Shinji Kagawa

[Inigo Montoya]

In fact Kagawa is just short of recovering the ball as much as Oscar at Chelsea, a bit more than Willian, far more than Schurrle and a million miles more than Hazard. I suspect Mourinho would be happy with him

I'd rather have Oscar,Hazard and Willian than Kagawa.If Mourinho wanted a player like Kagawa he'd sign him knowing that he doesn't start, and that he's subbed more often than not

 

[Kag]

From the standpoint of a fanboy, clearly!

You're not even debating my posts. I've broke it down above, quite simply, yet you still haven't explained how he doesn't try hard enough off the ball. Not one explanation. You know that because you've referred to calling me a fanboy for nothing more than defending the effort of one of our players; something I've done a lot of in regards to everyone. Sadly, there are people who genuinely believe that these players go out there not to win, not to try, and to pick up a cheque at the end of the week. Well I don't get that impression, and certainly not from Kagawa. And I'd refute your point irrespective of the player, from Nani to Valencia to Ferdinand.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Yeah, movement.

Kagawa's coach and mentor in Japan clearly stated that Kagawa's biggest strength wasn't his techinique or creativity, but his intense, constant and clever off-the-ball movement. Kagawa got the best BEEP-test scores sice Beckham. Hardly a coinscidence.

You can criticize Kagawa for a lot of things. Lack of confidence, lack of aggression, lack of strength, too unselfish, and too unwilling to take on players etc. This is all valid critique. But there are 3 things that Kagawa excels at to a degree that's so high that it would be preposterous to criticise it, seeing as he's right up there with the very best: off-the-ball movement, technique, and football intelligence. In these aspects, he's among the best in the league. And if we change our style to better accomodate these skillsets, then Kagawa will obviously play better. And that is why I'm so happy we signed Mata. Like some other people have posted, it truly is a blessing in disguise.

What you say is indisputable but Moyes won't play both...I'm not sure SAF ever played 2 midfielders like these 2 in the same game, Keane and Ince, Keane and Scholes, Scholes and Carrick...somehow I just don't see Mata and Kagawa

 

[mic.m]

We could win 5-3 evcery game or lose5-3...bit like Tommy Docherty's Utd

just until the end of the season. We are leaking goals already but creating fcuk all. In the summer with a brand new midfielder and fit Carrick, Fellaini, Fletcher we could play a more solid team.

 

[Mad Winger]

What you say is indisputable but Moyes won't play both...I'm not sure SAF ever played 2 midfielders like these 2 in the same game, Keane and Ince, Keane and Scholes, Scholes and Carrick...somehow I just don't see Mata and Kagawa

They would't play in CM, though.

--- Carrick - Fletcher ---
Januzaj - Mata - Kagawa

Sign Vidal and Coentrao as well, and we easily have the best team in the PL, and possibly top 3 in Europe.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

You're not even debating my posts. I've broke it down above, quite simply, yet you still haven't explained how he doesn't try hard enough off the ball. Not one explanation. You know that because you've referred to calling me a fanboy for nothing more than defending the effort of one of our players; something I've done a lot of in regards to everyone. Sadly, there are people who genuinely believe that these players go out there not to win, not to try, and to pick up a cheque at the end of the week. Well I don't get that impression, and certainly not from Kagawa. And I'd refute your point irrespective of the player, from Nani to Valencia to Ferdinand.

I've no idea why Nani,Valencia or Ferdinand have to do with this.And I don't believe I ever stated that he was here to pick up a cheque nor that he didn't try.

I think your arguments are beginning to get a bit clouded by your love of Kagawa

 

[Inigo Montoya]

They would't play in CM, though.

--- Carrick - Fletcher ---
Januzaj - Mata - Kagawa

Sign Vidal and Coentrao as well, and we easily have the best team in the PL, and possibly top 3-4 in Europe.

We will again, just need to forget about this one..it's gone

 

[surf]

just until the end of the season. We are leaking goals already but creating fcuk all. In the summer with a brand new midfielder and fit Carrick, Fellaini, Fletcher we could play a more solid team.

Dunno. All 3 have question marks over them IMO. How were Carrick and Fletch against Sunderland? I don't want to derail a Kagawa thread, but my point is that we need one or two midfielders better than them.

 

[Kag]

I've no idea why Nani,Valencia or Ferdinand have to do with this.And I don't believe I ever stated that he was here to pick up a cheque nor that he didn't try.

I think your arguments are beginning to get a bit clouded by your love of Kagawa

You did suggest he didn't try hard enough. I was touching on other random players as a way of reinforcing my wider point of when it comes to effort, which your original point was to do with, I'll debate that with anybody about pretty much any player at the club.

