also the shape of our team. Our backline was getting too deep which meant our midfield was stretched and so he would drop deep just to spring an attack after we win the ball but it left a lot more work to do as he didn have a lot of attacking options around him. Kagawa was more suited to it but you would expect that due to his experience as a CAM. In time, Adnan will learn. It's a good learning experience for him but for right now, I think he works well on the wing as that allows him to express his individuality more.
In terms of who made the difference, that depends on how you define what it means to be the difference. I think both made telling impacts in their own way and for Adnan, it was seen more as end-product whereas with Kagawa, it was how he chose to "multiply" & quicken our play in midfield.
I doubt he will play at the 10 v Chelsea as I think Moyes will go with Rooney and Welbeck with Kagawa on the left but it would be nice to see. Just not sure Moyes is willing to take that kind of gamble.
If it is true that Rooney has no intention of signing a new contract and is set to leave, which Moyes will have a better idea about than we do on the back of media speculation, I see no reason to pussyfoot around trying to keep Rooney happy by playing him in his best position regardless of the greater good. Meaning maybe we should be seeing more of Kagawa in the middle and Rooney on the left, on the basis that Rooney is more versatile and is capable of putting in very good performances on the wing. Rooney is still the better player but what he gives you can be delivered from a number of different positions, Rooney could even be playing more up front in Van Persie's absence, with Kagawa behind, if and when the time comes to give Welbeck a break. I really do like the look of Kagawa in the middle and surely a run there will help him achieve greater consistency. And it will give us a better sense of how we will fare with him in that position if and when Rooney moves on, whether Kagawa will be the future in that position, as i think he can be, or whether Moyes feels he wants to strengthen there.
http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/manchesterunited/id/3988?cc=3436
While scouts scour Europe, Kagawa flirts with his best form
Andy Mitten
While scouts scour Europe, Kagawa flirts with his best form
Andy Mitten
It's probably what is keeping him from performing to his top level this season. I believe that if we hadn't have scored that goal so early on that gave confidence to the entire team that Shinji would not have had half as good a game that he did even through switching to the middle. He is a huge confidence player, and it showed what a difference two halves and one goal can make.Once the team grew confident and moved around a lot more, so did Kagawa with his passing and movement, and it looked so much more fluid than usual. This confidence can be used on the left wing too, but of course it is the less preferred option.
The issue of confidence is why Id love to see him get a run in his preferred position, because it would give him (hopefully) greater lasting confidence, so it isnt up and down from one game to the next depending on whether we are winning or losing on the day, but rests on the more secure foundation of having delivered consistently over a longer period and shown what you can do to the fans and the manager.
That doesn't happen though. He's rarely on the wing.
A couple of things that concern me in that article. The first is that we aren't looking for a winger, which in my eyes is equally as important as signing a new central midfielder, and secondly, that the coaches seem to think Kagawa is better on the left, I've seen no evidence of that in any of his performances for us there. He can't beat a player when he's facing them, he's almost completely reliant on having options around him, and playing him on the left means he has half as many options as he would have playing through the centre.
This explains why he was better in Germany
“Shinji said Dortmund could play any of the bottom six and win the game at 60 percent,”
“They would keep the ball for 60 minutes and then go bang, bang, bang and win the game easily. There are no 70 percent league games in England.”
“Shinji said Dortmund could play any of the bottom six and win the game at 60 percent,”
“They would keep the ball for 60 minutes and then go bang, bang, bang and win the game easily. There are no 70 percent league games in England.”
I've thought that for a while. The overall quality of the lesser teams has improved further this year too in the Premiership.
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