And no, they're not. You know they're not. That's just an easy escape from the debate, a debate in which you've yet to back up your point. It's all there on the previous. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[mic.m]

Dunno. All 3 have question marks over them IMO. How were Carrick and Fletch against Sunderland? I don't want to derail a Kagawa thread, but my point is that we need one or two midfielders better than them.

they were poor like everyone else not named Januzaj, Smalling and Evans.

 

[::sonny::]

A quite useless player, now, rightly, on his way out.

 

[acnumber9]

If he wins the ball more than the other options bar Valencia its a very weird thing to suggest he doesn't do enough when we dont have the ball. That doesn't mean he's always in the right place, but it certainly means he's more active than Young, Januzaj, Nani and Rooney when we dont have it.

Defending isn't just about winning the ball though. It's tracking runners and closing off passing options and forcing teams back that play as big a part. You could win the ball twice a game and do feck all else. If it was just about the stats then why would a manager pick Young for being better defensively?

 

[::sonny::]

Defending isn't just about winning the ball though. It's tracking runners and closing off passing options and forcing teams back that play as big a part. You could win the ball twice a game and do feck all else. If it was just about the stats then why would a manager pick Young for being better defensively?

This

Bravo

 

[Buchan]

A quite useless player, now, rightly, on his way out.

Oh, dear.

 

[adexkola]

I meant holding midfielder ie Busquets.

Fair enough, I will say Xavi is as close as one can come to the generalist midfielder, as compared to specialists like Cazorla et al

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Defending isn't just about winning the ball though. It's tracking runners and closing off passing options and forcing teams back that play as big a part. You could win the ball twice a game and do feck all else. If it was just about the stats then why would a manager pick Young for being better defensively?

True. And in a system which is not about collective pressing (something Kagawa undoubtedly masters better than any of our other offensive players) those other aspects are all the more important. As is, arguably, width - that is the "ability" to remain on the wing when you, er, play on the wing.

I'm not saying we should favour such a system - but the fact is that we have done so often enough. And then it makes sense to play Young over Kagawa, even though it's blatantly obvious who the better player is.

 

[adexkola]

True. And in a system which is not about collective pressing (something Kagawa undoubtedly masters better than any of our other offensive players) those other aspects are all the more important. As is, arguably, width - that is the "ability" to remain on the wing when you, er, play on the wing.

I'm not saying we should favour such a system - but the fact is that we have done so often enough. And then it makes sense to play Young over Kagawa, even though it's blatantly obvious who the better player is.

I think it's sad we're coming up with justifications to play Young over Kagawa in any instance. Even more so when Young proved to be utterly useless.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I think it's sad we're coming up with justifications to play Young over Kagawa in any instance. Even more so when Young proved to be utterly useless.

Fine line between an explanation and a justification, I suppose.

 

[psychdelicblues]

True. And in a system which is not about collective pressing (something Kagawa undoubtedly masters better than any of our other offensive players) those other aspects are all the more important. As is, arguably, width - that is the "ability" to remain on the wing when you, er, play on the wing.

I'm not saying we should favour such a system - but the fact is that we have done so often enough. And then it makes sense to play Young over Kagawa, even though it's blatantly obvious who the better player is.

Good post. My first thoughts was the signing of Mata will push Kagawa further down the pecking order and maybe out the club. But maybe the signing of Mata means Moyes wants to change the system, and his preference for Young is because of the obvious deficiencies in midfield. There is no doubt United will strengthen in midfield in the next 2 transfer windows, so I still feel Kagawa has an important future at the club even under Moyes.

 

[sammsky1]

Only has a future if Young and Valencia leave the club. Have way too may classy players fighting for too few positions.

 

[Lawman]

The kid needs proactive players around him to bring out the best in him. Players who will makes runs of him and around him. We have too many reactive players who like the ball to feet from a standing position instead of on the run. This doesn't bring the best out of him and your pressing point is excellent also.

 

[DocRockter]

Klopp likes him so if possible, let's make him a part of the Gundogan deal.. He isn't a good enough player for the Premier League. He cannot shoot, doesn't know how to prevent a counter, De Gea doesn't even use him on the post.. He simply isn't fast enough with the ball nor is he strong enough without it.

I absolutely would keep Valencia ahead of him, he can at least defend and get the ball forward quickly and run the counter..

 

[100]

I was thinking that Mata could have a positive effect on him, there's at least something now forcing Moyes to look away from getting it down the wing and punting the ball into the box.

 

[Devil1]

I was thinking that Mata could have a positive effect on him, there's at least something now forcing Moyes to look away from getting it down the wing and punting the ball into the box.

I agree completely, for me kagawa's movement, close control and ability to take and give short range passes is out of place in our current team. You can't expect carrick, jones or even januzaj to keep up with him as their centre of gravity is so much higher. As a result he takes the ball on the turn looking for the quick one-two but there's often no one there. I think they will be a joy to watch with rvp reaping the rewards. The big question is will rooney be able to keep up with mata and kagawa.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I agree completely, for me kagawa's movement, close control and ability to take and give short range passes is out of place in our current team. You can't expect carrick, jones or even januzaj to keep up with him as their centre of gravity is so much higher. As a result he takes the ball on the turn looking for the quick one-two but there's often no one there. I think they will be a joy to watch with rvp reaping the rewards. The big question is will rooney be able to keep up with mata and kagawa.

I wouldn't' go so far. Kagawa is also clearly suffering from a lack of self belief which is leading to him being quite passive. Let's see if he can overcome that and properly impose and express himself first before wondering whether the likes of Rooney and Carrick can keep up with him.

 

[DevilRed]

Still young enough to improve and we have to wait and see if Moyes will start changing our formation/tactics now that we have Mata on board. Common sense tells us that he will link up well with Mata and the return of Rooney/RVP will only help.

 

[Ekeke]

Defending isn't just about winning the ball though. It's tracking runners and closing off passing options and forcing teams back that play as big a part. You could win the ball twice a game and do feck all else. If it was just about the stats then why would a manager pick Young for being better defensively?

Young doesn't track back particularly well either. He either isnt being picked for "being better defensively" and thats just something someone other than our manager has come up with, or he has a reputation that reality doesnt agree with. Kagawa is a better defensive option

 

[Devil1]

I wouldn't' go so far. Kagawa is also clearly suffering from a lack of self belief which is leading to him being quite passive. Let's see if he can overcome that and properly impose and express himself first before wondering whether the likes of Rooney and Carrick can keep up with him.

I agree with the self belief issue but I think it all stems from him expecting players to be on his wavelength which they are not. At Dortmund he had similar style players and even with japan he has similar players. At united this season we have had big midfielders and fast wingers. We win the ball work it out to the winger and the full backs overlap to cross then repeat, repeat, repeat. I for one hope we get to see rooney, kagawa and mata play behind rvp.

 

[DevilRed]

Young doesn't track back particularly well either. He either isnt being picked for "being better defensively" and thats just something someone other than our manager has come up with, or he has a reputation that reality doesnt agree with. Kagawa is a better defensive option

His performance in the chelski match was a joke. We got absolutely slaughtered down that flank. Jones was to blame too.

Its so frustrating that Kagawa doesn't get a run out simply because the perception is that Young is more defensively responsible. Bollocks.

 

[Sphaero]

Klopp likes him so if possible, let's make him a part of the Gundogan deal.. He isn't a good enough player for the Premier League. He cannot shoot, doesn't know how to prevent a counter, De Gea doesn't even use him on the post.. He simply isn't fast enough with the ball nor is he strong enough without it.

I absolutely would keep Valencia ahead of him, he can at least defend and get the ball forward quickly and run the counter..

Kagawa without a doubt has not set the league on fire and a good portion of that comes down to himself, because he was simply too passive and devoid of most of his confidence so far. However, this description does not do him the least bit of justice.

His shooting technique is actually pretty damn good, especially if we take in account that he has two usuable feet for that, which is more than what can be said about some other United players. He simply does not take aim often enough, which is again rooted in his lack of confidence.

Honestly, if you would give me such a list of flaws of a player, I would bet large amounts of money on him not making it for a day in Dortmund´s system, let alone flourish in it.

His pace with and without the ball is not out of this world, but he is sure as hell not slow. Klopp does not use slow attackers, which was why one of his first acts as Dortmund´s manager was to get rid of the players who lacked pace.

Saying that he is bad at running counters or preventing them is pretty ironic, given that Dortmund is the fastest and arguably best counter attacking team in the world and Kagawa was a key player there. The biggest downside of Klopp´s system is vulnerability towards counters, because of the extremely high defense line and emphasis on directness, which results in a pretty low overall pass accuracy. Kagawa would have been an unacceptable liability there, if he would not know how to stop a counter. He was in that regard the second best offensive player who has ever played under Klopp. Even at United, who don´t run something that is even close to a pressing system he is one of the best offensive players in terms of intercepting.

Now you can say that his time at Dortmund does not matter, but it gives at least a certain indication what profile Kagawa has as a player.

 

[Earthquake]

Disappointed at the way things are working out for him here, he was a joy to watch at Dortmund, and I had huge hopes for him at United.

 

[Stack]

A quite useless player, now, rightly, on his way out.

the guy can play a bit, a quality player.

 

[DocRockter]

His shooting technique is actually pretty damn good, especially if we take in account that he has two usuable feet for that, which is more than what can be said about some other United players. He simply does not take aim often enough, which is again rooted in his lack of confidence.


Now you can say that his time at Dortmund does not matter, but it gives at least a certain indication what profile Kagawa has as a player.

1. How many times we've seen him with ball inside or just outside the box and the shot barely made it to the keeper?? I'd say he's got one of the slowest releases on the team and that makes it very hard for him to score.. Of course he hits it right every once in a while but not even all of those are a great scoring chance 'cause of his strength.

2. Of course it matters, that's why SAF co. bought him at a high price but maybe the speed of the Premier League is just too fast for a guy who hasn't got the skill set to manage that with his short-range passing..

 

[Plugsy]

I like him but a player of his calibre shouldn't need the protection of always playing solely in his 'preferred' position. Sometimes you have to step up and make the most of it or fit into a system that may not accommodate your ideal. If you had a team full of people said "I can only really play there", you're in trouble. It's not like we've asked him to play centre-back either. You'd expect a bit of adaptability with most players at this level.

 

[Kag]

I was thinking that Mata could have a positive effect on him, there's at least something now forcing Moyes to look away from getting it down the wing and punting the ball into the box.

I agree. People discuss his possibility of leaving, however, I'd be irritated with Kagawa himself if he was thinking of leaving now. More down to the fact that signings like Mata is a step in the right direction for the club as a whole. Van Persie was a step in the right direction. Kagawa himself, at the time, was universally agreed as a step in the right direction.

Finally, it looks like we're getting ourselves into a position of having some real technical ability all over the park. A front four of Van Persie, Rooney, Mata and Januzaj is potentially insane for this very reason. If you then factor in the likes of Nani, Kagawa and Welbeck then you've got a squad's worth of attackers that can sing off of the same hymn sheet. Why buy Mata, then instantly negate the team's potential by getting rid of players that can, in theory, all work well together? The likes of Young have to go, and I do think Moyes will head down this route. I hope so, anyway. We need to create an identity around this group of players, and get rid of those who don't fit.

Another thing I think gets forgotten in the midst of debate is his age. He's still only 24. Plenty of scope for improvement, a poor season so far notwithstanding. I don't think we should be getting rid of youth. We need to be giving it a chance all over the field. I think Moyes wants to do this.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

Signing Mata will surely only benefit Kagawa. Another player in his ilk, and it does look as if we're moving towards the 4-2-3-1 which is swell.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

1. How many times we've seen him with ball inside or just outside the box and the shot barely made it to the keeper?? I'd say he's got one of the slowest releases on the team and that makes it very hard for him to score.. Of course he hits it right every once in a while but not even all of those are a great scoring chance 'cause of his strength. ..

Great point.

Must be why he was 4th on the team in scoring last year with far fewer appearances.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

I like him but a player of his calibre shouldn't need the protection of always playing solely in his 'preferred' position. Sometimes you have to step up and make the most of it or fit into a system that may not accommodate your ideal. If you had a team full of people said "I can only really play there", you're in trouble. It's not like we've asked him to play centre-back either. You'd expect a bit of adaptability with most players at this level.

So, you want to get rid of Smalling?

 

[NoLogo]

Imo he works best playing in a fast team like Dortmund. Since we look much more like a team that wants to play the possession game I doubt he will ever work to the extend he worked for Dortmund. Mata will probably fit this style much better and his transfer won't really increase Shinji's chances of starting games for us. I think it's best for both parties if he leaves in the summer if he gets a good offer that is.

 

[Mad Winger]

Imo he works best playing in a fast team like Dortmund. Since we look much more like a team that wants to play the possession game I doubt he will ever work to the extend he worked for Dortmund. Mata will probably fit this style much better and his transfer won't really increase Shinji's chances of starting games for us. I think it's best for both parties if he leaves in the summer if he gets a good offer that is.

Japan plays a much more possession based style than Dortmund, but he thrives there as well. Also, his coach and mentor in Japan has said that the team that's perfect for Kagawa, is Barcelona.

Possession is not the problem. Lack of movement is. We're by far the most static top team out there, and that's because we play with a slow, static central midfield, and a striker instead of an attacking midfielder behind the main targetman. Hopefully the Mata signing will change our style for the better.